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Post 0

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
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A bit problematic for the champions of utilitarianism, eh?

;-)

Ed

Post 1

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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What is a soul? Does it have physical existence?

Bob Kolker


Post 2

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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Bob, a soul is a human consciousness. More specifically, it is: "... the conceptual level of psycho-epistemology—the volitional level of reason and thought." Here's Rand on that ...


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You are an indivisible entity of matter and consciousness. Renounce your consciousness and you become a brute. Renounce your body and you become a fake.
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As products of the split between man's soul and body, there are two kinds of teachers of the Morality of Death: the mystics of spirit and the mystics of muscle, whom you call the spiritualists and the materialists, those who believe in consciousness without existence and those who believe in existence without consciousness.
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The New Intellectual … will discard … the soul-body dichotomy. He will discard its irrational conflicts and contradictions, such as: mind versus heart, thought versus action, reality versus desire, the practical versus the moral. He will be an integrated man, that is: a thinker who is a man of action.

He will know that ideas divorced from consequent action are fraudulent, and that action divorced from ideas is suicidal. He will know that the conceptual level of psycho-epistemology—the volitional level of reason and thought—is the basic necessity of man's survival and his greatest moral virtue. He will know that men need philosophy for the purpose of living on earth.
==============

Ed


Post 3

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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I am indivisible and made of matter right down to the subatomic level. There is not one non-material aspect to my existence. Particles and fields, that is what I am.

Bob Kolker




Post 4

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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Have you ever changed your "mind" Bob?

Ed

Post 5

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 9:30pmSanction this postReply
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Is there a power of awareness that you have, Bob, which lower animals don't?

Ed

Post 6

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
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Bob, do you have the capacity to daydream at will?

Ed

Post 7

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 9:33pmSanction this postReply
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Bob, can you do long division in your head (at will)?

Ed

Post 8

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 9:38pmSanction this postReply
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Bob, am I able to irritate you with symbols or syntax?

Ed

Post 9

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:09pmSanction this postReply
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Okay Bob, I promise, this is the last one:

Do you have the ability to create a perpetually (persistently) meaningful poem?

One reason that I ask this is because higher animals and even super-computers can't do this, and I wanted to see if you know that you could do this (at will). Here's one off the top of my head (as I'm writing this very post) ...

Buttery Bob; by Ed Thompson
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There once was a man named Bob
Who liked to eat corn on the cob
He'd drench them in butter 'til his inner voice muttered
Wipe your fingers, Self, and don't be such a slob
============

There. It's got "soul" -- doesn't it?

;-)

Ed


Post 10

Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 1:14amSanction this postReply
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Yes, yes, yes, and yes. And of course I have abilities that my simian cousins do not have, just as you do. Different genome. The differences may manifest themselves intangibly (the physical interactions at the subatomic level are intangible), and the differences have purely physical causes. DNA is very physical. We are complicated bags of mostly water.

Our brains are very complicated, but they work in ways that are describable and predictable by physical laws. We are made of sub-atomic particles (pretty much along the lines speculated about by Lucippus and Democratus) and all the interactions are mediated by virtual photons (that is how the fields work). And when we die (as we must) we stink and rot just like other dead organic matter.

We are physical down to the subatomic level. There is only one world and one existence and it is physical. And we live and die in it. Rejoice. Rejoice. At least we get to talk about it!

Bob Kolker


Post 11

Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Bob, if you don't mind my saying this:

You are a materialist, mystic of muscle, brute who "believes" in (mental) action divorced from ideas.
Ed


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Post 12

Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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This is an odd conversation. But to take a stab at Bob Kolker's question:

What is a soul? Does it have physical existence?


Taking this question without any further context the answer to that would be there is no such thing as a soul if we go by the commonly defined religious term to mean a disembodied entity. But in the context of the quote Ed posted, I would imagine soul refers to merely one self, i.e. that which makes you an individual, your unique thoughts, experiences, desires, personality etc. In that context soul can have a very secular meaning. It would be fruitful to not fall into the trap of equivocating the words used.

Post 13

Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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Ideas are the result of physical processes in the brain. All ideas have material physical basis for their existence. If you like, ideas are effects of physical causes, therefore they are physical.

Consciousness is physical. Cognition is physical. In fact everything that exists in the world is physical or at least has physical causes. Cartesian dualism is dead wrong.

All that exists are fields and particles (and their interactions) in space-time. As the late Carl Sagan said billyuns and billyuns of times on his T.V. series show: The Cosmos is all there ever was, all there is and all there ever will be.

Bob Kolker


Post 14

Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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I am not a mystic. I am a materialist, right down to the sub-atomic level of my being. It is YOU who are the mystic in that you believe in a non-material something. I assume you are an atheist, being an Objectivist. If you deny the existence of God, a non-material entity, how can you accept the existence of any non-material (i.e. non-physical) entity? You are in a state of logical dissonance. (BTW, dissonance is physical too, being a neurological process happening in your brain).

Bob Kolker


Post 15

Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 4:16pmSanction this postReply
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Not only am I not a mystic of muscle, I am a partisan of brain power. I believe intelligence will win over brawn every time. The way to vanquish an enemy is to be smarter than he and attack at the right time with the right force and the right focus.

Think of the Battle of Midway. The Japs had us outgunned and out carrier-ed. But the U.S. had the advanced warning from the J-25 decrypts. The rest is history.

Or consider the A-Bomb. The product of brain from beginning to end. It was the A-Bomb that brought the war in the Pacific to an end.

Brains, brains, brains. Brains run the world and brains are physical.

Bob Kolker


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Post 16

Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Bob:

Consciousness is physical. Cognition is physical. In fact everything that exists in the world is physical or at least has physical causes. Cartesian dualism is dead wrong.


Right, but more accurately consciousness is a physical process. Consciousness cannot be a disembodied entity, a consciousness is a quality defining an organism. A soul if we go by a secular definition is that physical process that we use to uniquely identify individuals. So in that context; soul = consciousness, but a soul cannot exist independently of an organism. So I see nothing wrong with using the term "soul" in a non-religious context. Capisce?
(Edited by John Armaos on 2/23, 7:28pm)


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Post 17

Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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Bob,

 

When you contrast your view of "the mind as a bogus concept” from Cartesian dualism, you are setting up a false alternative.  Objectivists do not accept Descartes’ view that the mind is a fundamentally separate substance from the body—i.e., that they are somehow inherently opposite in nature.  This way of thinking led to the mind-body dichotomy, which is manifested in so many destructive forms—e.g., that the spiritual realm is somehow “superior” to the material, or that brute savages are better equipped to deal with the real world than intellectuals. 

 

Objectivists reject that view totally.  We see mind and body as fundamentally harmonious, and consider that the mental is dependent on the physical, although distinct from it. Most Objectivists consider that the mind, or consciousness, is an evolutionary development, which emerged at a certain point in the increasing biological complexity of life forms. Descartes viewed the mind as a unique nonphysical “substance,” comparable to the mystical concept of God.

 

You appear to be advocating a viewpoint known as hard reductionism—that all phenomema of biology, including consciousness, are ultimately reducible to the laws of physics and chemistry.  (Hard reductionism differs from soft reductionism in that the soft reductionist does not claim the same level of certainty about this issue.)  The fact is that we do not have such knowledge, either about biology or about consciousness.  We are not omniscient.  Until we have a complete understanding of those phenomena, we cannot say that the laws of physics and chemistry are sufficient to explain them.  Our level of knowledge is not yet at that point where we can say that there are no fundamentally different scientific principles which apply to living as opposed to inanimate phenomena.  The only way to assert such a belief is through blind faith, or pure mysticism.

 

Psycho-neural identity theories which posit a one-to-one correlation between mental events and neural events in the brain do not “prove” that the mental is equivalent to the physical—they establish the opposite conclusion.  To correlate phenomena is to establish the existence of separate phenomena, so they cannot be identical.  Psycho-neural parallelism may well have some scientific validity—but it is obviously only a step in the direction of acquiring a full understanding of the operations of consciousness.

 

In addition, your view of the brain does not account for the phenomenon of volition.  Unless there is something more than status quo physics and chemistry involved here, all mental events would require some type of antecedent stimulus.  Are you prepared to dispense with the concept of free will?  Because if you are, you will also need to dispense with any claim for the validity of your beliefs, since—based on present knowledge--all the contents of your thinking must be dictated by prior physical-neural events.  In other words, since your mind is not in your control, neither are any of your conclusions.

 

And once you acknowledge that some additional scientific explanation is needed, you are admitting to ignorance about what that explanation may eventually involve. It could be an extension of physics and chemistry, but it could also be something entirely new and as yet undiscovered.

 

Materialism and physicalism are often understood to be equivalent, but the latter term implies that the laws of physics and chemistry are all science will ever need, and that is an unwarranted claim.  Science is a long, long way from being able to understand the ultimate nature of material reality.  For you to say that the laws of physics and chemistry will eventually explain everything is an entirely unsubstantiated leap of faith, and makes YOU the mystic.

 

(For a detailed explanation of these issues, please see Robert Efron, “Biology Without Consciousness—And Its Consequences,”  The Objectivist, February, 1968)


Post 18

Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 4:07amSanction this postReply
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Hardin:

Materialism and physicalism are often understood to be equivalent, but the latter term implies that the laws of physics and chemistry are all science will ever need, and that is an unwarranted claim. Science is a long, long way from being able to understand the ultimate nature of material reality. For you to say that the laws of physics and chemistry will eventually explain everything is an entirely unsubstantiated leap of faith, and makes YOU the mystic.


Me:

No, it makes me an optimist, not a mystic. I work based on empirical evidence. So far the facts tend to support my view. What do you work on? Little progress was made in treating so-called "mental diseases" until modern chemistry was applied to brain and other neurological dysfunction. So much for "mind". We are finding the origins of our behavior in brain function and other physical functioning of our parts. Our grasp of the brain has just started. It is a little over 150 years old and progress in the last 50 years has been rapid due to advanced imaging technology.

All things in the world have physical causes. All things in the world are physical. There do not exist any non-physical things. Everything we are or ever will be started with an event some fifteen billion years ago (or so). It has been physical since the git-go.

After I had a series of MR Images done recently, as part of an experimental program I asked several PhDs in neurology and brain functioning if they could point out where my Mind was. We had the images good to a resolution of a millimeter. My Mind was nowhere to be seen. If I and several PhDs could not find it, I have to assume it is not there. Maybe you have a Mind. I don't. I just have a physical brain, three pounds (or so) of gelatinous goo and it works just fine.

Using just my brain I can do work with the theory of closed Cartesian Categories and differentiable manifolds. What can you do with your Mind?

A closing piece of advice: Facts rule, Theories sometimes serve.

Bob Kolker






Post 19

Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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Bob,

===========
Little progress was made in treating so-called "mental diseases" until modern chemistry was applied to brain and other neurological dysfunction. So much for "mind".
===========

The above is guilty of more than one fallacy (i.e., it's very illogical). Bob, can you do a better job and marshal a better argument as proof of the mind's nonexistence? You haven't proved that negative yet (as your tone and word choice imply that you did).

Ed

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