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Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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I'm inclined to agree with Jesse Walker's snarky assessment of Peikoff in the linked article: "You can't say that about Leonard Peikoff, the officially designated "intellectual heir" of the novelist Ayn Rand. (I think that means Peikoff inherited Rand's intellect after it died.)"

It's one thing to say controversial things to garner attention, but it doesn't appear Peikoff has got his facts straight. If I understand it correctly, some level of government owns ground zero, so why would they grant permission to build there, and then bomb the resulting structure built there by the people who have acquired those leased property rights?

I think it's a terrible idea to lease that land to the particular radical Muslim group that wants to build that mosque, but should that leasing occur, it seems inconsistent with Objectivism to say that the (temporary) owners of a property can have their property rights thoroughly violated without due process by the very institution that transferred those property rights.

If you don't defend the right to secure property rights, even for people who you despise, you're in league with the collectivists.

Post 1

Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

Where did you find this quote? Is there a wider context for it? Does he give his reasons?

Post 2

Friday, July 30, 2010 - 3:36amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

You can hear Peikoff say these exact words in his podcast, and get the context for it there. He pretty much means what he says, here.  They even recorded a "disclaimer" afterward. The podcast is about a month old.

Peikoff admits that the subject is just too upsetting for him to comment further.


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Post 3

Friday, July 30, 2010 - 4:16amSanction this postReply
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TSI shared:

Peikoff admits that the subject is just too upsetting for him to comment further.

Peikoff should only comment on subjects on which he can maintain a rational state of mind.

Clearly this quote came from unexamined, unprocessed emotions -- an "emotional hijacking" of sorts.

I understand his sentiment but disparage his proposal!

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Post 4

Friday, July 30, 2010 - 4:57amSanction this postReply
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> Peikoff should only comment on subjects on which he can maintain a rational state of mind.

Exactly.

Peikoff is the best teacher I ever had. But sometimes he goes off the deep end. Specifically, he is often bad at the -application- of his theoretical and philosophical principles.

This is a grotesque initiation of force and a crystal clear violation of the principles of Objectivism. (He attempts to defend it by saying we are in a war and that trumps property rights. For what's wrong with that, see my post starting the thread "Are we at war with Islam".)

Emotionalism (in this case being so angry or upset you lose the context) is probably the reason.

Post 5

Friday, July 30, 2010 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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By the same principle, wouldn't Peikoff have to say that no mosques should be allowed anywhere in the U.S.? I mean, if we're at war with Muslims, such that bombing their mosques is permissible, then they should be viewed as enemy combatants, arrested and either imprisoned or deported. Does Peikoff favor that as well?

I could understand that if they're radical Muslims who are recruiting terrorists and planning violent attacks, you would not want to allow them to build a mosque as a base of operations. But in that case, the prospective owners should be arrested on racketeering charges or deported.


(Edited by William Dwyer on 7/30, 9:56am)


Post 6

Friday, July 30, 2010 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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I recommend listening to Dr. Peikoff's podcast from which the quote was taken. I agree with him on this issue.

BTW, his designation as Rand's intellectual heir refers to her intellectual property.


Post 7

Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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Bob,
I listened to the podcast.  Here's how I summarize his argument.  I'd be interested in whether you think I got it right and whether you agree with it.

Premise 1: When your metaphysical survival is threatened, property rights are no longer protected.  (Peikoff gives the usual example of a person violating someone's property rights in order to survive.)
Premise 2: Allowing the building of a mosque near ground zero would be seen as capitulation and would send a message that we are weak to the Islamic fundamentalists, thereby threatening our metaphysical survival.
Conclusion: The property rights of those who want to build the mosque are not protected in this case.  (I think Peikoff was assuming that it's a private property issue, even though, I believe, the property is publicly held.)

Thanks,
Glenn


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Post 8

Sunday, August 1, 2010 - 7:49amSanction this postReply
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Glenn, I agree with your summary. For more on this issue, I recommend Edward Cline's The Insidious Ground Zero Mosque and Pat Condell's YouTube video No mosque at Ground Zero.

Post 9

Sunday, August 1, 2010 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Glenn, for the summary. That is an accurate summary of Peikoff's argument and when you boil down the basic structure of an argument in a few sentences it makes it much easier to analyze whether it is valid or invalid without getting lost or off on tangents or side issues.

In this case, it's invalid.

1. As opponents of Peikoff's view have pointed out, the best way to see the fallacy of a principle or premise like "our metaphysical survival is threatened" by the "capitulation" of allowing a religious structure near ground zero is to apply that principle more widely than to just this mosque and see where it leads: To using force -in general- against ideas which certainly do 'threaten' our very survival.

2. Related to this, is the next argument made against what I've just pointed out: Yes, but this is different--we're at war with Islam. [This is the heart of Ed Cline's argument in the post Bob Palin just linked to.] I explained in great detail what is wrong - and what is equivocating - with that proposition in my lead essay in the thread "Are we at War with Islam?".



(Edited by Philip Coates on 8/01, 10:14am)


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Post 10

Monday, August 2, 2010 - 12:16amSanction this postReply
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What in the hell is "metaphysical" survival? Assuming that this simply means normal survival, the argument Glenn summarizes is clearly bogus. Let's examine the premises to see why.

Premise 1: When your metaphysical survival is threatened, property rights are no longer protected. (Peikoff gives the usual example of a person violating someone's property rights in order to survive.)

The mosque would not be a direct threat to our survival, unless you can show that the clerics who would preside over it are radical Islamists who would use it to mount further attacks. But in that case, stopping it is a simple matter of retaliatory force, which is always justified. There is no need to invoke emergency ethics.

Premise 2: Allowing the building of a mosque near ground zero would be seen as capitulation and would send a message that we are weak to the Islamic fundamentalists, thereby threatening our metaphysical survival.

This premise could justify virtually anything. Suppose that our failure to murder the innocent children of devout Muslims would send a message to Islamic fundamentalists that we are weak. Are we then justified in murdering the children?

Conclusion: The property rights of those who want to build the mosque are not protected in this case. (I think Peikoff was assuming that it's a private property issue, even though, I believe, the property is publicly held.)

Apparently he didn't even bother to check whose property it was; otherwise, he would have seen that it was publicly owned.



(Edited by William Dwyer on 8/02, 1:16am)


Post 11

Tuesday, August 3, 2010 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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I heard today on the news that the site on which the proposed mosque would be built is private property. Really? That isn't what I had heard previously. Can anyone verify this?

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