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Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 7:06amSanction this postReply
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I am not sure about this, or I am sure that I am ambivalent. 
 
 Libertarian Durk Pearson, drawing on an MIT class in sociology dubbed laissez faire societies "meta-stable" because each new dislocation creates a new stability, rather than causing the collapse of the system which is the case for undynamic (and therefore unstable) societies.
 
Is it necessary to have violence in order to have art?  How do you feel about the social benefits to violence when you are the one shot?


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Post 1

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 8:00amSanction this postReply
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Well, it's no secret that conflict spurs innovation (although not usually artistic innovation), but there were plenty of other places around the world that had just as much "warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed" and didn't produce a single noteworthy thing.

Sarah

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Post 2

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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Michelangel, Leonard da Vinci and the Renaissance.
 
All three above were mainly products of Florence, and Florence did indeed have a democracy.

As for the wars, the other Italian states did not benefit culturally. I think Limes argument is off. I think it was mainly just in this area of Florence because more freedom of expression was permitted, even nurtured, under the rule of the Medici family. Notice also that the Medici's as a banking family were through and through capitalists!


Post 3

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps, it is not war, but a rich life and some tragedy that is necessary to produce invention. But the most important factor will be a philosophy of life and certainly Leonardo Da Vinci and Michaelangelo were such people who took pride in their lifes. They displayed what they wanted to envision, whether it is sad, tragic, inspiring or just plainly reinventing.

I doubt that war was the initial factor, but tragedy can be a motivator for a person with pride in life to do brilliant art. Its just that the event of war is not necessary to cause the painting, but rather gives him some new influx.


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Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 8:47amSanction this postReply
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I'm of the mind that naturally war isn't necessary for inovation, but I'd be a fool to say it doesn't help.

The Wright Brothers didn't have a war to push them but I doubt we would have landed on the moon by '69 if not for the cold war or have the several inovations produced during WWII.

Futhermore, some inovations at first only seem useful for military purposes, then they bleed off for civilian use. If not for war I guarantee I wouold not be typing this now, I'd probably be using a stylus writing on rag paper, if that. God help us when this world is unified far in the future, with not external threats innovation will definitely slow.

Post 5

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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If not for war I guarantee I wouold not be typing this now, I'd probably be using a stylus writing on rag paper, if that.

I was under the impression that the internet was invented at CERN in Switzerland, land of the cuckoo clock :-)


Post 6

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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I thought Gore invented it. :)

Lets see, the modern computer was invented by the military to calculate artillery shots. The transister was partially funded by the military. IBM was stuffed with military contracts, need i go on?

Post 7

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
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ARPANET
The Advanced Research Projects Agency Network was the world's first operational packet switching network, and the progenitor of the global Internet. - from the U.S. Department of Defense land of the cuckoo Glock.

Tim Berners-Lee at CERN provided the HTTP protocol and the HTML script to make it usable for the rest of us - and at the same time next to worthless to the U.S. Department of Defense.

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Post 8

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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quote
"The Wright Brothers didn't have a war to push them but I doubt we would have landed on the moon by '69 if not for the cold war or have the several inovations produced during WWII.

Futhermore, some inovations at first only seem useful for military purposes, then they bleed off for civilian use. If not for war I guarantee I wouold not be typing this now, I'd probably be using a stylus writing on rag paper, if that. God help us when this world is unified far in the future, with not external threats innovation will definitely slow."

And you know this...how, exactly? Do you have some magical ability to see into alternative realities where there was no Cold War or World War II? Free enterprise requires peace. 'Tis extremely difficult to produce and create in a society that is constantly at war, even if the society you're living is not the one on the receiving end of the bombs and missiles, as the State is constantly siphoning off even more resources from the private sector than it does in times of relative peace in order to maintain its war.

How do you know that if there weren't any wars at all that you wouldn't be writing with something even more advanced and sophisticated than your personal computer?

 


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Post 9

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

The Renaissance in Florence was started by the Medicis but terminated by Savonarola, another democratically elected leader. Savonarola staged weekly "Bonefires of the Vanities," burning thousands of paintings, illuminated manuscripts etc. Fortunately for subsequent generations, some of the artists who still lived quietly removed their own works and the works of their predecessors from public display, and hid them in warehouses until Savonarola himself lost an election and was burned at the stake. Democracy works, sort of and bidirectionally.

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Post 10

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Folks, you may not realise this but Harry Lime is the *villian* of the film The Third Man. He is utterly amoral, and sells defective black market drugs in post war Vienna, permanently maiming his victims. In the famous Ferris Wheel scene, he refers to the people below as 'little black dots', and asks who would care if one of those little black dots stopped moving...and if you made money every time one did....the quote above is his *rationalisation* for his amorality.

-Daniel


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Post 11

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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Well said, Daniel. I wanted to point that out too but didn't get around to do it...there are so many, many inventions and discoveries' that do not have anything to do with war. Brooklyn Bridge, Empire State building, anti-biotics, vaccines, organ transplant, just to name a few. War parties utilize inventions, not the other way around, i.e., not that war leads to inventions.

Post 12

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, its exactly BECAUSE war is wasteful that many of the inventions we know of would not have come about. What possiable reason would I want to make a thermonuclear weapon for except for war (of course that has no civilian use, unless you count Orion). Jet engines are a perfect example, so are most "big" physics research. Private enterprise won't try to develop something if they don't believe they can make money on it, try and try again only works a few times when its your pocketbook funding it.

Government on the other hand can be wasteful, they can afford to keep trying until they get it right. My point though isn't that this is a good thing, far from it. But like I said war is a wasteful business and, to a large degree, so is producing the weapons for it. If we didn't have to fight wars, I'd advocate stripping down the military as fast as humanity possiable. Possiable benifits in no way justify the costs. But they're are benifits, not from waging war exactly, but from the technological results it produces.

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Post 13

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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How do you know that if there weren't any wars at all that you wouldn't be writing with something even more advanced and sophisticated than your personal computer?

It could even be argued that if there were no WWI or WWII, that freemarkets and capitalism would still be flourishing.

Adam,

Ah well, at least the female line of Medici's, Maria and Christine, went on to bring Renaissance culture to the French :-)


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Post 14

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 2:06pmSanction this postReply
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1. Daniel Barnes is right about Harry Lime.
 
2.  The computer was not "invented" by the military.  Not much ever was.  Other people invent things and sell them to the military.  At the same time as Heisenberg was not inventing the atomic bomb in a very military nation that wanted one, that same nation was also not creating gasoline by "somehow" mixing water with coal. One of my favorite military applications is canned food, invented for (not by) the British Navy.
See  http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/story080.htm
and  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/telephone/sfeature/
As for the computer, several types were proposed over the early years 1890-1960.  IBM was launched by Hermann Hollerith after he won a contract to tally the U.S. Census.  Note that the Census Bureau -- despite its tremendous need -- did not invent the computer.
 
I wish I could put my hands on the issue of Scientific American that in the summer of 1929 on its back cover advertised a television jack for the RCA radio. In the book Rockets, Missiles and Space Travel by German rocket scientist Willie Ley is this story. The official German government military rocket scientists called a meeting of industry leaders to solve the problem of creating a pump that could produce the flows at pressure required by their designs.  The scientists were stumped.  It turns out that fire engines routinely pumped water at those rates. So, that problem was solved.  In point of fact, if not for the world wars and depression, we might have been on the moon by 1940 or 1950.  Robert Goddard was funded by the Guggenheim foundation on $20,000 I think.  The Wright Brothers spent $10,000 of their own money while Langley spent twenty times that to put two planes in the Potomac. 
 
War! What's it good for?  Absolutely nothing!
 
3.  Robert Kaercher pointed out that "'tis extremely difficult to produce and create in a society that is constantly at war, even if the society you're living is not the one on the receiving end of the bombs and missiles, as the State is constantly siphoning off even more resources from the private sector than it does in times of relative peace in order to maintain its war." 
 
We forget that part of it.  When you make a bomb and drop it in the enemy, the labor, the materials are lost forever.  Even if you make a can opener no one wants, at least you have something to show for it.   

4.  Max's observation ("Perhaps, it is not war, but a rich life and some tragedy that is necessary to produce invention.") is the one that I am puzzling over, basically.  War, of course, is extreme.  But, do we act smarter or work harder when we perceive threats than when we enjoy comfort?  And if we do, is this because of who we really are or only because of who we choose to be?
 
5. And as Sarah points out, we have more than enough examples of senseless violence that produced nothing. 


Post 15

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
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Michael Marotta channels the late Edwin Starr:
>War! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!

It's worth noting too the contempt that Harry has for peace and democracy, how he attempts to make out that they are *unproductive*, or somehow trivial and unworthy. Of course, in reality this necessarily entails cuckoo clocks and much as a Leonardo necessarily entails the Borgias ie: not at all.

It's a great piece of rhetoric (all the more so, as apparently Welles ad-libbed it). You can almost take it seriously. Which only makes it more *nasty*...

- Daniel


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