Steve:

In researching MPD(now Dissociative Identity Disorder) I've heard professionals say everything from 'quite rare' to 'occurs more often than you might think' -- realizing that both of those could be referring to exactly the same frequency of occurrence.

It is way more easy to believe that she was just acting in some slightly deceitful fashion, like a sociopath(but not, I only hope, a psychopath, as well.)

What makes this difficult to accept is(doesn't mean it isn't true)is that we knew her for slightly over 6 years, and for the first half of that, quite well.    My ex and she both worked in the same small sales office, they had lunch every day  together for 3 years.   We'd see her socially, often. She was in our wedding in 1976.    For a year, we didn't see her at all-- we moved up to Boston, but in the period after, although we didn't see her as often socially, we'd still see her on occasion, every few months.    In all that time, with us, she was never odd with money, or even 'cheap' when we were all out together(like sticking us with the bill).   She was 'quirky' -- a little ditzy, in a totally nothreatening, fun way.    Example: she was fearless when it came to any kind of discussion.   She not only had an opinion, she had a strong opinion, and would express it strongly-- even when she mangled it.   The less she knew about a topic, the stronger her opinion.   It was kind of funny.    She was fun to go out to dinner with, always made you laugh with her comments.

Of course, we were all in our twentysomethings then, and the opportunities for 'extortion' were limited, but my ex and I were both employed, no children, and it isn't like we were struggling, either.   Her two boyfriends that we knew her to be with over a long period of time both expressed the same thing-- she'd never been odd around them in terms of 'extortion' of money or any odd criminal behavior; she was, absolutely, the last person any of us would ever think of when it comes to criminal or even threatenting behavior of any kind.   She was petite -- 5'4", a little curly haired dimpled slightly ditzy pixey;  a young professional 'mini-librarian.'    I once observed, if the Notre Dame mascot had a girlfriend, she would look like Beth.

The oddest thing I ever witnessed her do was actually kind of endearing.   Ironically, it occurred in the driveway of her boss's home, where her and my ex were housesitting while he and his children were off alone a couple months after his wife/their mother passed from leukemia.   It was Jan 1977,  a little more than two years before the murder at the same home.     They were housesitting for him-- the office they both worked at was only five minutes away,  it was a weekend, and I took the train home from school, hitched to the house.  When I got there, she was in the driveway working on her metallic silver 'Barricuda.'   She had drained the oil out of the car...and it was running down the driveway(!).   Made a mess.    She was also changing the spark plugs, but didn't realize it mattered in what order she reconnected the wires, and she had duffed it up.      (She was fearless on topics she knew nothing about...)    I cleaned all that up, straightened out the wires for her, and she was disapointed/embarrassed because she wanted to do it herself, but she got over it.  A little ditzy.    OK, this executive secretary was not overly mechanically inclined, but she wasn't threatening or dangerous, just a little ditzy.   My ex had no idea she was outside doing any of this, and we all laughed about it. Like, 'What the Hell were you doing???'    It was endearing; ditzy Beth.  But that was it.

Sometime during the third quarter of 1981, the Commonwealth of PA, after she was found "naked, catatonic, hiding in a closet, clutching a knife" and after hearing testimony from about 30 people at her subsequent commitment hearing who described her with different names and backgrounds, believed she was enough of a threat to herself or others to commit her for 90 days, after which, she pretty much effectively, if not factually, vanished from the face of the earth, except for rare anonymous cards and phone calls to her brother, according to him.

Here are the leads; pick one.

1] She's recently dead but with no record of her death.

2] She's long dead but with no record of her death.

3] She's a bag lady somewhere dropped way off the grid.

4] She's in WITSEC as part of testimony against Nicky Scarfo. (Has had halp to vanish.)

5] She's running a wellness clinic in Boston under a new fabricated identity.  (Ala Frank Abignale).

6] She's running a gift shop in Sarasota, FL under another name.

She was in her late twenties when she went 'into the system' for 90 days.    Privacy laws protect those records, although a grand jury investigating a murder case could unseal them...if directed by the DA guiding the GJ investigation.     She was an adult when this happened; she did not invite her family to the hearing, they had no idea any of this was happening.    The only person who might officially have a clue where she went when she was released was her assigned 'advocate' -- and even the identity of that advocate is protected information.     She has officially 'vanished' without a trace by way of that 90 day commitment process...

That is some catch, that Catch-22.   What happens to people who pass through that 'system' designed to protect their privacy?    That should be a lesson to anyone who gets involved with that system.  It can, by design, swallow up any trace of you.  Without a subpoena, there is no way to 'follow' you through that rabbit-hole, once you fall in...make sure you have an advocate with standing -- like a family member and/or a health care professional you know and trust(not just someone who is assigned as an advocate), who is aware of the proceedings.

Steve, we've pondered the approach you suggest, but as a group, mainly because of our own possibly unhealthy compulsions, we aren't ready to give up on the ending.

We are all, all of us, a little nutz sometimes.

regards,

Fred

So readers better understand the deep background motivating this poll and its comments, here are some posts and quotes from the early days of this site under the old Sense of Life Objectivists (SOLO) banner:

A local Objectivist Club would most appeal to me if it focused on: (poll)

Top two responses: friendship formation and getting laid.

A Proto-Objectivist Argument for Lifelong Monogamy?

Comment 1: "I'm sure Luke by now knows that it's bad procedure to contrive one's reasoning to lead to a pre-determined conclusion, as he admitted doing in this old article. I wonder if he's totally shaken off the ethic he was brought up in, though? As you say, ... the alternatives offered—life-long monogamy or wanton promiscuity—add up to yet another phony dichotomy."

A Proto-Objectivist Defense of Teetotaling?

General agreement that drunkenness is bad but an occasional buzz is good.

JOE versus SAM (Justified by Others' Esteem versus Self Assured Man)

Comment 6: "I think the issue is that Joe thinks a relationship will solve all his problems, and fulfill him completely - a viewpoint which would cause him to become clingy and desperate. It's not so much that Sam places less importance on a relationship, more that he is able to maintain his independence. Joe, on the other hand, believes that his happiness depends on other people."

Houseguests from Hell

Comment 1: "Luke they wanted you to at least *try* to make a move on them. When you didn't they were hurt."

Questions and Motives

From the article: "You're nineteen and you're still a virgin?"

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/07, 6:06am)

When a man goes out on a first date, for the most part, his worst, reasonable worry is that he might make a bad decision - a voluntary decision. And/or, that she might not like him and he'll feel rejected.

When a woman goes out on a first date her worst, reasonable worry is that she might be raped or beaten - she knows the odds are quite low but it does happen.

Most of the women I've known don't hold that in the front of their mind... they take some precautions, like meeting the guy somewhere so he won't know where they live till they know him better, but all and all they look forward to going out and hope it will be fun and maybe turn into something worth while.

Some men I've met are never too far from images of some kind of disaster: getting taken to the cleaners, humiliated, rejected, saddled with a bad relationship, carved up by a gold-digger, etc. As if these things could spring out from behind a bush like some overpowering monster that takes them by force.

Sometimes when I ponder this difference between the sexes, I have to conclude that there are areas where men come out looking like cowards.  But, in our favor I have to point out that we males, at least in this culture, were raised to focus on efficacy and productivity and making things work and we were given subtle messages that we would get love in exchange for being good at what we do. Women were raised to feel lovable in and of themselves.  Men, too often, go to women with their accomplishments held out as offerings... in hopes that they will be loved.  Since feeling lovable is one side of the self-esteem coin, it is not a good thing to have failure in a relationship leading to forever feeling unlovable and unworthy.  That, I think, is why so some men either avoid relationships, or treat them like a game - and try to 'score' or just hit homeruns - instead of seeking a serious relationship.

Luke:

I tend to agree.    It would be less so, if these choices and their consequences were born mostly by the practitioners, but they inevitably spill out into other areas of public debate, and turn themselves into demands for subsidy of the consequences.

Or worse; a tainted blood supply that ends up killing the odd 4 yr old hemophiliac, to which is said "Sorry, but we really had a driving need to indiscriminately rub one out mutually with a willing bit of warm flesh."

At least nominal serial monogamy is apparently an unbearable hairshirt, and an impediment to the pathways in service mainly to dopamine.

Dopamine is very persuasive drug.

There is a recent local murder case; a 50+ yr old stepfather murdered his twentysomething stepdaughter-- shot her in the back of the head --  then videotaped himself having sex with her corpse, which has been found on his computer, one assumes, for ready playback of the event.     If he had assaulted her before murdering her, it would have been an 'agravating' circumstance, and he would have been eligible for the death penalty.   Because sex with a corpse is only a misdemeanor and not a felony, no death penalty.   He can be aditionally charged with abusing a corpse.   It's mind boggling.

Below reptilian.   There are some sick mofos in the world who can justify almost anything to get the dopamine flowing.

He'll have a trial, a conviction, a new orange wardrobe, stories to tell his new BFFs, and three squares for the rest of his miserable life, when what is needed is two Jeeps in stump puller low and a pair of re-usable chains, videotaped with his own camera, and played back for anyone else so inclined.

regards,

Fred

Since respondents overwhelmingly favored locating a lifetime soul mate as the purpose of a date, would anyone care to make a concise, explicit distinction between these two concepts?

1. Dating is ...
2. Courtship is ...

I normally associate the former with something very casual and the latter with something very serious with the goal of marriage as the end game.  I hear much conflation of the terms in normal conversation, though.  Even the Merriam-Webster online dictionary has blurred lines between them.

"Dude, Where's My Courtship?" examines the changes in meanings of these key terms and their applications over the last few generations.

The sloppiness of language used on the romance scene explains many of the conflicts seen in these relationships, e.g. meanings of key terms like "love" and "dating" and "marriage" lack precisely equal meanings in the minds of the participants.

What would motivate people to engage in "dating" rather than "courtship"?

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/08, 7:56am)

Luke:

In some cultures there is/was the idea of young men used to ask permission of young women's parents, who would ask their 'intentions' before allowing them to interact with their daughter.   Clearly that doesn't apply these days to the interactions of young adults beyond majority age.    Your examples of 'dating' vs. 'courting' go well into old age.

Do folks date until they start courting?   Is that all intuitive and open to interpretation, or is it ever made explicit?   Do folks ever court from the get-go?    Do folks arrive at their wedding day bewildered and wonder 'How the Hell did we get here???'

You've identified a major source of confusion, because I'd bet the precise transition from dating to courting is a very intuitive thing seldom made explicit.   It would be easier for all involved if we had special color coded shirts made, but even that wouldn't help, considering so much of the activity occurs without clothing (or even, analysis.)

regards,

Fred

Fred,

I have never experienced one of those 'speed dates' but I like the idea.  The idea is that you get a few minutes to choose who you migh want to go on a first date.  The alternative being that you go on a first date that is indeed blind.  You are speeding up the process of weeding out those who have little appeal.  And believe me, there are a lot of women who I would not want to go on a date with, and who I could spot as as such in even less than 5 minutes - perfectly nice women in personality and appearance - but that don't generate any interest.  

I would say that it is NOT a date at all but a way to possibly meet one or two people whose company you are more likely to enjoy.  It is a 'pre-date' - like perusing ads at a singles site, or taking a chance on someone your friends set you up with (two currently popular selection methods) except you actually get to see the real person and talk to real person.

Luke:

The first of that list of three is so broad that I think it covers most ground.    "Lack of appreciation" could include anything from lacking an understanding of what each other want out of life(a common problem I'd think for people who get married too young) to understanding that but taking the other person for granted.

Divorces aren't all the same.    I was with my first wife for ten years; met her as a jr in high school, we got married too young (between my jr and sr of college) for the wrong reasons (primarily, her parents were having problems at home and she/we were eager to get her out of the house; by then, we's been together 4 yrs, had discussed marriage, and so, with mutual youthful hubris, just moved it up for the wrong reason.)   We were married almost six years, when suddenly one day, completely out of the blue(to me)she announced she wanted to split.   After getting over my shock,  a much younger me over-analyzed the event and concluded she was right, if I had no idea this was coming.  Clearly, I wasn't paying attention to her.   And so, I agreed.      We had no children by design at that point-- I'd just started my career, we were fixing up an old 140 yr old farmhouse in the middle of nowhere for three years.    I spent every waking moment either working or re-doing every square inch of the farmhouse-- plumbing, wiring, some foundation, chimney, ... every square inch needed to be redone.  (This had been her desire, and I'd agreed to it.)     We'd just finished it -- the last thing you do is new carpet/floors-- and within a week, she made her sudden announcement.

So, we had an un-contested/no fault six month divorce.   Beyond that, during the early stages of the process, we still 'dated.'   We'd go to dinner with our friends, and then announce our impending divorce over a toast.  (The oddest thing of all is, we still continued to have 'relations' after that, even after she moved out and into her own apartment.   She'd invite me to dinner, then invite me to sleep over.   Even during the split, we still had affection for each other,just, not enough to stay married.)  Our friends thought we were kidding at first, and then, that we were nuts. As odd as it sounds, we were still 'friends.'   There was sadness in our split, but no anger or animosity, but then again,  I was clueless, but just knew, if it was over, then it was over, and if I hadn't seen it coming at all, then she was probably right to pull the plug.    Or, maybe it was a failed 'test' of some kind, and I was really clueless.   It's not like I learned much that was definite from the process, though I tried.   Mostly, make sure you aren't inadvertently taking your spouse for granted.   I'm not sure I so much 'learned' that as, it is the one thing that I carry from that experience. 

I never really fully undestood it, other than in a vague sense that we married too young for the wrong reasons.   There were some external circumstances, stresses; but not the cause; if they were part of the cause, then they broke only that which could be broken.  This was right after the period when we testified at our friend Beth's commitment hearing.   It was disturbing as Hell, and my favorite self-serving theory(the one that doesn't include 'she just got tired of the nerd after ten years')is that the stress of those events triggered her (and ultimately me, a split second after she made her anouncement) to rethink our young lives and where we were going.

It was as if we both wanted to hit the 'reset' button on our young lives, and start new lives that didn't include friends who were MPD, found naked and catatonic and clutching a kitchen knife and so on two years after their boss's daughter had been brutally murdered with a knife.   And the oddest fact is, that about six weeks after this odd split, after filing the papers, she and I agreed to 'see' other people, and within weeks... I met my current wife, my ex met her current husband,  we have both been married to our respective spouses for over thirty years since, and have both raised families and are happily remarried.   New lives.    'Rebounds' not supposed to work out like that, but both did(and I'm as happy for her as I am for me.)

There was no abuse(though, and I'm not sure, but me slaving on that farmhouse for her might have been a kind of inadvertent neglect; it was a brutal march of refurbishing for three years!)nor indifelity, as far as I know.    And in fact, about 3 months after the breakup, she had a momentary change of mind, and was at my door, crying, asking me how I could 'discard' her like that?    The papers had been in process for 3 months at that point, I'd gotten over my shock, had reached my analytical nerd conclusions that what is over, is over, and was moving on.   I knew by then she was involved with someone new, and me as well, and reminded her not only that the split was her idea and a shock to me, but that there were other lives involved now.     I suspect it was just temporary 'cold feet' about going through with it, or, as likely, I misread the whole exercise, like the dense over-analytical nerd that I am.   Either way, I/we/our marriage failed that test.

Within a year of splitting up, we were both remarried.   Six months after that, the now four of us jointly sold the farmhouse and split the net.   There were no children from that first marriage, and so... that was it.   We all signed the deed on the property, shook hands, and haven't talked to each other since.   That was 31 yrs ago.   I wish her and her new family well, and I'm certain she's been a great mom to her kids and wife to her husband.   I hope she found the life she was looking for.

Anyway, this atypical divorce experience for sure makes me no expert in the process.   I was and still am totally clueless about relationships and their demise.   However, the one thing I heavily suspect is, there is no script to read from. and no 'How-To' book that is worth a damn.

regards,

Fred

Pete wrote:

Sometimes it's just about short term validation. We naturally want to feel desired. A date can provide powerful validation and excitement.

I saw this happen quite a bit at my boarding school though I could not explain it this way at the time.  Consider this insight from a recent student there:

People who haven’t known each other for very long begin to date, best friends are made in the matter of a few hours, and these relationships can fall apart just as fast as they formed.

Pete wrote:

Though if they persist, they frequently result in one party hoping that the arrangement becomes more serious/long term, while the other prefers it just be casual or temporary.

I saw this happen, too.  It looked too painful to outweigh any "fun" involved.  No, thanks.

How can one handle these complex emotions productively and coach one's partner to do the same?

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/09, 4:56am)

Fred wrote:

Clearly, I wasn't paying attention to her.

My wife and I have a running joke about this:

"Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!"

Whenever one of us is attempting to focus on a task demanding one's full attention and the other interrupts, that is how the focusing person responds!

It reminds me of what I call The Needy Girlfriend's Mantra:

Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me! ...

See also "Overly Attached Girlfriend" on YouTube:

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/15, 11:26am)