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Post 40

Saturday, December 6, 2014 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

 

In researching MPD(now Dissociative Identity Disorder) I've heard professionals say everything from 'quite rare' to 'occurs more often than you might think' -- realizing that both of those could be referring to exactly the same frequency of occurrence.

 

It is way more easy to believe that she was just acting in some slightly deceitful fashion, like a sociopath(but not, I only hope, a psychopath, as well.)

 

What makes this difficult to accept is(doesn't mean it isn't true)is that we knew her for slightly over 6 years, and for the first half of that, quite well.    My ex and she both worked in the same small sales office, they had lunch every day  together for 3 years.   We'd see her socially, often. She was in our wedding in 1976.    For a year, we didn't see her at all-- we moved up to Boston, but in the period after, although we didn't see her as often socially, we'd still see her on occasion, every few months.    In all that time, with us, she was never odd with money, or even 'cheap' when we were all out together(like sticking us with the bill).   She was 'quirky' -- a little ditzy, in a totally nothreatening, fun way.    Example: she was fearless when it came to any kind of discussion.   She not only had an opinion, she had a strong opinion, and would express it strongly-- even when she mangled it.   The less she knew about a topic, the stronger her opinion.   It was kind of funny.    She was fun to go out to dinner with, always made you laugh with her comments.

 

Of course, we were all in our twentysomethings then, and the opportunities for 'extortion' were limited, but my ex and I were both employed, no children, and it isn't like we were struggling, either.   Her two boyfriends that we knew her to be with over a long period of time both expressed the same thing-- she'd never been odd around them in terms of 'extortion' of money or any odd criminal behavior; she was, absolutely, the last person any of us would ever think of when it comes to criminal or even threatenting behavior of any kind.   She was petite -- 5'4", a little curly haired dimpled slightly ditzy pixey;  a young professional 'mini-librarian.'    I once observed, if the Notre Dame mascot had a girlfriend, she would look like Beth.

 

The oddest thing I ever witnessed her do was actually kind of endearing.   Ironically, it occurred in the driveway of her boss's home, where her and my ex were housesitting while he and his children were off alone a couple months after his wife/their mother passed from leukemia.   It was Jan 1977,  a little more than two years before the murder at the same home.     They were housesitting for him-- the office they both worked at was only five minutes away,  it was a weekend, and I took the train home from school, hitched to the house.  When I got there, she was in the driveway working on her metallic silver 'Barricuda.'   She had drained the oil out of the car...and it was running down the driveway(!).   Made a mess.    She was also changing the spark plugs, but didn't realize it mattered in what order she reconnected the wires, and she had duffed it up.      (She was fearless on topics she knew nothing about...)    I cleaned all that up, straightened out the wires for her, and she was disapointed/embarrassed because she wanted to do it herself, but she got over it.  A little ditzy.    OK, this executive secretary was not overly mechanically inclined, but she wasn't threatening or dangerous, just a little ditzy.   My ex had no idea she was outside doing any of this, and we all laughed about it. Like, 'What the Hell were you doing???'    It was endearing; ditzy Beth.  But that was it.

 

Sometime during the third quarter of 1981, the Commonwealth of PA, after she was found "naked, catatonic, hiding in a closet, clutching a knife" and after hearing testimony from about 30 people at her subsequent commitment hearing who described her with different names and backgrounds, believed she was enough of a threat to herself or others to commit her for 90 days, after which, she pretty much effectively, if not factually, vanished from the face of the earth, except for rare anonymous cards and phone calls to her brother, according to him.

 

Here are the leads; pick one.

 

1] She's recently dead but with no record of her death.

2] She's long dead but with no record of her death.

3] She's a bag lady somewhere dropped way off the grid.

4] She's in WITSEC as part of testimony against Nicky Scarfo. (Has had halp to vanish.)

5] She's running a wellness clinic in Boston under a new fabricated identity.  (Ala Frank Abignale).

6] She's running a gift shop in Sarasota, FL under another name.

 

She was in her late twenties when she went 'into the system' for 90 days.    Privacy laws protect those records, although a grand jury investigating a murder case could unseal them...if directed by the DA guiding the GJ investigation.     She was an adult when this happened; she did not invite her family to the hearing, they had no idea any of this was happening.    The only person who might officially have a clue where she went when she was released was her assigned 'advocate' -- and even the identity of that advocate is protected information.     She has officially 'vanished' without a trace by way of that 90 day commitment process...

 

That is some catch, that Catch-22.   What happens to people who pass through that 'system' designed to protect their privacy?    That should be a lesson to anyone who gets involved with that system.  It can, by design, swallow up any trace of you.  Without a subpoena, there is no way to 'follow' you through that rabbit-hole, once you fall in...make sure you have an advocate with standing -- like a family member and/or a health care professional you know and trust(not just someone who is assigned as an advocate), who is aware of the proceedings.

 

Steve, we've pondered the approach you suggest, but as a group, mainly because of our own possibly unhealthy compulsions, we aren't ready to give up on the ending.

 

We are all, all of us, a little nutz sometimes.

 

regards,

Fred



Post 41

Saturday, December 6, 2014 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

 

From Wikipedia: Psychopathy: "...a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations."

 

Another personality disorder, also thought to be formed at an early age, also one that includes deceiving others (appearing normal).

I doubt that she was psychopathic.... unless she was MPD and one of her other 'selves' was psychopathic.



Post 42

Sunday, December 7, 2014 - 5:00amSanction this postReply
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So readers better understand the deep background motivating this poll and its comments, here are some posts and quotes from the early days of this site under the old Sense of Life Objectivists (SOLO) banner:

 

A local Objectivist Club would most appeal to me if it focused on: (poll)

 

Top two responses: friendship formation and getting laid.

 

A Proto-Objectivist Argument for Lifelong Monogamy?

 

Comment 1: "I'm sure Luke by now knows that it's bad procedure to contrive one's reasoning to lead to a pre-determined conclusion, as he admitted doing in this old article. I wonder if he's totally shaken off the ethic he was brought up in, though? As you say, ... the alternatives offered—life-long monogamy or wanton promiscuity—add up to yet another phony dichotomy."

 

A Proto-Objectivist Defense of Teetotaling?

 

General agreement that drunkenness is bad but an occasional buzz is good.

 

JOE versus SAM (Justified by Others' Esteem versus Self Assured Man)

 

Comment 6: "I think the issue is that Joe thinks a relationship will solve all his problems, and fulfill him completely - a viewpoint which would cause him to become clingy and desperate. It's not so much that Sam places less importance on a relationship, more that he is able to maintain his independence. Joe, on the other hand, believes that his happiness depends on other people."

 

Houseguests from Hell

 

Comment 1: "Luke they wanted you to at least *try* to make a move on them. When you didn't they were hurt."

 

Questions and Motives

 

From the article: "You're nineteen and you're still a virgin?"

 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/07, 6:06am)



Post 43

Sunday, December 7, 2014 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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Luke:

 

They call it 'mating.'     Not every piece of the puzzle mates with every other.

 

And because of that, I'm not sure there is a one size fits all way to go about it -- a uniform front that must be displayed by all who enter the arena.   What characteristics and behaviors some many might find repulsive some others/few might find attractive.   For example, just the act of showing up with an explicit written checklist.   Sure, many might be put off by that, but imagine showing up to such a date and a] finding a mate with their own explicit checklist and b] discovering that you both check each other's lists...which beats ticking them off, let's face it.   

 

There are behaviors that you or I or even 'most' people might find repulsive, but if they reflect one's actual self, and one is unwilling or unable to change, then hiding them or wearing another false front as camoflouge can only serve short term narrow goals.   That no doubt happens, too.     What behavior's must I temporarily don -- like a borrowed suit of armor -- to enter this arena in the current culture in order to achieve the highest success rate?

 

The endeavour, by its nature, depends not only on your definition of success, but that of your potential mate as well.   Risk/reward when you enter that arena.  I don't think that can be avoided.     It is why the analogy of 'a mine field' is so often used to refer to that arena.

 

The mines aren't everywhere, they are just somewhere.   A careful soul seeks out the best mine detector he can find, and might even show up to the arena waving it in front of him.    A less careful soul says 'screw it' and jumps into the arena., because the potential wounds are not always fatal, they just hurt-- assuming we ignore the odd, fringe boiled rabbit left on the stove (Glenn Close/Fatal Attraction.)

 

Both can succeed, both can fail-- each for different reasons and definitions of success and fail.

 

About the most any of us can do for each other in that arena is wish each other "Good luck,"  though that isn't to say,like most arenas, that there isn't a booming how-to industry.

 

regards,

Fred 



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Post 44

Sunday, December 7, 2014 - 8:03amSanction this postReply
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When a man goes out on a first date, for the most part, his worst, reasonable worry is that he might make a bad decision - a voluntary decision. And/or, that she might not like him and he'll feel rejected.

 

When a woman goes out on a first date her worst, reasonable worry is that she might be raped or beaten - she knows the odds are quite low but it does happen.

 

Most of the women I've known don't hold that in the front of their mind... they take some precautions, like meeting the guy somewhere so he won't know where they live till they know him better, but all and all they look forward to going out and hope it will be fun and maybe turn into something worth while.

 

Some men I've met are never too far from images of some kind of disaster: getting taken to the cleaners, humiliated, rejected, saddled with a bad relationship, carved up by a gold-digger, etc. As if these things could spring out from behind a bush like some overpowering monster that takes them by force.

 

Sometimes when I ponder this difference between the sexes, I have to conclude that there are areas where men come out looking like cowards.  But, in our favor I have to point out that we males, at least in this culture, were raised to focus on efficacy and productivity and making things work and we were given subtle messages that we would get love in exchange for being good at what we do. Women were raised to feel lovable in and of themselves.  Men, too often, go to women with their accomplishments held out as offerings... in hopes that they will be loved.  Since feeling lovable is one side of the self-esteem coin, it is not a good thing to have failure in a relationship leading to forever feeling unlovable and unworthy.  That, I think, is why so some men either avoid relationships, or treat them like a game - and try to 'score' or just hit homeruns - instead of seeking a serious relationship.



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Post 45

Sunday, December 7, 2014 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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I have seen so many otherwise intelligent people get their lives turned so sideways because of eros that I have to wonder if they think that area of life bears no subjection to reason whatsoever.

 

As Steve noted, many people can see trouble coming a mile away and have the sense to avoid it.  Clearly not all do.  My own "emotional intelligence" theory is that "fight or flight or fun" plays a central role here.  By that I mean that when "threats or opportunities" present themselves to certain people, the blood leaves the brain for other body parts for "fight or flight or fun" and leaves the reptilian part of the brain to guard the fort.

 

Here are some quotes I have heard from fellow male college students old enough to know better:

 

"If you're choosy, you'll never get any!"

"Guys never say no to sex!"

"Condoms?  Ha!  I like to live on the razor's edge!"

 

They meant it and the girls believed it, too.

 

My freshman year college roommate was a shy guy who got a date with a cute coed.  At the end of the evening, he escorted her like a gentleman to the front door of her apartment and said he needed to get back to the residence halls as it was getting late.  "Oh, you can sleep here if you want!" she offered.  He declined.  Whether her offer was really innocent or not, he took it as not and never dated her again.  She served food in the cafeteria.  In later casual conversation with her as she served my dish, she mentioned of my roommate, "He doesn't like me."

 

Even among self-described Objectivists I hear some of these same attitudes.  One bragged about his one-night stands.  Another who was married evidently had difficulty maintaining his oath of monogamy to his wife and, once again, did not always wear condoms during his dalliances.

 

The human condition can be very depressing.

 

On a more amusing note, a calculus instructor at my "gifted" high school posted this mathematical analysis of "How to Find a Spouse‎" for those who love applied mathematics.

 

Speaking of that school, this Quora story offers insight into the sexual escapades of boarding high school students with IQs much higher than those of the administrators!

 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/07, 11:33am)



Post 46

Sunday, December 7, 2014 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Luke:

 

I tend to agree.    It would be less so, if these choices and their consequences were born mostly by the practitioners, but they inevitably spill out into other areas of public debate, and turn themselves into demands for subsidy of the consequences.

 

Or worse; a tainted blood supply that ends up killing the odd 4 yr old hemophiliac, to which is said "Sorry, but we really had a driving need to indiscriminately rub one out mutually with a willing bit of warm flesh."

 

At least nominal serial monogamy is apparently an unbearable hairshirt, and an impediment to the pathways in service mainly to dopamine.

 

Dopamine is very persuasive drug.

 

 

There is a recent local murder case; a 50+ yr old stepfather murdered his twentysomething stepdaughter-- shot her in the back of the head --  then videotaped himself having sex with her corpse, which has been found on his computer, one assumes, for ready playback of the event.     If he had assaulted her before murdering her, it would have been an 'agravating' circumstance, and he would have been eligible for the death penalty.   Because sex with a corpse is only a misdemeanor and not a felony, no death penalty.   He can be aditionally charged with abusing a corpse.   It's mind boggling.

 

Below reptilian.   There are some sick mofos in the world who can justify almost anything to get the dopamine flowing.

 

He'll have a trial, a conviction, a new orange wardrobe, stories to tell his new BFFs, and three squares for the rest of his miserable life, when what is needed is two Jeeps in stump puller low and a pair of re-usable chains, videotaped with his own camera, and played back for anyone else so inclined.

 

regards,

Fred



Post 47

Monday, December 8, 2014 - 5:56amSanction this postReply
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Duplicate post deleted.

 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/08, 6:28am)



Post 48

Monday, December 8, 2014 - 6:27amSanction this postReply
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Since respondents overwhelmingly favored locating a lifetime soul mate as the purpose of a date, would anyone care to make a concise, explicit distinction between these two concepts?

  1. Dating is ...
  2. Courtship is ...

I normally associate the former with something very casual and the latter with something very serious with the goal of marriage as the end game.  I hear much conflation of the terms in normal conversation, though.  Even the Merriam-Webster online dictionary has blurred lines between them.

 

"Dude, Where's My Courtship?" examines the changes in meanings of these key terms and their applications over the last few generations.

 

The sloppiness of language used on the romance scene explains many of the conflicts seen in these relationships, e.g. meanings of key terms like "love" and "dating" and "marriage" lack precisely equal meanings in the minds of the participants.

 

What would motivate people to engage in "dating" rather than "courtship"?

 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/08, 7:56am)



Post 49

Monday, December 8, 2014 - 6:33amSanction this postReply
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Followup to the necrophiliac-murderer story:   he requested a 'public defender' because he doesn't want to burden his family -- the family he just shattered by killing and assaulting his stepaughter-- with the expenses of his defense.   The Judge refused-- this man has a fence business and assets -- and told him he is not going to shed the burdern of his own defense.  

 

What defense?   He's admitted to murdering his stepdaughter.   They found video on his computer showing him assaulting her corpse.  Her body was found buried in a shallow grave on his property.   They have him on video camera at a parking lot dropping off her car and leaving in his.  The last person she talked to was told she was leaving to use her stepfather's fax machine.   Why is there even going to be a trial, and not just a hearing to hear him enter a guilty plea, if he is so concerned about the expenses of his 'defense?'     This fence builder has been totally de-fenced.   The DA couldn't lose this case if he tried.



Post 50

Monday, December 8, 2014 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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Luke:

 

In some cultures there is/was the idea of young men used to ask permission of young women's parents, who would ask their 'intentions' before allowing them to interact with their daughter.   Clearly that doesn't apply these days to the interactions of young adults beyond majority age.    Your examples of 'dating' vs. 'courting' go well into old age.

 

Do folks date until they start courting?   Is that all intuitive and open to interpretation, or is it ever made explicit?   Do folks ever court from the get-go?    Do folks arrive at their wedding day bewildered and wonder 'How the Hell did we get here???'

 

You've identified a major source of confusion, because I'd bet the precise transition from dating to courting is a very intuitive thing seldom made explicit.   It would be easier for all involved if we had special color coded shirts made, but even that wouldn't help, considering so much of the activity occurs without clothing (or even, analysis.)

 

regards,

Fred



Post 51

Monday, December 8, 2014 - 6:54amSanction this postReply
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Luke:

 

The concepts of 'it was just a date' as well as 'speed dating' support your assertion that these are two different types of intentions.   

 

By 'speed dating' I mean those contrived events where participants jump from table to table for a 5 minute interview and then take notes seeking mutual interest based on 5 minute interviews.   Dating in absurdium, reduced to its inconsequential essence in a safe if contrived experience.

 

When it comes to 'speed dating' I think the participants can't possibly mistake the activity for courting.   But with a single individual date, I think its entirely possible for one participant to be dating while the other is courting.   (It can, it may; whether it should is an open question.)

 

 

regards,

Fred



Post 52

Monday, December 8, 2014 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

 

I have never experienced one of those 'speed dates' but I like the idea.  The idea is that you get a few minutes to choose who you migh want to go on a first date.  The alternative being that you go on a first date that is indeed blind.  You are speeding up the process of weeding out those who have little appeal.  And believe me, there are a lot of women who I would not want to go on a date with, and who I could spot as as such in even less than 5 minutes - perfectly nice women in personality and appearance - but that don't generate any interest.  

 

I would say that it is NOT a date at all but a way to possibly meet one or two people whose company you are more likely to enjoy.  It is a 'pre-date' - like perusing ads at a singles site, or taking a chance on someone your friends set you up with (two currently popular selection methods) except you actually get to see the real person and talk to real person.



Post 53

Monday, December 8, 2014 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
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We should take some time to talk about the back end of relationships known as breakup or divorce.

 

Some references:

 

Divorce Busting the book cites three root causes of termination:

 

1. Lack of appreciation

2. Lack of affection

3. Nagging

 

Do you agree or disagree?

 

Retrouvaille cites four stages of marriage:

 

1. Romance

2. Disillusionment

3. Misery

4. Awakening

 

"Due to the high divorce rate many couples never make it to the 4th Stage of Awakening."

 

This list implies that "romance" is in fact "illusionment" else how could one become "disillusioned"?

 

Do you agree or disagree?

 

Not to worry, I am not contemplating divorce but given the misery these conditions inflict it would be nice for Objectivists to think through these matters and say something sensible and informed about them to others.

 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/08, 8:54am)



Post 54

Monday, December 8, 2014 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Luke:

 

The first of that list of three is so broad that I think it covers most ground.    "Lack of appreciation" could include anything from lacking an understanding of what each other want out of life(a common problem I'd think for people who get married too young) to understanding that but taking the other person for granted.

 

Divorces aren't all the same.    I was with my first wife for ten years; met her as a jr in high school, we got married too young (between my jr and sr of college) for the wrong reasons (primarily, her parents were having problems at home and she/we were eager to get her out of the house; by then, we's been together 4 yrs, had discussed marriage, and so, with mutual youthful hubris, just moved it up for the wrong reason.)   We were married almost six years, when suddenly one day, completely out of the blue(to me)she announced she wanted to split.   After getting over my shock,  a much younger me over-analyzed the event and concluded she was right, if I had no idea this was coming.  Clearly, I wasn't paying attention to her.   And so, I agreed.      We had no children by design at that point-- I'd just started my career, we were fixing up an old 140 yr old farmhouse in the middle of nowhere for three years.    I spent every waking moment either working or re-doing every square inch of the farmhouse-- plumbing, wiring, some foundation, chimney, ... every square inch needed to be redone.  (This had been her desire, and I'd agreed to it.)     We'd just finished it -- the last thing you do is new carpet/floors-- and within a week, she made her sudden announcement.

 

So, we had an un-contested/no fault six month divorce.   Beyond that, during the early stages of the process, we still 'dated.'   We'd go to dinner with our friends, and then announce our impending divorce over a toast.  (The oddest thing of all is, we still continued to have 'relations' after that, even after she moved out and into her own apartment.   She'd invite me to dinner, then invite me to sleep over.   Even during the split, we still had affection for each other,just, not enough to stay married.)  Our friends thought we were kidding at first, and then, that we were nuts. As odd as it sounds, we were still 'friends.'   There was sadness in our split, but no anger or animosity, but then again,  I was clueless, but just knew, if it was over, then it was over, and if I hadn't seen it coming at all, then she was probably right to pull the plug.    Or, maybe it was a failed 'test' of some kind, and I was really clueless.   It's not like I learned much that was definite from the process, though I tried.   Mostly, make sure you aren't inadvertently taking your spouse for granted.   I'm not sure I so much 'learned' that as, it is the one thing that I carry from that experience. 

 

I never really fully undestood it, other than in a vague sense that we married too young for the wrong reasons.   There were some external circumstances, stresses; but not the cause; if they were part of the cause, then they broke only that which could be broken.  This was right after the period when we testified at our friend Beth's commitment hearing.   It was disturbing as Hell, and my favorite self-serving theory(the one that doesn't include 'she just got tired of the nerd after ten years')is that the stress of those events triggered her (and ultimately me, a split second after she made her anouncement) to rethink our young lives and where we were going.

 

It was as if we both wanted to hit the 'reset' button on our young lives, and start new lives that didn't include friends who were MPD, found naked and catatonic and clutching a kitchen knife and so on two years after their boss's daughter had been brutally murdered with a knife.   And the oddest fact is, that about six weeks after this odd split, after filing the papers, she and I agreed to 'see' other people, and within weeks... I met my current wife, my ex met her current husband,  we have both been married to our respective spouses for over thirty years since, and have both raised families and are happily remarried.   New lives.    'Rebounds' not supposed to work out like that, but both did(and I'm as happy for her as I am for me.)

 

There was no abuse(though, and I'm not sure, but me slaving on that farmhouse for her might have been a kind of inadvertent neglect; it was a brutal march of refurbishing for three years!)nor indifelity, as far as I know.    And in fact, about 3 months after the breakup, she had a momentary change of mind, and was at my door, crying, asking me how I could 'discard' her like that?    The papers had been in process for 3 months at that point, I'd gotten over my shock, had reached my analytical nerd conclusions that what is over, is over, and was moving on.   I knew by then she was involved with someone new, and me as well, and reminded her not only that the split was her idea and a shock to me, but that there were other lives involved now.     I suspect it was just temporary 'cold feet' about going through with it, or, as likely, I misread the whole exercise, like the dense over-analytical nerd that I am.   Either way, I/we/our marriage failed that test.

 

Within a year of splitting up, we were both remarried.   Six months after that, the now four of us jointly sold the farmhouse and split the net.   There were no children from that first marriage, and so... that was it.   We all signed the deed on the property, shook hands, and haven't talked to each other since.   That was 31 yrs ago.   I wish her and her new family well, and I'm certain she's been a great mom to her kids and wife to her husband.   I hope she found the life she was looking for.

 

Anyway, this atypical divorce experience for sure makes me no expert in the process.   I was and still am totally clueless about relationships and their demise.   However, the one thing I heavily suspect is, there is no script to read from. and no 'How-To' book that is worth a damn.

 

regards,

Fred



Post 55

Monday, December 8, 2014 - 8:15pmSanction this postReply
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Not every date has a long range purpose, nor does it need to. Sometimes it's just about short term validation. We naturally want to feel desired. A date can provide powerful validation and excitement.

 

And people can and do get together for mutual physical benefit, without a man using lies to get sex, and without a woman having ulterior motives in her giving sex. This doesn't always happen, but not all casual relations are doomed to end in disaster. Though if they persist, they frequently result in one party hoping that the arrangement becomes more serious/long term, while the other prefers it just be casual or temporary.



Post 56

Tuesday, December 9, 2014 - 4:50amSanction this postReply
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Pete wrote:

Sometimes it's just about short term validation. We naturally want to feel desired. A date can provide powerful validation and excitement.

I saw this happen quite a bit at my boarding school though I could not explain it this way at the time.  Consider this insight from a recent student there:

People who haven’t known each other for very long begin to date, best friends are made in the matter of a few hours, and these relationships can fall apart just as fast as they formed.

Pete wrote:

Though if they persist, they frequently result in one party hoping that the arrangement becomes more serious/long term, while the other prefers it just be casual or temporary.

I saw this happen, too.  It looked too painful to outweigh any "fun" involved.  No, thanks.

 

How can one handle these complex emotions productively and coach one's partner to do the same?

 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/09, 4:56am)



Post 57

Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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I see Quora had a similar question posted back in 2011 with only a few answers offered.



Post 58

Monday, December 15, 2014 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
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Fred wrote:

Clearly, I wasn't paying attention to her.

My wife and I have a running joke about this:

 

"Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!"

 

Whenever one of us is attempting to focus on a task demanding one's full attention and the other interrupts, that is how the focusing person responds!

 

It reminds me of what I call The Needy Girlfriend's Mantra:

 

Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me!  Pay attention to me! ...

 

See also "Overly Attached Girlfriend" on YouTube:

 

 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/15, 11:26am)



Post 59

Wednesday, December 17, 2014 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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Luke:

 

Thank you for that; I shared the 'crazy eyes' video with my son and wished him luck!  He is 26 and presently in The Arena.   That video is hilarious.  Good humor always has some truth in it.

 

Know what you mean about 'pay attention to me!'.   But not what I meant; my ex wasn't spoiled brat like that at all.    I just meant, since it was a fact that I didn't see it coming at all, not even a hint, that to me, that was objective evidence I wasn't paying attention to her.   That assessment came from me, not her.   It's not like she ever complained 'you aren't paying attention to me.'   There were the circumstances of fixing up that farm-house for three years; it was like a forced march, every night and weekend, plus me starting a new career.  So maybe, in a way, I was kind of neglecting her-- even as I was slaving away doing what she wanted-- fix up that old farmhouse -- which I had agreed to, so no complaints from me there.     And the external stress of our friend, with the commitment hearing.   It was withing a month or two of all that happeneing that we broke up.   Like I said, it wasn't the cause; it was stress that broke something that could be broken.   We were HS close friends who got married way too young, for the wrong reasons, were both distracted for a while, and when something came up that made us freshly refocus on our lives, she concluded 'reset button' and I basically agreed.  (She was always the smart one in our relationship.)    Is what it is, a failed marriage,  but fortunately, without consequences such as kids ruined lives or even, hard feelings.   Was sad event but not with animosity or anger.  We both long moved on, landed on our respective feet somehow.    Mostly luck, it seems.

 

regards,

Fred



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