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Friday, June 26, 2009 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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There can be but one set of laws for a given jurisdiction.

You mean like how California has one set of marijuana laws on the federal level, and a different set on the state level, and they're squabbling about which set of laws to enforce?

Are you saying it is impossible to have different laws in a given geographic area, or that is desirable to have just one set of laws?

Minarchy and 'anarcho-capitalism' are so far apart as to be opposites.

If you draw a Venn diagram of minarchy and anarcho-capitalism, you'll find that anarcho-capitalism is a special subset of minarchism, where government funding goes from "very little" to "zero", just like circles are a special subset of ovals. The opposite of minarchy is total authoritarian despotism.

Total authoritarian despotism (think North Korea) =/= anarcho-capitalism.

And there can be no freedom for markets without the protection of individual rights. People require the protection of person and property against the intiation of force, fraud and theft to make markets free - to open the door for competition. And that requires laws that define those rights.

All true statements. Now prove that anarcho-capitalism is incapable of generating laws that define and protect those rights -- or that minarchism doesn't generally decay into the galloping statism we have now. (Note: cap and trade just passed in the U.S. House, 219-212.)

Do you want me to loan you my copy of "The Machinery of Freedom" by David Friedman to walk you through how all this can work?

Or maybe a copy of Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land", where he shows anarcho-capitalism at work, including a private judicial conflict resolution?

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Post 1

Friday, June 26, 2009 - 9:17pmSanction this postReply
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I assume, Jim, that your questions are aimed at Steve, and not myself.

But I would like to take the opportunity to comment on the (at least) six questions and two contentious assertions you have made above.

When I quoted Brant Gaede here: "Objectivism needs to be cut down to its roots and thoroughly re-evaluated and understood apart from all its principals, past and present. Most people--Objectivists--do not understand the actual terrifying simplicity of Objectivism and that the complexity and difficulty is in the details of living an individual life." You responded that you did not understand how living a non-coercive life could be terrifying. Of course, the quote said no such thing, so I suggested you reread the quote and pay attention to what the adjective terrifying was modifying. Then you decided to become an amateur literary critic, responding "Why not say "wonderful simplicity", thus painting following Objectivist principles in a positive light?" This shows, of course, that you did not notice that the quote was about the principal personalities of Objectivism, not about its principles, terrifying or not. Then in the end those two simple, annoying, unambiguous questions of mine became "vague," vague in some way that your eight or so contentions above presumably are not.

So, now, with the same attitude, you throw a bunch of absurdities and non-sequiturs at Steve to see, I assume, if any of them will stick.

The mere quantity alone is rude, even if one discounts the delivery.

I didn't hit you with eight or more contentions when you questioned the previous quote. I simply asked you to form one clear thought at a time.

Now we get this: "If you draw a Venn diagram of minarchy and anarcho-capitalism, you'll find that anarcho-capitalism is a special subset of minarchism, where government funding goes from "very little" to "zero", just like circles are a special subset of ovals." Well, this has at least two fatal flaws. First, government funding is not an essential in the definition of anarcho-capitalism, competition is. There is zero government funding in the headhunter societies of primitive New Guinea or the Amazon. I don't think you would want to present the headhunting Asmat (above) or the cannibal Yanomamo (center) as model anarcho-capitalists. Or even the Somalis, who only "tax" the international community. But maybe you would. And with competing governments, who will prevent any authority that wishes from augmenting its funding, some single central authority? Oh, no, then that wouldn't be anarcho-capitalism, it would be Steve's system. Of course, the more obvious flaw is the "goes from very little to zero" analogy. That's like saying there's no essential major difference between a man on a diet who eats very little and a corpse that eats not at all.

And note that in this analogy, anarcho-capitalism is the corpse.

Now, of course, all my questions here are rhetorical. I don't expect you to answer me, and I think the answers are obvious anyway. So I would suggest that if you really want to engage in dialog, rather than attempted point scoring with haphazard multiple attacks, you pick just one question for Steve, one well formed, well thought out question, and see if he will answer it.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 6/26, 9:33pm)


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Post 2

Friday, June 26, 2009 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

The California marijuana fiasco is evidence of need for one set of laws in the same jurisdiction. With two independent, sovereign governments, and two full sets of laws, everything would be as chaotic and unsafe to participate in as either a consumer or producer - wars between nations, between gangs, between tribes... all examples of attempts to apply two sets of laws to the same jurisdiction.
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You asked if I thought it was impossible or just undesireable to have two sets of laws for a single jurisdiction. Well, it is clearly not desireable, and looking at the two marijuna laws, it is possible, but only if you are willing to give up freedom and individual rights, as well as stability and the ability to make plans.
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You said, "If you draw a Venn diagram of minarchy and anarcho-capitalism.... "

I would not draw a Venn diagram of the sort you described. Your Venn diagram is using a hypothetical of spending as the essential criteria and that makes no sense. That would be measuring by nonessentials. Draw a diagram with the circle labled Capitalism as the one with laws that defend individual rights. Notice how that does NOT overlap with anarchy which does not have a single set of laws.

You said, "Total authoritarian despotism (think North Korea) =/= anarcho-capitalism." If your diagrams or criteria for judging political systems is the violation/protection of individual rights, then anarchy and total authoritarian despotism are closely related.
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You said, "Now prove that anarcho-capitalism is incapable of generating laws that define and protect those rights -- or that minarchism doesn't generally decay into the galloping statism we have now."

There is no such thing in reality as 'anarcho-capitalism' and never will be because capitalism requires a set of laws that that define and defend individual rights - a set of laws that are common to all people in the jurisdiction - a set of laws that are enforced. While anarchy by definition is not a government that enforces a single set of laws. Nothing left to prove. Your claim that minarchy will always decay into statism is just a bald assertion, and implies a Marxist-like determinism, as if people were not able to act on principles.
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Feel free to email David Friedman a copy of my posts, I'm not the one who needs to get his premises straight. From Wikipedia: "In his 1973 book The Machinery of Freedom, Friedman developed a form of anarcho-capitalism where all goods and services including law itself can be produced by the free market." Does he think that free markets grows on a tree? He wants to produce laws from the free market, but until you have the laws, and they are based upon individual rights, and they are enforced, you don't have a free market. That is only one flaw in his scheme - but it is fatal to the argument. The other flaw is that he isn't using natural rights at all. He is using a form of economic democracy - cost/benefit of the marketplace - as if all marketplace demand is compliant with individual rights. As if a majority has never decided to lynch or gas a minority. As if all economic decisions based upon perceived self-interest are rational.

Read his chapter on Police, Courts, and Laws - if the dynamic that he claims would generate a working system of fair laws really did work, they would already exist - we would not be sinking into statism and there would not be a Somalia. His theory is wishful thinking based upon unrealistic understandings of the world and a failure to be rigorous in his logic.
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Edit - I was working on this post and didn't see Ted's - He covered some of the same points that I make, so I apologize for the duplication (his is probably worded better - that classic education of his, you know - and it has pictures. Oh well :-)
Steve
(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 6/26, 9:47pm)


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Post 3

Friday, June 26, 2009 - 10:02pmSanction this postReply
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If there exist two different, mutually exclusive laws within the same jurisdiction, at least one of them will mandate the initiation of force, because if one law is just (i.e., non-coercive), then the other, by definition, will be unjust.

For example, if abortion is a right, then a law that prohibits abortion will violate that right, and will therefore be coercive. If abortion constitutes the violation of a right, then a law that defends abortion, will defend the violation of a right, and will therefore be coercive.

Therefore, insofar as it implies the operation of two mutually exclusive bodies of law within the same legal jurisdiction, anarchocapitalism is necessarily coercive, and in being coercive, non-libertarian.

The only truly libertarian political system is one in which a single body of law is enforced within the same jurisdiction, which is to say, a system that enjoys a legal monopoly.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 6/26, 11:15pm)


Post 4

Friday, June 26, 2009 - 11:47pmSanction this postReply
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I would not draw a Venn diagram of the sort you described. Your Venn diagram is using a hypothetical of spending as the essential criteria and that makes no sense. That would be measuring by nonessentials. Draw a diagram with the circle labled Capitalism as the one with laws that defend individual rights. Notice how that does NOT overlap with anarchy which does not have a single set of laws.

Really? Government spending is not an essential criteria to measure the type of governance? So, by this logic, a government with 99% of all income confiscated by taxation is closer to a minarchy with 1% of income confiscated by taxation, than that minarchy is to an anarcho-capitalist system with 0% of income confiscated by taxation?

Do you believe that involuntary, forcible confiscation of income is NOT a violation of individual rights?

Do you believe that the 2/3 of any marginal income I earn that is confiscated by taxation to finance a system of levels of monopoly government is not a violation of my individual rights to property?

Are you saying that capitalism can't function unless there is a monopoly set of laws? Seriously? You can't imagine a capitalistic society where, for example, a company could sell things over the internet to a group of people, with a completely different set of laws applying to each individual sale depending on where the person currently resides?

You can't imagine a society in the future where each individual could choose to be governed by either a Democratic set of laws relating to sales or a Republican set of laws relating to sales, with (say) more regulation and greater consumer rights and concurrently higher taxes applying to sales to a Democratic law abider versus the Republican law abider?

You really think that for all time, thousands of years into the future, a monopoly set of laws will always apply to capitalist transactions, with no one ever inventing a workable method of differing laws depending on the consumer's choice of legal codes relating to those transactions? You think that is simply impossible?

Even if, in the future, geographic barriers become so permeable that the notion of demarcation of physical borders becomes essentially impossible?

Or are you just saying that right now, here in 2009, anarcho-capitalism can't exist because no one has invented the enabling philosophical and technological breakthroughs to make them a practical reality?

I said: or that minarchism doesn't generally decay into the galloping statism we have now."

You said: Your claim that minarchy will always decay into statism is just a bald assertion, and implies a Marxist-like determinism, as if people were not able to act on principles.

Do you think "generally" means the same thing as "always"?

Can you see how what I said, and what you attributed to me, are two entirely different things?


Post 5

Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 12:31amSanction this postReply
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OK, let me give you a hypothetical example of competing sets of laws in a defined jurisdiction, and you can all try to tear holes in it and tell me why you think it won't work:

A certain state, almost evenly split between Republican and Democratic voters, decides that rather than using the current winner-takes-all method of political spoils regarding business regulation, they will allow a choice in laws regulating business. The Republican caucus in the legislature enacts one set of laws regulating and taxing businesses, the Democratic caucus enacts a different set of laws, and each business in the state must pick one of these two regimes, and prominently display this choice where potential customers and potential employees can see them and decide which legal regime to patronize.

If a store chooses the Democratic regime of laws, they are required to allow unionization under a card check scheme and must submit to government-run binding arbitration in case of labor disputes; they are subject to strict rules limiting their ability to fire workers; they are required to pay a minimum living wage of $15 per hour to their employees; they are required to have generous worker's comp programs and pay 100% of the premiums for a generous set of health insurance benefits; and they are required to abide by a generous set of rules for merchandise returns and other "pro-consumer" protections. They also pay high state sales taxes, passed on to the customer, to accommodate a stringent set of other business regulations.

If a store chooses a Republican regime of laws, they are not required to recognize or negotiate with any labor unions, and no employee can be compelled to join a union even if more than 50% of the other employees so elect to form a union; they have complete discretion to fire employees without notice and without cause; they are not subject to any minimum wage laws whatsoever; they are not required to provide worker's comp or health insurance, and if they do choose to provide that, they can pick any insurance plan or benefits they desire; sales are strictly "caveat emptor", with the store deciding what return policies or warranties they offer, if any; if a consumer doesn't like how they do business, their recourse is to not shop there any more and give bad word of mouth. They pay very low state sales taxes, reflecting a minimalist set of business regulations.

Potential employees can choose which store to be employed at, choosing either pay clustered around $15 - $20 hour and strong union and worker rights and benefits, or a wide variation of pay depending on individual ability with basically no benefits or defined rights other than the right to quit.

Customers can either choose to pay really high prices at the Democratic stores and feel really moral and good about themselves and enjoy lots of consumer protections in law, or pay much lower prices at the Republican stores and rely on the store's desire for repeat business and a good reputation to protect them, despite hardly any legal regime protecting them from alleged abusive practices.

***

OK -- your challenge -- tell me why you think this setup won't work of competing, non-monopolistic sets of laws that allow stores, employees, and customers to each choose a legal regime.
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 6/27, 12:35am)


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Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 12:41amSanction this postReply
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Jim,

You keep writing "anarcho-capitalist" as if had some logical meaning. After my arguments on just that, why would you keep using the term without even addressing what I said? That seems so ostrich like.
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Your example in post #5 is a government (not anarchy) and the situation already exists in that there are many cases where we can choose to select between two legal alternatives. I can choose to register democrat, republican, libertarian, etc. I can choose to have a business that is registered as single proprietorship, limited liability partnership, S-Corp, non-profit, C-Corp, etc. Whatever law that permits a choice also locks in some form of future enforcement if I violate it.

Anarchy is not just multiple sets of 'laws'... it is the absence of a sovereign state to enforce a set of laws. So, let's change your example so that anyone can make up a new set of "laws" and then later they can choose to not obey them.
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I'm choosing to ignore your post #4 as it was too scattered and felt disrespectful in its approach. The only valid statement you made was when you pointed out that you had used the word "generally" and I had, in error, used the word "always" - yes, they are different things, and it does change the meaning. But, when the statement is corrected it is still a bald assertion, and you still haven't addressed the argument made.


(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 6/27, 12:53am)


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Post 7

Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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Jim,

Steve is right. Your example is not one of anarchocapitalism; it's simply an example in which the government requires businesses to choose between either of two different types of operations. Once having chosen either of these, a business is required to adhere to it -- BY LAW. It can't go off on its own and choose a third operation, one which conflicts with the government's option and violates its laws. Strictly speaking, there are not two sets of laws here; there is only one, which mandates a particular alternative and which a business is prohibited by law from violating.

In fact, your example is really one that is consistent with laissez-faire capitalism, because it gives a business the freedom to make its own decisions, consistent with a respect for individual rights. If a business CHOOSES the Democratic or regulatory format, then it's doing so voluntarily; there is no coercion, and if workers choose to work for it and consumers choose to patronize it, it's the same story. But they could choose to do that anyway without the Democratic plan.

Suppose, alternatively, that the government gave doctors the choice of performing abortions or not, and women, the choice of having abortions or not. Would you call this choice two different laws? Or would you say that it's simply one single law, which respects the right to abortion both for women and for doctors? Of course, it's clearly the latter.

I'm afraid you'll have to come up with a better example. And good luck with that! :-)

- Bill

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Bill -- the example I gave wasn't intended to be an example of anarcho-capitalism. Rather, it was intended to refute your argument that one of the necessary preconditions of A-C -- competing sets of laws in a given jurisdiction -- wasn't workable and/or libertarian, i.e. this statement of yours:

The only truly libertarian political system is one in which a single body of law is enforced within the same jurisdiction, which is to say, a system that enjoys a legal monopoly.

So, I gave an example where two different sets of laws, drawn up by two different sets of lawmakers, could coexist, and be libertarian -- in fact, would be considerably MORE libertarian than the current monopoly, winner-takes-all approach to making law.

If you grant that what I presented could work, then logically three -- or five -- or ten -- different sets of laws governing this aspect of business could coexist, each drawn up by a separate set of elected officials.

So -- do you admit that the system I outlined could work, and be libertarian? If not, why is it not workable, or if workable, why is it more authoritarian than a monopoly government?

If you do agree that what I've outlined is workable and more libertarian, we can then proceed to examine some of the other necessary preconditions that would need to be shown to be viable before one could demonstrate at least a theoretical possibility in the future of a viable A-C -- and thus attempt to refute the contention expressed by some here that A-C is not a viable political system at all, and never will be, ever, and that a monopoly government is the only possible governmental system.




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Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 7:22pmSanction this postReply
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After my arguments on just that, why would you keep using the term without even addressing what I said?

Steve -- not dissing you. But you may have noticed that a plethora of counter-arguments have been advanced here by a number of people.

There are a lot of steps necessary to transition to an A-C society, and some of the folks here believe even these preliminary steps are not workable. So, job one is to show that these preliminary steps are not only possible, but more libertarian.

Bottom line -- only so many hours in the day, and I've got competing priorities for my time.

Post 10

Monday, June 29, 2009 - 4:15amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps what I'm driving at would be clearer with a slight change in terminology -- instead of having consumers, employees, and businesses choose between a Republican and a Democratic form of business law (with the right of businesses to switch allegiances at any time, and with customers and employees able to shop or switch employers at any store regardless of affiliation)

(Drum roll)

Call them the Galt's Gulch set of laws and the Parasitic Moochers set of laws.

That is, break up the monopoly of government, and institute the equivalent of Galt's Gulch in plain sight, distributed throughout the country, existing side by side with socialist sets of laws.

And suddenly a "progressive" tax structure that transfers wealth from the productive to the unproductive will break down, because the productive people -- the Fountainheads -- will switch to the Galt's Gulch laws and tax structure, leaving the parasites with no hosts to feed on.

Post 11

Monday, June 29, 2009 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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Jim wrote,
Bill -- the example I gave wasn't intended to be an example of anarcho-capitalism. Rather, it was intended to refute your argument that one of the necessary preconditions of A-C -- competing sets of laws in a given jurisdiction -- wasn't workable and/or libertarian, i.e. this statement of yours:

The only truly libertarian political system is one in which a single body of law is enforced within the same jurisdiction, which is to say, a system that enjoys a legal monopoly.

So, I gave an example where two different sets of laws, drawn up by two different sets of lawmakers, could coexist, and be libertarian -- in fact, would be considerably MORE libertarian than the current monopoly, winner-takes-all approach to making law.

If you grant that what I presented could work, then logically three -- or five -- or ten -- different sets of laws governing this aspect of business could coexist, each drawn up by a separate set of elected officials.
Jim, the point you're not seeing is that these aren't "laws." A law in this context is a government mandate that must be followed; it's not optional.

For example, a "law" against abortion doesn't simply say that if you agree that abortion is wrong, you can abstain from receiving or performing abortions; it says that you have no right to receive or perform an abortion. A minimum-wage law doesn't simply say that if you don't want to charge or accept a wage below a legal minimum, you are free to do so. It says that you have no right to charge or accept a wage below the legal minimum. A law is one that must be followed under threat of fine or imprisonment.

The reason you can't have two laws within the same legal jurisdiction is that they would cancel each other out. For example, a law that set the minimum-wage at $8.00 an hour would invalidate a law that set it at $10.00 an hour, and vice-versa. Both laws cannot coexist within the same jurisdiction. They are mutually incompatible.

- Bill

Post 12

Monday, June 29, 2009 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

I love the idea of a set of laws that are far more Objectivist and that people could choose them. I love that they would be visible - sitting side by side with the parasite laws. But it is still not any form of anarchy. It is one government, with two (or more) sets of laws, but only one of which would apply at any given situation (which is just an issue of jurisdiction). We already have some of this in the differences between states - producers have been moving out of California for some time. We had this competition with two governments when Berlin was split down the middle, and we have it with the border between Mexico and the US. But those are examples of two governments each with its own geographic territory. If we reduced the degree of federal power way, way down, then there would be much more competition between states and people would vote more with their feet.
----------------

You said, "...break up the monopoly of government..."

But what you proposed doesn't do that at all. There is still a single government. You just created two departments - one is for creating and administering Objectivist laws, and the other for socialist laws. We already have sets of laws for children, sets of laws for contracts, sets of laws for international relations, etc. Jurisdiction is more than just geographic, it is also about matching a situation to the proper set of laws, the proper court, the proper department, etc.

You keep giving arguments that favor a government that is sovereign over a given territory and that enforces one of a set of laws. People can not opt out altogether, and they can not just make up their own 'laws' - no anarchy in what you are arguing for.

Post 13

Monday, June 29, 2009 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I agree with the thrust of your argument made in the last post, but there are some laws where the person does make a choice between sets of laws. You can choose to do business as a single proprietorship or an S-corporation, for example. But once you choose, you will be subject to the laws that apply to the choice made. You can live together or get married. You can live in Nevada or in California. But none of this changes the thrust of your argument, which is that you can not opt out of the law as such, or make up your own laws. Jim's system of two sets of laws would only work in a theoretical sense, but not in a practical sense - too complex to implement. And they would not be an example of anarchy - just an unworkable, complex government.

Post 14

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 - 8:30amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I still wouldn't call these "laws" -- "by-laws" perhaps, but not "laws. A "by-law" is "a law of local or limited application, passed under the authority of a higher law specifying what things may be regulated by the by-law, or it can refer to the internal rules of a company or organisation." (Wikipedia) I don't see any difference between what you're referring to and the obligation that one assumes by joining a home-owners' association in which one is bound by certain restrictions on the use of one's property or by signing a rental agreement specifying what kinds of actions one is allowed to take with the property one is renting. Private parties are certainly free to sign contracts binding them to actions under the terms of the contract, but this kind of binding agreement is not what I would call a "law" in the sense in which that term applies to the authoritative actions of a government.

- Bill

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