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Wednesday, February 4, 2009 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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That quote was from thread about whether or not kids should be paid for studying in school. It was taken from this paragraph, "As an architect, I observe frequently, and think it is a great shame, that many people never develop a conscious enough sense of the pleasures of beauty, or self-actualization, or the admirable qualities of character in another person, or a host of other aspects of life. And failing to do so, they are ill-equipped to find the proper balance in their life. When choices need to be made, these folks know how to weigh two monetary options with great precision, but, for example, cannot reason just how much beauty and repose are worth in their built environment. And consequently, they end up always making the cheapest dollar choice and living impoverished lives. When I hear about a program to entice kids to study for dollars, I am saddened to think what life-long price they will pay for having learned such an equation so early in life, when they were most receptive to so much more."

Sometimes it is stunning to see what our culture is losing with our second rate educational system (and, I guess from mediocre parenting as well). The knowledge lost with each generation would be bad enough, the damage from psuedo-knowledge, PC indoctrination, and learned conformity is awful in its effects, the critical thinking skills never acquired leave a generation like birds that only think they can fly, and then when you contemplate the fact that those kids never even get within striking distance of what gives wing to real flourishing, it is so sad.

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Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
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In my opinion this quote is meaningless indefensible mush, especially in the context of the discussion where it was first given.  "Great shame"..."many people"..."concious enough sense"..."self-actualization"..."admirable qualities of character"..."host of other aspects"..."proper balance in life"...

All of this could mean anything to anyone.  This could be out of an Obama speech.


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Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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That’s right, Mike. Thanks; I didn’t want to be the one to say it.


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Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Mike. You've always been a big supporter. What would I do without you to cheer me onward. :-) I find it amazing just how low an opinion some people on this list have of me. What I have observed is that the posts that I believe have the greatest insight and of which I feel most proud are typically ignored, while the contributions that I believe to be least significant seem to generate tremendous response. I do thank Steve for picking up on this particular observation because I believe that it is insightful and certainly speaks to a very important part of my life. Mike, I'm sorry that it does not resonate with anything inside of you.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 4

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Well Jeff, I think you're a stand up guy. I have noticed however that a lot of the posts I think you're referring to come off as a little naive and even a bit to the left. Maybe thats where the animosity comes from. The guys who just came out swinging would have to tell you for sure.

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Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Considering Steve put it in context, seems Mike is showing a lot of concrete boundness...

Post 6

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan:

Because I think you are such a level-headed guy, I'm really taking your comments seriously. I have to say that I'm stunned to be categorized as "a bit to the left". Could you elaborate, because honestly, I have no idea to what subject areas you must be referring. I am also curious in what manner you would classify me as naive. I am seriously asking for your feedback as I would like to get a better understanding of how I appear to others. Thanks.

Regards,
--
Jeff

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Post 7

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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Mike, with all due respect, you have your head up your ass.

There are many qualities that can be inspired by leadership - the leadership a parent or a teacher might provide. You are talking as if the only things that exist are concrete, as if there were no such thing as a reaction to art, to literature, to examples of virtue, as if human inspiration was not possible or totally unconnected to teaching or leadership.

I have no problem at all understanding with adequate precision exactly what was being said in that quote. And more, I can appreciate the breadth of the intelligence and wisdom implied in seeing and expressing the need that is so abysmally lacking in our schools.

Let me illustrate a little bit...

"...conscious enough sense of the pleasures of beauty..." Here Jeff is talking about being able to grasp consciously what is behind our positive reaction to art. He is talking about things like "Music Appreciation 101." He is talking about the kind of awareness that Rand spoke of in The Romantic Manifesto. If one leaves all of their emotional responses unexamined they never acquire much ownership of them. They remain something of a puppet to aesthetics like someone who never thinks about any ideas in politics is a sucker for Obama.

"Great shame" is good writing - it is evocative. It sets a stage for 'great loss' and that is what our culture has suffered - a great loss. And shame is appropriate because we are looking at value choices made by politicians, bueracrats, and unions, teachers, and voters that over the years have torn much of the value out of education.

"self-actualization" is a good term. We have to activate ourselves to different degrees and in different ways. We have to become 'adult' in different ways to go out into the world. But some adults remain less than literate, less than fully independent, less capable of understanding their own motivations, less capable of understanding what makes others the way they are, less aware of virtues, and less virtuous then they might be. Self-actualization is a good generic term for referring to this kind of personal growth.

We each would disagree at some point on what is the proper balance of life. We would disagree with what are the most important aspects of our lives to put into balance, much less what the balance point would be. But clearly, as we move forward, carving out our own lives, we need to grasp that out of the many choices we can approach, there are areas where it pays enormous dividends to consider balance. To the extent that person hasn't grasped that, and school is the first place where it should be visited, they are handicapped in striving for a life that is as happy as it could be.

If you don't think that some traits of character are admirable and others aren't then you aren't the Mike that I have been reading on these posts in the past. So, I assume you got into a snit just because he didn't specify which traits. I think your whole objection was to not being concrete enough. Well, sometimes that isn't the desired, or required level of abstraction.

Jeff was talking about an entire level of abstraction that is missing from modern education.

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Post 8

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan,

I'd check again if I were you, because I can't think of any area where Jeff is liberal. As an Objectivist, he falls into the non-interventionist group on Iraq, as opposed to the interventionist group, but he isn't a pacifist or anarchist.

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Post 9

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 2:57pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, I'm going to try to present this in a coherent manner, and yes, this is OPINION. Honestly, a lot its not even the content of a lot of what you say, its that you come across with such a "Turn the other cheek" type style that a lot of it is a subconscious identification with other groups. Sometimes you speak like an objectivist, but you "sound" like a hippie. If that makes any sense. I honestly believed you were a really smart teenager until I read about your career and college years. Your posts really give me a "I'd like to buy the world a home, and furnish it with love" type vibe. I'll try to point out a little of what I'm talking about, using only the thread that was being discussed. I honestly don't have time to look much further at the moment.

"As an architect, I observe frequently, and think it is a great shame, that many people never develop a conscious enough sense of the pleasures of beauty, or self-actualization, or the admirable qualities of character in another person, or a host of other aspects of life."
What does this even mean, Jeff? What is conscious enough? Conscious enough by who's standard? Its a great shame that a lot of people are happy at a less developed level than you? Why? This whole phrase is subjective in nature, and you're an objectivist, Jeff.

" And failing to do so, they are ill-equipped to find the proper balance in their life. When choices need to be made, these folks know how to weigh two monetary options with great precision, but, for example, cannot reason just how much beauty and repose are worth in their built environment."
I'm sure that you didn't mean this as a profoundly anti-capitalism statement, but thats exactly how it comes across to me.

"When I hear about a program to entice kids to study for dollars, I am saddened to think what life-long price they will pay for having learned such an equation so early in life, when they were most receptive to so much more."

Again, seriously anti-capitalism. Atlas Shrugged is a huge statement of our shared philosophy, Jeff. In the gulch EVERYONE is paid or pays for their values. If you find value in a character that charges his love rent, and lets her pay it by doing housework while crippled, because
"giving" her something for nothing would be an insult to the person she was, then how is paying someone for something they've been disinclined to do because YOU value it is wrong? How can you say learning that "knowledge = concrete value" is a destructive equation for a child to learn? What in objectivism led you to that conclusion?

"Paying for grades is just another program that cements the entitlement mindset even earlier in life, forestalling the development of independence."

Again, from an Objectivist view, how is receiving a concrete value for a behavior in any way cementing an entitlement mindset? That you are entitled to compensation for WORK? The entitlement mentality is wanting something for nothing.

"I see the pay-for-grades idea as another obstacle in the path towards responsibility and independence and that is why I oppose it."

Getting something for work is an obstacle to responsibility and independence? Providing value for individual effort IF someone chooses to apply their self obstructs independence?

"A child who is taught the one-to-one relationship between work and a buck will be unlikely to ever apply themselves without a suitable reward."
I believe our shared philosophy indicates that no one should do anything without a suitable reward.

"ties people to factory jobs"
Why are factory jobs assumed to be bad, Jeff? Some people want nothing more than an honest day's work for honest pay. I certainly took this particular phrasing to imply the slavery of the worker. Gave me an anti-capitalist and leftish vibe.




Post 10

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the feedback Ryan. I'll take some time to digest it.

Regards,
--
Jeff

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Post 11

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
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"As an architect, I observe frequently, and think it is a great shame, that many people never develop a conscious enough sense of the pleasures of beauty, or self-actualization, or the admirable qualities of character in another person, or a host of other aspects of life."
What does this even mean, Jeff? What is conscious enough? Conscious enough by who's standard? Its a great shame that a lot of people are happy at a less developed level than you? Why? This whole phrase is subjective in nature, and you're an objectivist, Jeff.
.....................

Ok - I'm going to wade in here... this statement is a very clear one regarding how most folk regard their lives, more the range of the moment, with little long-range viewing, and for sure, nothing like an aesthetical appreciation of themselves [in part, yes, as perhaps luxurating at times in the bath with fragranced oils, and a glass of wine - but not as a 'way of life', as a way of 'seeing' the world as an extension to their aesthetic appreciation, from the colors of the sunlit trees to how other act and develop their own characters as self-created beings per individuals]... Conscious enough? yes, because it does require raising one's consciousness to see this, to extend the abstraction of aesthetics beyond the narrow concretes so oft given it - one can, for instance, see it in 'the art of cooking' but not in other equally aesthetically fulfilling areas, tho it is there, everywhere...

So yes, they ARE, objectively, "happy at a less developed level"... and no, this does NOT mean being a 'metrosexual' or other such silly nomenclatures [which, in many cases, is a cry by concrete-bounds of others who have developed a more extensive understanding of 'the examined life']...


Further - the proper expression is 'giving value for value' - it does not mean or needs mean value for money as the other value... THAT is the trader worldview...

(Edited by robert malcom on 2/05, 3:18pm)


Post 12

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff is a good guy. I don’t have any animosity against Jeff, Ryan. I don’t think I came out swinging and Mike didn’t come on too strong, as I see it.

Mike’s right that the quote is all mush in the context of the conversation it came out in (re: paying at-risk inner-city high school students to get better grades.) Jeff thinks it’s a bad idea. But ‘get them to appreciate the pleasures of beauty…’ yes, it sounds naïve, I think Ryan has that right.

Also in Jeff’s paragraph:
“When I hear about a program to entice kids to study for dollars, I am saddened to think what life-long price they will pay for having learned such an equation so early in life, when they were most receptive to so much more.”

I read near perfect non-appreciation of the conditions the kids in question are in. Drug gangs offer easy money, they may have never met someone who succeeded at anything except dealing, they’re seventeen and haven’t learned that effort works—that it improves one’s living conditions. $ for grades could be a concrete lesson for them, just the thing that could get them to change their thinking. And Jeff wants to lament that they don’t know the pleasures of beauty and he thinks they are receptive to so much more! They are a semester away from joining a gang!



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Post 13

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

If kids, and others, haven't learned a value system that is broader than just dollars, they are in trouble. Do you resent paying attention or having good feelings about anything that isn't paying you dollars, more dollars than anything else would pay you? People who think that rational egoism and Capitalism constrain everyone to only doing things that add dollars to their pocket have made their lives unnecessarily narrow and shallow and will make a lot of stupid errors.

If society has to compete on a dollar for dollar basis for the allegiance of kids who are being offered big bucks by gang-bangers in the drug trade, then we are in trouble. And guess what... It is the attitude that everyone needs to be paid for everything - in dollars - that caused that trouble.

Who is paying you to champion your beliefs and fight for what you want? Who is paying you to improve your life? What a passive approach that is. Is there a spread sheet that computes expected return on investment for the entries here at RoR? To be into living for one's rational self-interest should include an understanding that some benefits aren't part of a fiscal transaction. Don't conflate what I'm saying with altruism - not the same. I would rather be the one paying, and get a good teacher, than to be paid and work for grades in a class I wasn't very fond of.

If kids don't learn to work hard because it is in their self-interest (even if they are not being paid) then they have learned very little and will have shallow lives and be of little value to society as well.

Here is the bottom line. If kids think that it is in their self-interest to NOT work hard at learning when they aren't being paid, they have learned something equivalent to not thinking unless someone pays them. How about not breathing because someone isn't paying them.
--------

As to Chicago, I remember there was a teacher there who taught inner-city kids a love for fine literature - she was tough and demanded the most from her kids. She understood what Jeff is saying, and knew how to cast it in the form of classes that suited her kids. She motivated them and her success rate was phenomenal.

My opinion... People who have to pay students, don't have much more than that money to offer - they shouldn't be teaching. People who are looking for magic bullets won't find any. Most of the problem is in the system, but I've had enough teachers over the years to know how rare the good ones are.


(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 2/05, 5:39pm)


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Post 14

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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Jon:

I think you have certainly identified a real issue here. It has to do with a difference in how people approach their lives. And what I am going to say should in no way be taken as a criticism, it is simply an observation of a difference.

There are some people, and I identify myself as being strongly in this camp, who have a very idealized view of life. That is not to say that I am disconnected from reality. I think I am strongly aware of my present circumstances and have no trouble dealing with the day-to-day requirements of my life. But if you wanted to know what motivates me, that resides in an idealized, very long-range view of, to borrow a quote, not things as they are, but things as they could be. I am, without a doubt, a romantic through and through. While I can find joy in listening to a piece of music, appreciating a work of art or associating with others, my true passion lies in the realm of contemplating a better, more beautiful world, and once that is envisioned, working out how to move towards that ideal. This is what drew me to the profession of architecture. I am the king of delayed gratification, because if I ever get too close to achieving a goal, I have to move the post! If the goal is satisfied, then I've lost my motivation. I believe that this approach to life can be inscrutable for those that do not understand it at a visceral level.

There is another group that I would describe as practical. Their focus is mainly directed to the present. They look about and see conditions and then formulate plans for how to respond. This group also has ideals and can be very interested in making the world a better and more beautiful place, but they find their motivation in the ability to solve immediate practical problems which yield immediate results. These people get utterly frustrated if the goal is too far out and they give up because they judge the end to be unobtainable. I know this type of person intimately, because I've been married to one for well over 30 years.

In the case of this discussion about pay-for-grades, and in many other discussions as well I'm sure, I now see where the disconnect occurs. I honestly do not think at all about the inner-city school kids and their life growing up in a poor, crack-infested neighborhood. I'm not interested in rescuing one or two of these kids and setting them on the course for a better life. In an abstract sense, I respect these kids' individuality and wish them the best possible life, just as I do for humanity in general, but truth be told, their pain and suffering are really not on my radar. When we have a discussion like this one, my focus is on the big, and I mean BIG picture. I'm seeing the nature of education as a whole and how it could be redesigned to not only convey facts, but to teach people to see the world in new ways and to learn how to think critically. I'm thinking about the social/political changes that would be required to achieve these results and how changing all of those things seem to me to be within the realm of the possible, and just how exciting it would be to tackle this problem. I'm already thinking about the types of schools I would design to foster these new types of interactions between parent, child and teacher and how you could redesign housing and neighborhoods and transport systems to better meet the need of a more enlightened populace coming out of this sort of educational system. You may think I am exaggerating for effect here, but I promise you that this is the sort of stuff that actually goes on in my head.

So now I'm guessing that a practical person is saying WTF! This guy is a naive asshole and will never get anything accomplished with that approach. Well, you might be right, or you might be surprised at my ability to ultimately ground all this back in reality and devise a strategy for moving forward towards that vision. But getting back to the matter at hand, I can now see that the person who is focused on that specific kid who is dropping out of school might see this as all bullshit. It's not. We are just trying to solve different problems. And there is nothing wrong with that. Some of us are good at the more immediate aspects of life and others of us are good at the big picture. I don't think either group is right or wrong; better or worse; just different. And differences are a good thing because they allow more to get accomplished than could be done individually.

Assuming that I have explained this difference in clear enough terms, my question to all of you is, do you think that what I am saying is still bullshit, or can you see that this is another valid approach to the subject and to life and that being an idealist is not the same thing as being naive?

Regards,
--
Jeff

P.S.: Ryan, I think that this might address a number of your points, however one thing stood out for me. When you say "I honestly believed you were a really smart teenager until I read about your career and college years.", are you referring to my little literary exercise in describing my teenage job and building the giant Eveready battery? If so, I wonder just how mush misunderstanding that actually created! Me, a hippie! "'I'd like to buy the world a home, and furnish it with love' type vibe.". These are some of the funniest comments that have ever been used to describe me. I'm the kid that studied 2-3 hours a night from fourth grade onward, carried a briefcase all throughout high school, and had a pocket full of Autopoint mechanical pencils with different colored lead so that I could illustrate my graphs in algebra class. I got an after-school job at the age of 12 and loved it. I graduated high school a year early. To say I had few friends needs no further explanation I think. I read the Fountainhead at the age of 12 and learned how to think at the age of 21. I've never used drugs of any sort, never smoked, and only been drunk one time in my life as a result of submitting to peer-pressure, from which I learned a valuable lesson. Oh yeah, and I committed an act of complete whimsy by building the battery, enjoying every minute of it. Move over Abbie Hoffman! :-)

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Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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Reminds me of Peter O'Toole's character in "Creator", always referring to knowing "the big picture", as opposed to David Ogden Stiers' immediate, 'practical' attitude...

Post 16

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

“If kids, and others, haven't learned a value system that is broader than just dollars, they are in trouble.”

Yes, lots of trouble.

“Do you resent paying attention or having good feelings about anything that isn't paying you dollars, more dollars than anything else would pay you?”

No.

“People who think that rational egoism and Capitalism constrain everyone to only doing things that add dollars to their pocket have made their lives unnecessarily narrow and shallow and will make a lot of stupid errors.”

Sure. But I haven’t suggested that high schooler’s do only things that add dollars, but that by receiving cash for better grades they may discover, for the first time in their life, the connection between effort and pleasure, comfort, independence, etc.

“If kids don't learn to work hard because it is in their self-interest (even if they are not being paid) then they have learned very little and will have shallow lives and be of little value to society as well.”

Yes, they have learned very little! Shallow lives, little value to themselves or society, yes, yes! That’s what I am saying! They HAVE NOT ever learned that working hard is in their self-interest. They’ve come to believe that working hard is for suckers.



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Post 17

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff, no it wasn't the battery thing. Although that is hilarious. If I'd thought of that It would have been clear that you were older from the context of the story, I just never thought of it. In answer to some of Steve's comments. Yes, in a perfect world this sort of thing wouldn't be necessary. At the state of our technology and knowledge, it should not be necessary to introduce this sort of thing into the education system. Kids should be taught all of the values and nuances that respect for knowledge involves. They aren't Steve. To use a metaphor, The titanic is sinking. Instead of standing on deck and saying "Ships should be built better than this, I know it can be done." we have to start bailing the water out with whatever tools work. Yes, SOME students can be reached by more abstract and nuanced methods, and we should try that way. But ONE genius teacher isn't going to fix this. Systemic change is needed, and lets face it, it isn't likely. Until we can affect greater change a desperate program that involves widespread appeal to the lowest common denominator is what we can go with. Sure, you won't manage to grab many kids with this, but you will grab some. 1% reached breeds 5% in generation 2 breeds 15% in generation 3 and so on. This program is not supposed to form the base of these kids entire understanding of education. This sort of program is educational kindling. You don't base or sustain a fire with kindling. You START a fire with kindling and then transfer the guttering flame to something of greater substance.



Post 18

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

Where you said, "$ for grades could be a concrete lesson for them, just the thing that could get them to change their thinking." I agreed with that... but only to a degree. Kind of like priming the pump and then stopping it.

When this thread was started my first post ended with this, "Overall, I'd say that any voluntary activities of private parties that results in a net-net improvement is a good thing as long as we don't stop focusing on what is needed at a deeper level - which would be getting government out of the school business, rewarding honesty, punishing cheats, honoring achievement, respecting intelligence and productive work, and valuing knowledge."
---------------

Milken, the junk bond guy, used to go to one of the large foster care institutions in LA County and teach a class every now and then. One lesson he taught started when he came in and gave everyone in the class a large bag of pennies. Then he explained the rules of an auction and told the kids how that related to a free market economy - and about price, supply, and demand. Then he started auctioning off stuff that he brought in. Small candy bars, a couple of marbles, a comic book, and so forth. Then when he could see that most of the kids had spent most of their pennies, he brought out hot games, a walk-man, and CDs of their favorite musicians and the kids that hadn't spent all of the pennies got some real nice goodies... for pennies. It was really a lesson about saving.

Post 19

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

“as long as we don't stop focusing on what is needed at a deeper level - which would be getting government out of the school business, rewarding honesty, punishing cheats, honoring achievement, respecting intelligence and productive work, and valuing knowledge.”

OK. I agree with much or most of what you are saying. Jeff, too.

Thanks for the genius Milken story.



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