About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Post 20

Monday, March 7, 2011 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Deleted per request.
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 3/08, 12:02pm)


Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Post 21

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 4:29amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'd disagree that its human nature to be productive.

Some humans have the nature to be productive. All humans are evolutionary life forms.

Evolutionary life forms in general have the goal to keep themselves alive, reproduce, and assist their relatives. Call this the "General Goal of Evolutionary Life Forms" (GGELF). Humans are very intelligent compared to other life forms. With their intelligence, they can find all sorts of new ways to accomplish the GGELF.

In a given environment, over time, if there is a new niche where life can successfully accomplish GGELF, then some life will likely adapt to that niche. This happens more quickly if the niche requires only some simple intelligence problem solving, less quickly if it requires complex intelligence problem solving or biological (genetic/physical) changes.

There is a niche in capitalist society to beg instead of work. There is a niche in democracy for beggars to become leeches and vote for more wealth redistribution. There is a niche in democracy for politicians to steal from the productive to satisfy the leech majority. These niches require only simple intelligence problem solving.

Hence, it is currently human nature for some humans to leech in our democracy.

Just like there are deformities like children born with a hole in their heart, there are people born that lack the general goals of all evolutionary life forms. This is just a side note, nothing to do with my main point on what human nature is.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 22

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hayek is right in that there is a continuum of objects (goods and services) which are more or less money in different contexts. 

We have to accept that "direct" and "indirect" are discrete: you cannot be halfway between them.  However, "commonly accepted" is not discrete.  One commodity can be prefered by 37.9% and another service wanted by 52.5.% and neither one might be the nominally dominant money.  For instance, in Rome, the sestertius was the money of account -- and we have sestertii coins -- but the preferred coin was the denarius.  Another example is the invention of "money of account" in the Middle Ages.  Bankers and merchants tallied pounds-schillings-pence, but might pay in Hall heller or English pennies or silver bars weighing one mark. 

In our world, here and now, the FRB and all economists talk of M0 and M1 and so on. (M3 no longer exists.)  About 2000-2001, I heard Alan Greenspan on the radio saying that there were so many forms of money, the Fed could not count them all and stopped trying at about 14 or 15 and only reported on six. 

(M0 is coins and notes.  M1 is checking and saving demand deposits.  M2 is long term savings under $100,000.  M3 was time deposits over $100k, plus other funds such as repurchase agreements, and "eurodollars" (dollars held in European banks by Americans.  Which is of these, I ask is "commonly accepted" as "money"?)

If you go to the "Spanish Coins on American Money" website here you will see private banknotes from the early 1800s, that promised payment in dollars or cents, but showed coins from Spain and Mexico.  The US Mint was active, but most people in many places recognized other coins as the preferred money.  In fact, if "commonly accepted" is defined by strict majority rule, then the US Silver Dollar was not, but the Spanish Milled Dollar was.  But those wildcat notes were "commonly accepted" only in a limited local range... though... As Murray Rothbard cites in his plargiarized book on early US banking, the private paper money of certain Boston banks was indeed widely accepted, in preference to the local product, and we know that from here in Michigan into the 1890s.

The Fed and all economists do not consider credit cards money because they are a loan.  However, when you use a credit card to buy a gift card, you create money for the recipient.  At the last MSNS convention, I put up two educational displays, one on gift cards as money.  They other was on stock certificates.  You ever see one and read one? They are as transferable as a check or bank draft - and the FRB considers common stock a form of money, tracked  but not reported.  Whether and to what extent cents ("pennies") or $100 bills are "commonly accepted" depends on the context.  Our local bus line does not accept cents or $2 bills for fares.  (I have not tried a $5, but I don't give that much hope.)  Yet, they are all "commonly accepted" in other contexts.

For those special moments when cash would be awkward:


(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/08, 9:27am)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 23

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim,

Can you come up with a different example? Sexual slavery is not something I enjoy discussing even as an illustration.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 24

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
E. C. Riegel, whose books on the theory of money were recommended by Harry Browne, suggested a "labor scrip" issued by each person against their own abilities and time.  (Post on RoR Economics here.)  Banks would be the expected clearing houses.  Riegel lived in the late 19th and early 20th century NYC, so Greenwich Village was his conceptual model of a busy place in a small space where reputations were built (or lost) quickly.  In the middle 20th century, the theory was less supported by customs, but now with the internet, we are back to some kind of Greenwich Village model with communities, such as RoR.

Riegel's day job was retail clerk.  He was smart and likeable, and he worked when he wanted because local merchants were happy to hire him as they needed.  For him, "Riegel dollars"  would be accepted against his time behind the counter at different stores. 

In fact, today, we have many "community currency" efforts, prime among them the famous Ithaca Dollars.  Read about Traverse City Bay Bucks here and here.  (More on RoR Economics here.)  These are examples of third party labor scrip.  I am not advocating it in preference to gold for international commerce, but only saying, these are examples of how some labor scrips work.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/08, 9:20am)


Post 25

Tuesday, March 8, 2011 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean: well said in post 21. My thoughts exactly, but written better than I probably could have explained it. Sanction!

Bill: offensive material deleted per your request. I was trying to push the envelope to show how even the most bizarre things can be used as cash, but I am agreeable to conforming with the informal rules of etiquette here.

Or, to gently piss Steve off here, this was yet another example of a non-governmental approach to enforcing rules of conduct, despite those rules not being formalized, using the desire to preserve reputation to achieve preferable outcomes without coercion.

That is, if a group of people have accepted that non-coercion will, over the long run, likely produce the best outcomes for them, then the temptation to "cheat" will be minimized and the necessity for much or possibly any formal governance can be avoided for that group of people, so long as they are capable of repelling foreign armies or bands of marauding barbarians using non-governmental militias.

Shorter: if one sets up something similar to Galt's Gulch, it can be possible to avoid government in it's entirety -- to live in an anarchic society -- because everyone allowed to reside there would live by Objective principles.

I haven't checked, and I'm sure it wasn't Ayn Rand's intent, but I don't recall seeing anything that could be characterized as even a minarchic government operating in Galt's Gulch. Perhaps my memory is faulty and it is in there, or perhaps a government wasn't described operating there due to an oversight on her part ... suppose now I need to reread that section of the book to find out. =)

We have to accept that "direct" and "indirect" are discrete: you cannot be halfway between them.

I disagree. While the difference between barter and use of currency is, in modern societies, usually clear-cut, some fuzziness can set in.

Let me give a real-world example: during WWII, Allied prisoners in German POW camps wound up gradually adopting cigarettes as a form of currency, in an informal process. But, early on in the process, it would be possible for Person A to propose swapping some of their food from the care packages that periodically arrived from the Red Cross in exchange for Person B's cigarettes, with Person A having the intention of smoking those cigarettes personally. But, after that trade took place, then Person C might offer the use of a spare blanket in exchange for those cigarettes. And so on, with each person receiving the cigarettes thinking they would personally smoke them, but the cigarettes instead passing from hand to hand as a form of currency, until finally someone actually smokes the cigarettes.

In this instance, each of those exchanges has the potential of being either barter or an exchange or currency -- that is, either direct or indirect -- and that, until the person in question either smokes the cigarettes or uses them as money, the exchange falls ambiguously in between direct and indirect, and which of the two it is only solidifies at the moment when the cigarettes are traded or smoked, or when a more or less irrevocable decision is made either way via a enforceable bargain being struck prior to the actual physical exchange taking place.

Conversely, it turned out that in these prison camps the best-quality cigarettes were smoked, and the worst quality ones wound up being used as currency, which I would argue is an example of Gresham's Law working even in the absence of governmental compulsion or governmental setting of rates of exchange, "bad cigarettes driving out good as currency".

Anyhow, someone in this instance might agree to swap some goods they have in exchange for cigarettes, which they have the intent to use only as barter because they expect to get the cheap cigarettes, but the person on the other end of the transaction might be a newbie who was recently captured by the Germans and didn't understand the value of the different kinds of cigarettes, and thus overpaid for the goods received with good quality cigarettes when the other person was expecting to receive that same quantity of bad cigarettes. Reacting to this opportunity, the recipient of the good cigarettes then smokes them instead of trading them, thus turning a transaction that he had the initial subjective intent of being an indirect transaction into a direct transaction.
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 3/08, 1:01pm)


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 26

Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean (and Jim),

I'd disagree that its human nature to be productive.

Some humans have the nature to be productive.


There is a slightly-evolved form of the anti-conceptual mentality (a "statistics-bound mentality") which substitutes statistics for thinking in the abstract (statististics are thought to be abstract, overandabove being calculated, numerical relations of concretes). Existentialists are the most popular philosophers stuck within this mentality, skepticists follow closely in second-place. Anyway, it's a what-do-I-see-around-me-now-and-to-hell-with-thinking-in-essentials view.

Let's say that an Eskimo writes his cousin in the tropics and says that an ice block makes for a great table. You can set your dinner plate on it and it's even easier to clean if you spill food on it. The cousin in the tropics buys a huge block of ice and brings it home and immediately eats dinner on it. This cousin is so happy with the new purchase. The next morning the cousin goes back into the kitchen, now flooded due to melted ice. Frustrated, he telephones his cousin back in Greenland and has this to say:

"You know, you don't really know the nature of ice, because I am in possession of information which contradicts what it is that you had to say about it. In the very least, some ice doesn't behave the way you predicted. At the very most, some ice has the nature to be productively used as a table -- but it is not something inherent to ice, per se. In my experience, it is not statistically true that ice makes for a great table."

Now, at this point, the Eskimo can try to explain to her cousin about the nature of ice, the chemical composition of ice, the physics behind the bonding between atoms of oxygen and hydrogen, whatever -- none of that would matter to a concrete-bound mentality focused solely on statistics rather than essentials. It seems to me that you are having this same reaction with regard to human nature.

There is a niche in capitalist society to beg instead of work. There is a niche in democracy for beggars to become leeches and vote for more wealth redistribution. There is a niche in democracy for politicians to steal from the productive to satisfy the leech majority. These niches require only simple intelligence problem solving.

Hence, it is currently human nature for some humans to leech in our democracy.


But human nature isn't something which changes with the times.

Instead, a nature is required in order to presuppose any kind of a change anywhere, in anything. Going back to the ice analogy, is it proper to say that the nature of ice changed when it was viewed and used, on the one hand in Greenland and, on the other hand, in the tropics? No. The nature of ice didn't change. Instead, it was within the nature of ice to go through the kind of changes that the two cousins noted. In Greenland, ice "behaved" in a certain way, due to its nature. In the tropics, it did the same thing.

Natures don't change like that (reality isn't a mere flux), even though statistics often do.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/10, 12:23pm)


Post 27

Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 2:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, Your argument that human nature doesn't change is unsatisfactory in two ways:

1. That's more word games than an argument. I could call GGELF the basis of human nature (broadly), and the different ways its accomplished: productivity, begging, leeching, etc as simply different solutions given the context.

2. Evolution... "human nature doesn't change" is simply not true, when defining nature more specifically.

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 28

Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

1. That's more word games than an argument. I could call GGELF the basis of human nature (broadly), and the different ways its accomplished: productivity, begging, leeching, etc as simply different solutions given the context.
Are they all "solutions"? I understand that when you say "solutions" you mean solutions to GGELF: the problem of (1) survival, (2) reproduction, and what evolutionary biologists refer to as (3) kin selection (as well as simple reciprocity). But begging and leeching are not evolutionary stable strategies. The reason we can witness them in human populations is because, with man, there is wiggle room for evolutionary regression (some leeway for temporarily operating against your very nature).

In evolutionary science, your 3 stated goals (survival, reproduction, kin selection) don't get met by an unrestrained adoption of either of those last two so-called "solutions" (begging and leeching):

The communicative gene hypothesis notes that genes function by communicating, and the phenotype communication involves not only the individual sending and receiving abilities of the individual genes involved, but also the relationship between them relative to other genes. Therefore the selection of communication as phenotype involves the selection of individual genes and also their relationship. Relationships become replicators, and are selected across evolutionary timescales including social relationships (e.g., sex, nurturance, dominance-submission).

An interesting implication of this view: apparent altruism has been interpreted by selfish gene theorists as due to kin selection and reciprocity, in which the survival of kin and comrade indirectly favor the genetic potential of the altruist. From the viewpoint of the communicative gene hypothesis, rather than underlying altruism, kin selection and reciprocity are ways of restricting altruism to kin and comrade: they are mechanisms not of altruism but of xenophobia.

--Communicative Genes in the Evolution of Empathy and Altruism

Recap:
Begging and leeching (altruism-reliant behaviors) are not actually, as you say, genetic or evolutionary solutions to the problems of survival, reproduction, and kin selection -- though a restriction on begging and leeching (to preclude all strangers from the equation) would be. It's not the begging and leeching, per se, that are a potential solution to the 3 problems, but the restriction of all begging and leeching.

Otherwise, begging and leeching, in general, are unsustainable for the same reason that chugging down poison and playing Russian Roulette are activities that (even if they are temporarily engaged-in) are unsustainable -- because they contradict human nature.

2. Evolution... "human nature doesn't change" is simply not true, when defining nature more specifically.
That, being overly precise for the context at hand, is "word games", Dean. As far as I know, I discovered the fallacy -- the Fallacy of Supra-contextual Precision (Heisenberg Fallacy) -- 6 years ago, back in the spring of 2005. If you contain the scope of precision to within bounds prescribed by the context at hand, then it is accurate to say that human nature doesn't change.

Ed

Post 29

Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, You admit there are human leeches. Saying that its not in their nature to leech is ridiculous. Because clearly there are human leaches, so leeching is a part of some human's nature.

Post 30

Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Well said Ed. You illustrated what I was thinking in a way I couldn't quite convey. Thanks!

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 31

Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean you could say a leech is acting within his nature as a leech, but he's not acting in a nature that promotes his long term survival and happiness. And to say as Jim said that this is human nature would mean our species simply couldn't survive or flourish. So it's at least dubious to suggest this anti-life behavior is 'human nature'.

Post 32

Friday, March 11, 2011 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

Saying that its not in their nature to leech is ridiculous. Because clearly there are human leaches, so leeching is a part of some human's nature.
You're substituting statistics for essentials and I disagree with that. I agree with what John had to say about it.

Statistics isn't everything it's been averaged up to be.

:-)

Ed

p.s. An entirely different take on the relationship between statistics and human nature:
There are the various schools of modern philosophy which, rejecting the law of identity, proclaim that reality is an indeterminate flux ruled by miracles and shaped by whims—not God’s whims, but man’s or "society’s." These neomystics are not man-worshipers; they are merely the secularizers of as profound a hatred for man as that of their avowedly mystic predecessors.

A cruder variant of the same hatred is represented by those concrete-bound, "statistical" mentalities who—unable to grasp the meaning of man’s volition—declare that man cannot be an object of worship, since they have never encountered any specimens of humanity who deserved it.
--"man-worship" section of ARL


Post 33

Friday, March 11, 2011 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John: "Dean you could say a leech is acting within his nature as a leech, but he's not acting in a nature that promotes his long term survival and happiness."

There are species of leeches that have been around longer than the human species. The world is chock full of parasitic species, some of them incredibly specialized. You find an ecosystem, I'll find the parasites inhabiting it.

The mosquito that just bit my hand is acting in her nature, and to not act that way would mean she would be incapable of reproducing.

So, to accurately observe that many humans around us behave in ways that can be accurately described as parasitic is just observing reality, and to formulate theories that deny that some humans are capable of acting parasitically is to deny reality.

That doesn't mean that those people necessarily always act parasitically, since people are considerably more complex than mosquitoes.

John: "And to say as Jim said that this is human nature would mean our species simply couldn't survive or flourish. So it's at least dubious to suggest this anti-life behavior is 'human nature'."

I'm not saying that all humans at all times act parasitically. I am saying that it is an easily observed fact that some people act parasitically at least some of the time. If you hold my view that supporting taxation and its subsequent redistribution to other people via a check or a government program is a form of parasitism, then virtually everyone in America is parasitic to some degree.

This doesn't mean that our species can't survive or flourish despite some degree of parasitism, any more than one could accurately say that an ecosystem can't function if any parasitic species inhabit it.

I do not like parasitism, but as a biology major, I'm acutely aware of how ubiquitous parasitism is in every ecosystem, and also in some aspects of human behavior.



Post 34

Friday, March 11, 2011 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
... Supporting taxation and its subsequent redistribution to other people via a check or a government program is a form of parasitism[.] ... [V]irtually everyone ... is parasitic to some degree.
Bingo!

Whats the definition of nature? Is it that which would make the entire group of a similar thing the most successful? Or is it that which identifies individuals/groups? The nature of Ed, vs the nature of Helicopter Ben, vs the nature of homo sapiens... If you say that leeching is not a part of human nature, then a great deal of organisms who most people would classify as human would not be classified as human.

Post 35

Friday, March 11, 2011 - 9:46pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim

So, to accurately observe that many humans around us behave in ways that can be accurately described as parasitic is just observing reality, and to formulate theories that deny that some humans are capable of acting parasitically is to deny reality


The is a strawman. I didn't say that some humans are incapable of stealing. You said it is human nature to steal, that is a different statement.

If you hold my view that supporting taxation and its subsequent redistribution to other people via a check or a government program is a form of parasitism, then virtually everyone in America is parasitic to some degree.


There are so many things wrong with this statement. First this would mean even Objectivists and Libertarians support a welfare state. Which clearly they don't. By saying this your accusation must extend to most of the other posters here on RoR such as Bill, Ed, Joe, Teresa, Steve, et al support a welfare state. Even apparently you as well Jim, according to your position, support a welfare state. That is interesting that you think of yourself in that way. But please, don't project how you view yourself on to me.

Another thing wrong with your statement is the degree of one behavior your willing to attribute as an essential characteristic of human nature in absence of all other observations. If all humans to some degree are parasitic, then to a much more quantifiable degree, humans are far more productive than they are parasitic. Again, you can't possibly steal unless someone produces. And humans, generally speaking, spend most of their time producing than they do stealing. It has to be this way, because if it was mostly stealing than producing, the stealing would no longer be possible because nothing would be left to steal.


So I don't view human nature in the misanthropic manner that you do.


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 36

Friday, March 11, 2011 - 10:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim (and Dean),

... to formulate theories that deny that some humans are capable of acting parasitically is to deny reality.
You're overstating the case and building a straw man (just as John said above).

John, myself, and Ayn Rand don't deny that humans are capable of parasitism, only that parasitism is inadequate/insufficient as a rule of thumb for man. Think of a predator bird that spends a minute part of its life under water, diving after fish. When we talk about the nature of that bird, we don't include being underwater as part of that nature (even though time is spent there). That bird could never live under water, because that would contradict its nature as an air-breathing animal.

We don't refer to that bird as being "amphibian" (i.e., an animal which has water-dwelling in its very nature). Drawing on the example of the diving bird which is most definitely not an amphibian, there isn't an "amphibian-like" man who has both parasitism and production as part of his nature (even though some folks act parasitic). In the "Man" section of ARL, there are many entries integrating many facts which validate the idea that reason and production are so primary or fundamental to man's life on Earth -- that they are an essential part of his very nature (just like swimming is for fish, or flight is for a bird that normally flies -- e.g., hawk, eagle, etc.***).:

1)
Man’s life, as required by his nature, is not the life of a mindless brute, of a looting thug or a mooching mystic, but the life of a thinking being—not life by means of force or fraud, but life by means of achievement—not survival at any price, since there’s only one price that pays for man’s survival: reason.
2)
If a drought strikes them, animals perish—man builds irrigation canals; if a flood strikes them, animals perish—man builds dams; if a carnivorous pack attacks them animals perish—man writes the Constitution of the United States.
3)
To the extent that a man is guided by his rational judgment, he acts in accordance with the requirements of his nature and, to that extent, succeeds in achieving a human form of survival and well-being; to the extent that he acts irrationally, he acts as his own destroyer.
4)
If some men do not choose to think, they can survive only by imitating and repeating a routine of work discovered by others—but those others had to discover it, or none would have survived. If some men do not choose to think or to work, they can survive (temporarily) only by looting the goods produced by others—but those others had to produce them, or none would have survived. Regardless of what choice is made, in this issue, by any man or by any number of men, regardless of what blind, irrational, or evil course they may choose to pursue—the fact remains that reason is man’s means of survival and that men prosper or fail, survive or perish in proportion to the degree of their rationality.
5)
He is not exempt from the laws of reality, he is a specific organism of a specific nature that requires specific actions to sustain his life. He cannot achieve his survival by arbitrary means nor by random motions nor by blind urges nor by chance nor by whim. That which his survival requires is set by his nature and is not open to his choice. What is open to his choice is only whether he will discover it or not, whether he will choose the right goals and values or not.
6)
He has the power to use his cognitive faculty as its nature requires, but not the power to alter it nor to escape the consequences of its misuse. He has the power to suspend, evade, corrupt or subvert his perception of reality, but not the power to escape the existential and psychological disasters that follow.
7)
Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man.
8)
From the most primitive cultures to the most advanced civilizations, man has had to manufacture things; his well-being depends on his success at production. The lowest human tribe cannot survive without that alleged source of pollution: fire.
9)
"It’s only human," you cry in defense of any depravity, reaching the stage of self-abasement where you seek to make the concept "human" mean the weakling, the fool, the rotter, the liar, the failure, the coward, the fraud, and to exile from the human race the hero, the thinker, the producer, the inventor, the strong, the purposeful, the pure—as if "to feel" were human, but to think were not, as if to fail were human, but to succeed were not, as if corruption were human, but virtue were not—as if the premise of death were proper to man, but the premise of life were not.
***Note that it's true that, say, eagles aren't by-nature terrestrial animals even in the face of hard, statistical facts showing -- let's say, due to an outbreak of some kind of disease -- showing that a statistically large portion of eagles are found to be walking around on the ground (because of being sick). The same is true of parasitically-sick humans who likewise fail to "fly" -- even though it is proper to say it is in their nature to do just that.

To say that parasitism is part of man's nature is wrong -- in the same way that it would be wrong to refer to eagles as terrestrial animals.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/12, 2:31am)


Post 37

Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 4:43amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Supporting taxation" I took to mean that you would vote for it, or you would suggest to people that the government should perform wealth redistribution. Paying taxes is not supporting taxation, it is being a victim of taxation.

=================================

As a side note on the comment that man is productive over the whole, think about this situation:

Bob is incredibly productive, he creates so much food with his farming that he and his sons can feed 1000 people. John is incredibly productive. He is an expert craftsman, and can build 20 houses per year with his sons.

But Bob and John live in a small community, and there aren't so many people to feed nor house. So people have tons of free time, time for R&R, and time for making babies. The population explodes.

200 years pass. Bob's and John's children's children's ... children are pacifists. They've been taught that violence is bad. Violence is bad, even if someone murders your wife. You should just imprison the murderer for a while and then let him go.

Some of Bob & John's lineage are still very productive. They are so productive they can feed & shelter 1000 people. And they do, population has grown to the point where the lineage actually work their asses off, no R&R, little time for making babies. The lineage now has amassed great wealth, and live in luxury.

Yet... the lineage now lives in a society that taxes them. 40% of their income, through various forms of taxes and inflation are taken from them to give to those in need.

Some math... 1000 * 40% = 400 people. Each man, his wife, and their two children in Bob & John's lineage now are forced to provide for 400 people. That's a producer to leech ratio of 4 : 400, 1 : 100.

Such a society has net production yes. But are most of the people productive? No. Most of the people are leeches.

That's just my... example society. But how different is it from our society? Whats the ratio of people who would prefer a miniarchy with free free market to people who would prefer a welfare/military state? I think that in our society, even though humans are net productive, most humans are leeches.

=================================

Ed, when I say a human is leech, I don't mean that a homo sapien has the same genetics, kind of body, etc, as a member of true leeches. What I mean is that for the most part, over a person's life, they gain the resources necessary for life & reproduction by taking (by initiation of force) the resources from others. Just like leeches do. To say "human leech" is a short hand form of that mouth full of a phrase.

=================================

Many times now both of you have agreed that yes, humans do leech. Then to say that leeching is not a part of human's nature is... contradictory. Either humans leech, and hence its a part of their nature, or humans do not leech, and hence it is not a part of their nature. Humans leech. It is a part of their nature.

Cheers,
Dean

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 38

Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

You can't say that something is part of something's nature using simple statistics, numeration, or relative frequency (hypothetico-deductive reasoning). Using the easy Eskimo example, the nature of ice is to not flow like water (as the ice in the story did). That's what makes ice ice (and not simply just another bunch of water) -- that it's hard and doesn't flow. 

This is true even though the ice melted and flowed away on the ground -- right before your very eyes. You cannot just use your eyes to discover what the nature of something is. Let's keep this thing on ice a little longer. If you want to understand the nature of ice, then you have got to find conditions where "ice remains ice", that hard thing that doesn't flow. Finding those conditions -- where ice "functions" -- is part of uncovering that nature. A nature is functional.

Notice the reciprocity here: you cannot understand something's nature without also coming to understand, at the same time, the environment in which it acts. You can say that high temperature is not a "natural environment" for ice, because ice doesn't persist in high temperatures. But you don't do one thing: you don't examine ice at high temperature and then go back and say that the nature of ice is to be liquid, and to flow (even though it has an enviro-specific potential to do just that).

Instead, you utilize the environment in which ice functions as ice, per se -- in order to talk about its nature.

And when we do that kind of thing in biology, not only do we keep in mind the environment, but we go so far as to use the best examples. Genetic mutations may temporarily but persistently create birds with only one wing (birds that were supposed to fly). But it is proper to pay absolutely no attention to that self-evident fact of reality when talking about the nature of that bird. We start with a function (flight; for aerial birds), and then we move our focus toward "best function" -- instead of examining any actual cases of hampered or mitigated function.

You don't say that the nature of a heart is to just sit there (as you would discover if examining only dead bodies). Instead, you look at hearts in instances were hearts are doing a really good job at living up to the function of hearts. With humans, to find their nature, you need to find those who are doing a really good job at living up to their function (which includes examining them for happiness, instead of just vital signs).

And here is the ultimate kicker (hold on to your socks): 

Even if the birds were all on some weird, radioactive island, so that most of them (a statistical majority!) were born with only one wing -- we would still not include that self-evident fact of reality when talking about the nature of that bird.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/12, 1:04pm)


Post 39

Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 2:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed:

You have indeed expressed this with a great deal of clarity. Thank you.

Sam


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.