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Post 60

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 10:11pmSanction this postReply
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We make a great tag team, Ed.

The only philosophical principle I hold absolutely is the law of non-contradiction. There are no contradictions in reality.
More Peikoff:

"There is no valid reason to reject consciousness or to struggle to reduce it to matter; not if such reduction means the attempt to define it out of existence. Even if, someday, consciousness were to be explained scientifically as a product of physical conditions, this would not alter any observed fact. It would not alter the fact that, given those conditions, the attributes and functions of consciousness are what they are. Nor would it alter the fact that in many respects these attributes and functions are unique; they are different from anything observed in unconscious entities. Nor would it alter the fact that one can discover the conditions of consciousness, as of anything else one seeks to know, only through the exercise of consciousness.
 
"The monist insistence that, despite the observed facts, reality (or man) can have only one constituent, is groundless; it is an example of rewriting reality. The materialist equation of physics with science is equally groundless. Science is systematic knowledge gained by the use of reason based on observation. In using reason, however, one must study each specific subject matter by the methods and techniques suited to its nature. One cannot study history by the methods of chemistry, biology by the methods of economics, or psychology by the methods of physics.
 
"At the dawn of philosophy, the ancient Pythagoreans in an excess of enthusiasm attempted, senselessly, to equate mathematics with cognition and to construe the universe as 'numbers.' The modern behaviorists, with far less excuse, commit the same error in regard to physics.
 
"'I want,' the behaviorist says in effect, 'to deal with entities I can weigh and measure just as the physicist does. If consciousness exists, my dream of making psychology a branch of physics is destroyed. Consciousness upsets my program, my goal, my ideal. Therefore, consciousness is unreal.' In this statement, a desire is being used to wipe out a fact of reality. The primacy of consciousness is being used -- to deny consciousness!"  (OPAR, pp. 34-35)

Note the underlined sentence above, Bob.  To claim that mind is “merely epiphenomena of physical processes”(from your post #51) is knowledge that can only be gained through the exercise of consciousness—AKA, your MIND.  And that would be, let’s see, oh yeah… a contradiction.

(This point is essentially a restatement of Ed’s absolute #8.)

 


Post 61

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 11:27pmSanction this postReply
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Bam!

Holy can of whoop-ass, Dennis! It feels like we're Batman and Robin -- and Bob's the Joker (or some such villain). We're hitting him left and right -- and his glasses are cock-eyed and there are little birdies circling around his head.

Way to go, Fellow Crime-fighter!

Ed

Post 62

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 12:32amSanction this postReply
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    BAM!!   KAPOW!!



Post 63

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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I noticed that Bob doesn't have a picture of himself up on RoR yet. No matter, really -- as I found one seemingly fitting ...

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/20966.jpg

:-)

Ed

Post 64

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:49amSanction this postReply
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Wouldn't one of a Morlock be better?     ;-)

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Post 65

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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This was Bob's reaction after reading my last post.  (He forgot to turn off his webcam.)



Post 66

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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Try again. I am organic. I have no mind, but I am organic through and through.

You Mind People have a very chauvinistic and provincial attitude. You think you are the only living organic beings. Not so. We just plain meat people are alive and organic too.

Bob Kolker


Post 67

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
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We just plain meat people are alive and organic too.

Well - somebody has to provide the roasts.....;-)


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Post 68

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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After monitoring Bob Kolker's posts over the past few months, I've decided that "he" is a very simple AI program that parses input looking for a few keywords and then outputs pithy, contrarian statements. Obviously, his programmer intended that the sole purpose of this software was to see if it was possible to engage others in pointless exchanges, and for how long. This is more than simple conjecture as "Bob" has revealed his true nature over and over with statements such as "I have no mind". Take "him" at his word.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 69

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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Nice double entendre`, Rev'rend!

Ed
[anyway, I think that's how you spell it]

Post 70

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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There is nothing A (artificial) about my I. Once again we see Mind Chauvinism at work. Mind Folk imagine they are the only ones with Real Intelligence. Any one of them could be simulated by a sufficiently complex finite state automaton.

Bob Kolker


Post 71

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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You guys better not mess with his Bob. This is what his endoskeleton looks like:



Post 72

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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All right guys, we're having fun now. Overlooking our individual differences and gathering together against a common enemy. I also think that this should go on for a little longer (because it's fun, and Bob does deserve it), but not for "too much" longer.

Else we might find ourselves pursuing a good end by evil means (and you know where THAT goes).

;-)

Probably 2 or 3 more creative pot-shots at the local meat puppet, and then I think maybe we should simmer (pun intended) down.

Ed
[the new Phil Coates!]

Post 73

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:10pmSanction this postReply
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Bob:  "I have no mind, but I am organic through and through...."

 

I have no mind, but I claim knowledge (i.e., consciousness).

 

Bob:  "The only philosophical principle I hold absolutely is the law of non-contradiction. There are no contradictions in reality."

 
Think maybe you better find yourself another absolute to hang that organic hat on, huh, Bob?

You can go on pretending you don't have a mind, but not without admitting that you're a walking, talking contradiction in terms.


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Post 74

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

 

If you’re going to play Phil, you have to start your posts with little headlines bracketed by double asterisks, like this:

 

**Unfair Debating Tactics: the logical fallacy of looking for 'dirt', dropping context, and switching meanings**

 

**instead of admitting error, digging in one's heels and vehemently defending an equivocation**

 

Clever little headings inform the reader of the subtlety and ingenuity of your analysis in advance, so that you can proceed to make whatever arbitrary, unsupported accusations you feel like.  Try to make your follow-up commentary as rambling and confusing as possible, so people won’t notice that your headline was baloney.

 

Spineless moral relativism won’t get you very far if you don’t dress it up a bit.  Hope you find this helpful


Post 75

Saturday, March 1, 2008 - 12:27pmSanction this postReply
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It seems to me that one of the major problems with those denying the mind because it not fit into the simplistics of physics [or rather, it would appear to violate somehow] is acting as if the only 'mind' in question is that of the human - omitting all the biologicals called animals, where, due to the developed complexities of the neurological apparatti there arises a need for something more survivable than the mere basic 'pleasure/pain' mechanism [the consequence of using just the senses]...  even if one wishes to address this as biological robotics, there none the less then comes a time where even the heuristics of decision making needs more than the formulaic of perceptual concretes - hence the rise of the conceptual [which in no ways violates physics properties, merely making more immediate use of the physics and extrapolating to probabilities to extenuate the survivability of those possessing this]....these biologicals are called humans.....

now, one could say  there is just the neurological circuitry being employed in all this - true enough - BUT -

this processing, in order to function in its heuristics, needs make use of what is called the 'mind' - that is, this 'mindfulness' is an inevitable consequence of the complexity which is involved in conceptual processing for a biological....  it is not a fantasy, but it is means of allowing the processing to take place in a fashion which is efficient enough to permit survivability...  the consequental development of this, tho, is by physical 'laws', even if at this point we not know sufficient to detail it......  remember, logic is non-contradictory identification, and as such, I see no contradiction in this progression of complexity, even if some of the steps not as yet provide 'proof' other than at present an 'intuition' as to how it fits....


Post 76

Saturday, March 1, 2008 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
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from post 75 R. Malcom says:

this processing, in order to function in its heuristics, needs make use of what is called the 'mind' - that is, this 'mindfulness' is an inevitable consequence of the complexity which is involved in conceptual processing for a biological.... it is not a fantasy, but it is means of allowing the processing to take place in a fashion which is efficient enough to permit survivability... the consequental development of this, tho, is by physical 'laws', even if at this point we not know sufficient to detail it...... remember, logic is non-contradictory identification, and as such, I see no contradiction in this progression of complexity, even if some of the steps not as yet provide 'proof' other than at present an 'intuition' as to how it fits....


I reply:

Your usage of the word "mind" or "mindfulness" indicates a physical process from the git-go which is precisely what I have been saying. Mind as a stand alone object or a substance not subject to physical description is nonsense. Mind as a name for some kind of physical process fits the facts.

Which has been my position from the beginning.

Democritus and Leucippus were right as rain, in so far as they went at their early level of physical understanding.

Bob Kolker




Post 77

Saturday, March 1, 2008 - 2:04pmSanction this postReply
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Robert M,

 

Your post (#75) gives an excellent summation of some key differences between the animal and the human form of consciousness. I think you’re right that reductionists like Bob gloss over this fundamental difference, largely because they see no way to account for the progression within the limits of current scientific knowledge.  (Notice how Bob K equivocates between consciousness—whether animal or human--and the “physical process” which engenders it.  This is much easier to get away with when we are discussing perceptual level functioning.)  One major challenge here, of course, is that of accounting for free will as exercised on the human conceptual level.

 

David Kelley had some terrific insights on this in a lecture entitled “The Nature of Free Will.”  The following is my paraphrase of some of what he had to say:  

 

Consciousness emerges as a control mechanism at a certain stage of development within a biological nervous system, to preserve an organism’s ability to function as a unit—i.e., to deal with external factors by the standard of the organism’s survival needs.  With man, the same problem breaks out at the level of consciousness itself.  The conceptual mind is in danger of being pulled in numerous different directions at once, as man is confronted with the need to make choices in the light of an open-ended amount of knowledge.  To preserve his capacity to function as a unit—i.e., to survive—man was in need of a higher level control mechanism—the capacity to focus.  Within a complex system of neural organization, such as the human brain, an event could easily be the product both of antecedent factors (i.e., evolution) and other simultaneous factors operating at higher and lower levels of this organization.  The capacity to focus (“free will”) is a product of upward causation (evolution) and constrained by it, but the choice to focus is an instance of pure downward causation—of conscious activity directly affecting neural activity.

 

(Again this is my paraphrasing.  Kelley deserves credit for the insight, but should not be held responsible for my interpretation.)

 

You say:

 

the consequental development of this, tho, is by physical 'laws', even if at this point we not know sufficient to detail it......  remember, logic is non-contradictory identification, and as such, I see no contradiction in this progression of complexity, even if some of the steps not as yet provide 'proof' other than at present an 'intuition' as to how it fits....

 

Although I question your comment that the exercise of conceptual-level volition must adhere to ‘physical laws’—we cannot say at this point whether something else may be involved beyond the laws of physics—you re certainly right in stating that we presently have nothing much beyond “an intuiton” as to how it all works.   The fact that Kelley must resort to metaphors (“upward” and “downward”) to explain the process demonstrates how little we presently know.

 

 


Post 78

Saturday, March 1, 2008 - 2:45pmSanction this postReply
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Hardin writes:

Your post (#75) gives an excellent summation of some key differences between the animal and the human form of consciousness. I think you’re right that reductionists like Bob gloss over this fundamental difference, largely because they see no way to account for the progression within the limits of current scientific knowledge. (Notice how Bob K equivocates between consciousness—whether animal or human--and the “physical process” which engenders it. This is much easier to get away with when we are discussing perceptual level functioning.) One major challenge here, of course, is that of accounting for free will as exercised on the human conceptual level.

I reply:

Of course. The physical processes are all that can be objectively detected and in some cases measured. What else is there? If there is something else, where is the objective, empirical evidence for it that can be inter subjectively witnessed? If it can't be detected, then it might as well not exist. Just like lumneniferous aether. No one believes in aether anymore either. Just like no one believes in Vital Essence or Life Force or Phlogiston or Caloric. All of these pseudo substances have failed to be empirically detected, measured and verified. These "substantial" approaches have all failed, each and every one.

Since brain science qua science is less than a hundred and fifty years old, it is no surprise that the reduction to basic physical processes is yet to be done. Do so it musch harder than particle physics. Whether or not a formal reduction can be made, the total lack of evidence for anything BUT a physical basis strongly suggests that what we call consciousness is a physical process in the physical brain. All other approaches lead to ghostly non-detectable substances obeying no definitive laws and not capable of being objectively observed. In short, your notion of mind or consciousness is a ghost in the attic. I do not believe in attic ghosts for the same reason that atheists do not believe in gods. No evidence to support the belief.

Find some evidence (objective and inter subjectively witnessed, of course) for an immaterial mind and you will become one of the most celebrated thinkers in Western History. I would not bet a plugged nickel that you can do it, but, hey, one never knows.....

So I ask again. Where's the beef? Produce the evidence.

Bob Kolker

(Edited by Robert J. Kolker on 3/01, 2:46pm)


Post 79

Saturday, March 1, 2008 - 7:40pmSanction this postReply
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Find some evidence (objective and inter subjectively witnessed, of course) for an immaterial mind and you will become one of the most celebrated thinkers in Western History. I would not bet a plugged nickel that you can do it, but, hey, one never knows.....

 

Well, Bob, there’s my objective evidence.  The fact that you wrote this and not a “monkey with a typewriter” is proof.  Thoughts cannot be formulated by ghosts.  Physical processes do not use (albeit bizarre) logic to draw philosophical conclusions.  I am confident that other witnesses on RoR will confirm my findings.

 

I feel humbled.  Aristotle, Plato, Aquinas, Descartes, Hume, Kant, Rand and Hardin.  Wow.  If only my Mom and Dad had lived to see this day.

 

By the way, I find it curious that you use the word “inter-subjective.”   How can you acknowledge the "subjective," without also admitting that a “subject” must have a perspective  (i.e., awareness--a mind)?  Oh, well.  Just one more contradiction which you will proceed to sweep under your hermetically sealed reductionist rug.


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