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Post 0

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 4:33amSanction this postReply
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Fascinating quote.

Before the Berlin Wall came down, a friend and I, traveling in Europe, crossed Checkpoint Charlie to spend an afternoon in East Berlin. At the checkpoint, we had to get out of our car, and the car was thoroughly searched. We were puzzled to see that the guards -- who looked as if they had stepped out of an American World War II movie about Nazis, except that the uniforms under the blond brush cuts and blue eyes were communist -- searched under floor mats and in tiny cavities in the engine. And then we realized what was the most important object of the search: not guns or bombs but printed material. They were terrified that ideas would enter their realm. And, of course, when the ideas of freedom did enter, it was the end of communism.

Barbara

Post 1

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 5:29amSanction this postReply
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Read this site to learn about cult mind control:

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm

It sounds a great deal like Communist and theocratic totalitarianism to me!  The Stalin quote refers to the I in BITE.


Luke Setzer


Post 2

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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This from the man who is oft quoted by international-relations realists saying "how many divisions does the Pope have"?

Stalin was more aware of both the spiritual and material components of power-relations than those who scoff at ideas would like to think.

Methinks part of the reason is that "realists" intuit all too well that the entirety of their power comes from others accepting the idea of their cynical model and don't want to encourage too much thinking about ends or values.

Jeanie Ring   )(*)(



Post 3

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas.
 
Snort.  When I first scanned that, I was reminded of the bureaucrats running our zero-tolerance educational institutions:  "Ideas are more powerful than guns.  We don't let our students have guns, why should we let them have ideas."  Hyperbolic?  Perhaps.  But I shall amuse myself over the next few minutes discovering parallels between Stalinist Russia and the NEA.


Post 4

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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But I shall amuse myself over the next few minutes discovering parallels between Stalinist Russia and the NEA.
 
What about the DEA?


Post 5

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
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You guys can't be serious to compare Stalinist Russia to NEA, DEA, EPA or whatever?

Post 6

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Hong has a point, those agencies would have a lot of killing, maiming, and prison camping to do before they ever came close to Stalin.

~E.

Though I also dislike the listed agencies especialy the NEA.


Post 7

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 1:52pmSanction this postReply
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{I'm a talented double poster}

(Edited by Eric J. Tower on 12/07, 1:53pm)


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Post 8

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
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You guys can't be serious to compare Stalinist Russia to NEA, DEA, EPA or whatever?


You left out IRS, ATF...

You must be very literal minded.  "Fix not your mind on one place only," as Dante said.  Grant me that I did reference my statement as hyperbolic.  However, the natural extension and ultimate end of the NEA agenda is, in my very informed opinion, a Stalinist state.  Unintentional as that may be, the fact that they have deliberately blinded themselves to the consequences of their policies in order to benefit from their union makes them evil.  Their collective effort to blind their students to history and reality -- to deprive them of ideas with the same zero-tolerance zeal with which they react to the presence of weapons regardless of intent -- makes my analogy apt.

The NEA is training our children to be the puppies in "Animal Farm."  Refer to Rearden's reflections after the death of the Wet Nurse in "Atlas Shrugged."  The NEA is a statist incubator in the business of killing minds. While it has been counteracted by other factors, it is slowly, over the years, building hegemony.  We are at least 5 generations removed from decent education in America and with each iteration, things get more hopeless.  It's a cultural death spiral.


(Edited by Stuart Hutchings on 12/07, 2:10pm)

(Edited by Stuart Hutchings on 12/07, 2:12pm)


Post 9

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
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"Fix not your mind on one place only," as Dante said.

Great quote, very interesting...

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Post 10

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 4:02pmSanction this postReply
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Stuart,

 

Yes, I am known to take things literally. In general, I like explicit, precise and logical statements.

 

In Stalinist Soviet or Maoist China, annihilation of ideas meant, literally, killing off millions who possessed dissenting ideas, and killing off millions who were potentially capable of dissident ideas. Only by such ruthless terror, both reigns were able to bring their nations and their people down to their knees, to submit to their communist leader’s ideas. Their reign also had to be sustained by waves of such terror and a complete control of media, arts, literature, and all humanity sciences.

 

Lenin advocated “Red Terror”, which Mao further developed into “Power is born out of gun barrels” (my own translation). This is a crucial element for a totalitarian reign. Lack of this element in “Atlas Shrugged” makes the book highly idealistic and less realistic.

We are at least 5 generations removed from decent education in America and with each iteration, things get more hopeless.  

You got to be kidding me. 5 generations ago US was a slavery country; American Indians were slaughtered to near extinction like prairie bison; women did not have the right to own property and to vote. As much as I complain about US today, I have to say that we are in a much more enlightened age than 5 generations ago.



Post 11

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 4:55amSanction this postReply
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Yes, I am known to take things literally. In general, I like explicit, precise and logical statements.






So, if I were to say, "John Kerry is a snake," would that be a problem?  Or how about Dickens' "the law is an ass." 

 

Your taking issue with my admittedly hyperbolic comparison of the NEA to a Stalinist State seems to point to a desire to excise analogy and metaphor from human communication.  This would be a mistake.  Not only are they necessary components of reason and poetics but they are, actually, critical to scientific hypothesis.

 

Just as a seemingly harmless bear cub will grow into a grizzly that will eat you, the NEA has the genetic map of a Stalinist State.

 

To wit:

 

Jello treat gets Jefferson Parish 4th-grader suspended

GRETNA, La. A Jefferson Parish fourth grader has been suspended for taking what's being described as a look-alike drug to school.



Eight-year-old Kelli Billingsley brought homemade Jell-O cups to school at Boudreaux Elementary. Her mom says the school tested the Jell-O and determined it didn't have any alcohol in it. But the school suspended the girl for having a look alike drug.

The girl's mom says her daughter was just trying to make a treat for her friends.

The superintendent of Jefferson Parish schools says she will investigate the case.

(From: Curt Sprang, WGNO-TV, New Orleans)





Since this came out, it has been reported that the little girl will have to go through a 12-step programme and attend anti-drug classes for a year.  Her mother will have to consent to unannounced spot searches of their home by government authorities for a year.  With the NEA at the helm, our children are being conditioned to accept the preconditions of a Stalinist State.  This is one of many, many instances of such bullying insanity across the country.  Would you agree that the irrational and disproportionate exercise of power is a hallmark of a dictatorship?

 

From your posts, I have no doubt that we are in agreement as to the evils of communism, etc.  Analagous thinking will serve to put the defensive perimeter out a little farther.

 

Regarding our educational system being 5 generations removed from reality, I'll stand by that, too.  I'm thinking 5 generations is about 100-150 years.  We've been on the slippery slope in that regard since the 1910's.  Cultural collapse probably follows educational collapse by a few generations, so do the math.  If you look at elementary school curriculums and standards from the late 19th century and compare them to now, there is simply no comparison. Teachers have been educating teachers who educate teachers most of whom have never done anything but teach.  Living in the warm cocoon of government employment and benefits, they are reproducing increasing statist teachers who are intent on imposing their distorted "values" on their victim students.

(Edited by Stuart Hutchings on 12/09, 4:58am)


Post 12

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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Stuart,

Reading your posts is almost like talking to a Jim Taggart!  Vague generalizations just won't do for me. 

 

First, I do not assume anything except those you've stated explicitly.  

 

Second I do not take anybody's conclusion for granted, if it is without the supports of facts and logical deductions.

 

I have nothing against analogical methods in thinking, however, this

 

Just as a seemingly harmless bear cub will grow into a grizzly that will eat you, the NEA has the genetic map of a Stalinist State.

 

is not a valid analogy.

 

Please enlighten me with what specific NEA policies on what specific issues that would lead to what specific results that are in which ways analogous to a Stalinist State? 

 
As for the rest of your post, please don’t assume that I should know that NEA is directly behind the Jelly-O incident, and that I should know exactly what was in the 19th century elementary school curriculum. Because I don’t.






Post 13

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 5:06pmSanction this postReply
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Hong - try John Taylor Gatto's THE UNDERGROUND HISTORY OF AMERICAN EDUCATION...(perhaps Amazon has it).... goes a long ways to gaining understanding in regards to American education over the years.....

Post 14

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 3:58amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Robert.  I was unaware of the book; I found it on line an ordered a copy.  You can apparently read it on line here and buy it from the same site:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

Also on the same site is a "History Tour" which points out:

"Men like these, and the brilliant efficiency expert Frederick W. Taylor, who inspired the entire "social efficiency" movement of the early twentieth century, along with providing the new Soviet Union its operating philosophy and doing the same job for Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany; men who dreamed bigger dreams than any had dreamed since Napoleon or Charlemagne, these were the makers of modern schooling."


Post 15

Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 11:52pmSanction this postReply
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"Men like these, and the brilliant efficiency expert Frederick W. Taylor, who inspired the entire "social efficiency" movement of the early twentieth century, along with providing the new Soviet Union its operating philosophy and doing the same job for Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany; men who dreamed bigger dreams than any had dreamed since Napoleon or Charlemagne, these were the makers of modern schooling."
Quite excellent points... I would merely add that Taylorism also forms the backbone of the culture of modern corporate America; the same forms of management and manipulation of persons as things are now used to count keystrokes and monitor employee use of bathrooms.  The fundamental error is the same- the refusal to recognize the creative nature of human productivity- and the fundamental end is the same- power.  We may take these for granted as part of the very nature of productive work, but such is not the way we seek value in friendship, science, art, or romance- we here trust the enthusiasm of the human spirit.  And so can we and should we in industry.

Jeanine Ring   )(*)(


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