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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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I, also, have had that thought but I fear that the country will have to come to virtual collapse with civil unrest, riots and perhaps a kind of civil war before that can happen. It's like a drug addict having to hit rock bottom with no hope of survival unless he renounces all his past behavior and rewires his view of reality.

Sam


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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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Yes, I agree with you.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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Sam, I really hope that you are wrong, and Barbara Branden is right, but I don't think so. I see it exactly the same way that you do. The current direction is downward and it is being done by the overall system in place and only the complete disarray of hitting bottom will change directions.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Isn't this what you were hoping for Steve?

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Post 4

Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

You think I hoped for Obama to win? Do you think I'm hoping for " the long agony that faces us" as Barbara Branden described it? Do you think I want Sam to be right?

Christ, Mike, what kind of monster do you think I am? You have seriously misread one of my posts, or I don't understand what you are saying.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

"only the complete disarray of hitting bottom will change directions."

I believe you made this point before the election. At least I remember it as part of the argument then. No, I don't think you are a monster. I didn't think you were as afraid of an Obama administration as I was. I have never had a sense of dread for the future that I have now. I am very afraid. I don't see as much of a ray of hope as Barbara. The left is consolidating their power. They have the media behind them, soon it may not matter if a few reasonable people "wake up" and have a change of heart. Power doesn't just corrupt the people "in power", it corrupts everyone. A violent revolution is out of the question.

Post 6

Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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The putative "right" is only arguing about where some of the massive package will be spent. The Republicans are not challenging the two pillars of it. Neither the source — the monetizing of debt, through the Federal Reserve and central banks abroad. Nor the excuse — a world-bestriding empire, now to be turned back to focus its waste of materiel and murderous intent on Afghanistan.

That's why the pitiful attention-seeking whiners of the Republican Party — again, the 14th House District of Texas excepted — won't get anywhere. I don't expect a neoconservative like Barbara Branden to grasp this, though.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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I disavow the comments and name calling of Steve Reed and regret their juxtaposition with my comment. I cherish the existence of Barbara Branden.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 1:52pmSanction this postReply
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Who said I don't "cherish the existence of Barbara Branden"? She's been heroic in making a place for Rand in the broader culture, from NBI to her biography and beyond. I've said so for years.

She is also, however — as one look at her traffic on Objectivist Living will tell you, which is one reason I don't post there any more — a vigorous neoconservative.

I have debated such subjects as torture with her as early as 2001. Her position on that, in principle and consequence, is nearly indistinguishable from that of John Yoo. If that isn't neoconservatism, especially when brought up against that fantasy construct of "Islamofascism," I don't know what is. I believe in calling matters as I see them.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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Other than being a self-redundant word, what is the fantasy of Islamofascism?

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Post 10

Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Yes, I've made that point before. It isn't an argument made in favor of something, and it certainly isn't a desire. It is more like an opinion about the size of the forces in motion. I try at times to find some puny silver lining, like saying, "Gee, if Obama causes us to hit bottom more quickly, that is better than if it takes longer and uses up more resources before we turn around." But that isn't the same as being on the cheering team for the destroyers.

Our whole culture has its most important parts moving towards destruction. The media, the primary schools, the intellectuals, the governments, the mainstream philosophies, the universities, the legal system, etc. I try to keep in mind that most of that giant train needs to be stopped and started back in the other direction - not just one or two cars. And certainly not just one or two of the conductors or ticket collectors, like Obama.

Post 11

Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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"Islam" does not imply "fascism." I wrote about this specious portmanteau term at length on Objectivist Living, 12 July 2008:

* * *

"Islamofascism" is as much an anti-concept as, if not more than, "extremism," against which Rand herself memorably inveighed 44 years ago in a talk and essay subtitled "The Art of Smearing." It agglomerates an emotional reaction with a supposed factual basis, in such a manner as to have the emotion overwhelm any rational examination of the factual basis.

In this case, the neoconservatives created "Islamofascism" to smuggle in a supposed motive, that of controlling governments, under a generalized (and encouraged) American revulsion to Islam. That emotive-religious cover, rarely admitted to, itself has several components: Fear of "the other," itself a dark side to religious motivations in general since this continent was settled. A long-standing revulsion in "Christendom" to Islam, extending back to before the Crusades. And partiality, along with unearned guilt, in regard to ameliorating what the Jews have suffered, especially those in 20th-Century Europe.

The covering emotive gloss is itself suspect, but the premise it hides is one that makes no historical or practical sense: That movements (if they can be called that) such as al-Qaeda want "fascism." They want nothing of the kind. The leaders have two broad political goals: Sharia law (far from universally held), and a removal of Western military forces and manipulations from their lands (emphatically universally held).

Whether those who want religious law are able to actually implement it is another story entirely. It's been historically difficult, even in Iran, and Saudi Arabia wouldn't have managed it without U.S. armaments. It's also, properly, the lookout of those who oppose it: either the Jews of Israel (who want their own theocracy, in varying degrees), or the often-forgotten Christian communities throughout the Mideast that are trying to keep their own independence of action, or the non-fundamentalist or secular-in-practice Muslims.

In any event, and this doesn't admit to being condensed to message-board length: If anything qualifies as an approach to "Islamofascism," it's what neocons such as Bolton, Kristol (father and son), and Krauthammer rarely, if ever, include in the concept. Those are the outright, admitted military-riven fascist dictatorships in such countries as Pakistan, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia. Yet those are given a pass, out of consuming hypocrisy, because they are "allies."

Instead, the tag is put on non-State actors that are both slippery in location and reactive in purpose. No one has demonstrated, the neocons' rhetoric included, that anyone is out to "destroy us." Al-Qaeda, itself a reactive product of our arming the Afghan resistance two decades ago, has no army or navy. It only has the armaments we've given them, in direct and indirect ways. It has neither the capability nor, frankly, the inclination to "destroy us" — whatever may be their wishes.

Its principals and those who sympathize with them want the American Empire out of their corner of the world. That grants them no virtue. It is, however, what they are entitled to insist upon. We have no proper business being there with our military or our covert operatives. We never did — practically, morally, or, as Ron Paul stresses, constitutionally.

The "threat" is ginned up, as it always has been, from the powerful on this continent wanting to secure by force what they could not have guaranteed access to in the marketplace. When we withdraw it, our business with them will be concluded, apart from doing something that is ignored in practice, whatever the bureaucracy and alleged efforts: actually defending the homeland.

(Stop any prattling about alleged suitcase nukes in Times Square or at Hollywood and Vine. The Soviets didn't manage those with a hundred times the resources and a thousand times the domestic sympathizers. Bin Laden knows that stomping on the paws of the U.S. government would only make it act more like a bear. He knows that playing with uranium hexafluoride will most likely send his true believers to Paradise prematurely. He's not stupid.)

The only danger to the tatters of this Republic is what we perpetrate on ourselves, with such atrocities as warrantless searches, shielding from prosecution, ID databases, and torture.

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Post 12

Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, It is very inappropriate to call Barbara Branden a NeoConservative - it simply does not fit. She is an Objectivist who applies some of the same basic principles that you hold in ways that you believe to be seriously wrong. You don't do your intellectual credence any good to use the wrong terms. If you look up the word, as I did when I was told I was misusing it, you will discover that it applies to former liberals - which would never apply to Ms. Branden.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara's cheerleading for neoconservatives such as Krauthammer — whose columns she text-dumps at the other site — and her support of such anti-concepts as "Islamofascism" (see above, and I omitted her specific slams at Ron Paul) makes her indistinguishable from them in political practice.

She didn't come from the Trotskyite (not just "liberal") left, as nearly all of the self-avowed neocons have. She arrived at their policy prescriptions from some other mysterious (to me) alchemy of premises and misperceptions. I don't like seeing it, she's far more capable and perceptive than that, but I'm not going to pretend it hasn't happened.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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I think Republicans have already begun to flock back to their "principles".  Being back in the minority means that they are again safe to preach their so called ideals without facing the danger of actually having to practice them or get them enacted through legislation.  They also know that voters are naive enough to put them back in charge once the Democrats have had their turn at botching things up.  Never with my support though.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Reed (too many Steve's),

Obviously, Barbara is way too easy a target for you. Why not go after someone who helped coax the term (Islamofascism) into popular usage, and has been exceedingly more critical of Herr Paul than anyone else I know of? 

 Robert Bidinotto, or perhaps Ed Hudgens.  They're both professional intellectuals and writers, Barbara isn't. Picking on her makes you look like a bully-troll, at least to me. 

Other than that, expect some blowback from other posters over the implication that America is somehow responsible for much of Islam's fascism.

The covering emotive gloss is itself suspect, but the premise it hides is one that makes no historical or practical sense: That movements (if they can be called that) such as al-Qaeda want "fascism." They want nothing of the kind. The leaders have two broad political goals: Sharia law (far from universally held), and a removal of Western military forces and manipulations from their lands (emphatically universally held).
Perhaps you haven't heard the UK government has sanctioned the use of fascist "Sharia Law" courts there?  And could it be possible you aren't aware of the utter fascist smack down of freedom of speech in the Netherlands? No more trash talking Islam there. None of that would be possible without the explicate support of all Muslims in that part of the world. None of them spoke out against it. Not one.
Whether those who want religious law are able to actually implement it is another story entirely. It's been historically difficult, even in Iran, and Saudi Arabia wouldn't have managed it without U.S. armaments. It's also, properly, the lookout of those who oppose it: either the Jews of Israel (who want their own theocracy, in varying degrees),
Which does not include "honor killings," I might add, or stabbing your kid in the head in protest.

As I've described, the fascists have indeed accomplished implementation of Sharia Law in Western Europe, and outright fascism in the Netherlands.

What kind of intrinsicism is it that blames the victim?  Your car was stolen because you left the keys in it, and, dammit, Sharia Law in Iran and Saudi Arabia is the result of U.S. armaments.

Incredible.

(Mindy, Reed means what he says here.  It's a language called "Paultard")

 

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 1/31, 5:32pm)


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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, in your post 11, you say Al Qaeda has no inclination to destroy us...despite their wishes. I suspect this is just mis-stated, but it doesn't make sense to me.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Steve is absolutely right that "islamofascism" is an anti-concept. It's redundant.

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Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Please, everyone. Follow Teresa's example and say Mr. Reed, or say Steve R. but not just "Steve" - there are 2 Steve's and a Steven in this thread, and that's confusing. Thanks.

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Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 12:47amSanction this postReply
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Steve R.,

It isn't accurate to say that Barbara Branden's position is indistinguishable from the NeoCons. She argues from the position of individual rights (whether or not you or I disagree with how she applies that principle), see is not in favor of liberal domestic policies, she would not claim that Democracy by itself is a goal or cure-all, nor is she on a Christian Crusade.

And, although I read your piece on the term "Islamofacism" I still don't find much fault with that term. Islam calls for very harsh penalties for those who refuse to accept Sharia. Islamofacists are those who want to impose Sharia on others - a very Nazi like thing to my mind. The call to impose the will of Allah and the dictates of Mohammed on everyone is real - like the calls to kill those Danish cartoonists. I'm an atheist and have been since age 14, so my revulsion towards Islam doesn't have any Christian roots. Nor do I share in any feeling of guilt regarding the holocaust. I also don't feel any fear of "the other." I tend to be intrigued by unknown others and want to learn about them - some I like, some I don't. Islam has earned my revulsion in an honest, straight up, rational fashion.

Al-Qaeda has been reactive as you put it in killing people, as terrorists do. Your descriptions really do tend towards moral equivalence or worse. I'm strongly opposed to our war in Iraq, but anyone that doesn't think the whole world should be hunting down Al-Qaeda like rabid dogs is not thinking straight. I believe that we need to oppose torture, observe habeous corpus and probable cause. But that doesn't mean we pretend that there aren't people that want to kill us in very large numbers for irrational reasons. Take a look at this delightful little article on an Al Qaeda cell that may have been developing a black plague weapon. Yes, there is blowback, there is a reactive element to our actions - but it doesn't change the nature of our enemies or what is happening across Europe and in England and what will happen here in the U.S. I think that your statement, "Bin Laden knows that stomping on the paws of the U.S. government would only make it act more like a bear." is really naive in the sense that making bears angry is what terrorists WANT to do - that is a mark of success for them.


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