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Post 20

Friday, June 24, 2011 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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  What's wrong with just allegience or loyalty? link

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Post 21

Friday, June 24, 2011 - 6:12pmSanction this postReply
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I think Ed is right that we should have another word.
- If a person shows allegiance to a belief where the allegiance is based upon faith, it is being dogmatic.
- If a person shows allegiance to a belief where the allegiance is as the result of ignoring evidence to the contrary, then they are being dogmatic.

But if a person shows allegiance to a belief where the belief and the allegiance to the belief are both based upon reason, then it should be called ______________?

This would be a form of integrity - of remaining loyal to reason, and the confidence in reason... but that isn't a single world that would represent allegiance based upon reason. If a person shows allegiance to a belief where the belief is based upon certainty that reason is the right approach, and that reason has been followed, what would be that word?

Is the opposite of "being dogmatic," "being rational"?

Post 22

Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, okay ... I've got one. I want to warn you, though, it's not only not very 'easy on the eyes', it doesn't even roll off of the tongue all that well. A possible word that identifies the diffierentiation between the type of assuredness that Steve described as "dogmatic", and the assuredness afforded by Objectivist epistemology, might be:

ratiodogmatic*

Ed

*And if you don't like the above-coined term, then don't just throw tomatoes at me, come up with a better term.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/25, 1:06pm)


Post 23

Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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Question:
Do students of Objectivism tend to narrow their minds, admitting as meaningful questions, legitimate interpretations, and acceptable patterns of thought only those which they regard as sanctioned by Ayn Rand?
For instance, it's common to ask when time began, and who it was who got bored and got off his butt and finally created the universe ex nihilo, but are these admitted as meaningful questions by Objectivists?

It's common to interpret market monopolies as being things caused by excessive free enterprise along with a lack of government control, but do Objectivists admit that that interpretation is legitimate?

It's common to have patterns of thought that run like this:
That was a rotten thing to do, but it's only human.

Act first, think afterward.

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

I couldn't help it! Nobody can help anything he does

It may have been true yesterday, but it's not true today.

Don't be so sure--nobody can be certain of anything.

It may be true for you, but it's not true for me.

But can't one compromise and borrow different ideas from different philosophies according to the expediency of the moment?

I can't prove it, but I feel that it's true.

It's logical, but logic has nothing to do with reality.

It's evil, because it's selfish.

This may be good in theory, but it doesn't work in practice.
... but do Objectivists admit that these patterns of thought are acceptable?

Ed


Post 24

Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, I think you need to reread your starting question. No items in your list are things "they regard as sanctioned by Ayn Rand."

Post 25

Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 4:24pmSanction this postReply
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The first thing to look at is the difference between the individual and the school of thought. Some individuals are dogmatic about some things because that is the way they think - be they advocates of Objectivism or Chistianity. And, some schools of thought, and related organizations encourage or even require dogmatism from their disciples. Others discourage any dogmatism.

What we can say is that Objectivism as a school of thought does NOT encourage dogmatism and actually damns it explicitly. But some adherents have that personal tendency towards dogmatism - something that is purely their flaw, something they would carry with them into any school of thought they adopted.

There may be some organizations under the Objectivism umbrella that are more encouraging of dogmatism than others, but it is hard to do with Objectivism which just doesn't lend itself to that way of thinking.

Post 26

Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 10:06pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Ed, I think you need to reread your starting question. No items in your list are things "they regard as sanctioned by Ayn Rand."
That was my point. Those things would be regarded by Objectivists as being not sanctioned by Ayn Rand, and this is known by examination of her writings, which directly address all of those very things. The cloudiness of this issue stems from us only having one interpretation or one pattern of thought when it comes to "dogmatism" -- that it always has to be bad:

1) It always has to be bad when you narrow your mind (if you think your guru would sanction it). Wide open minds would be better.

2) It always has to be bad when you don't admit certain questions as meaningful. An endless patience and toleration of all questions, even pointless and arbitrary ones, would be better.

3) It always has to be bad when you don't admit certain interpretations as legitimate. An egalitarian view when it comes to interpretations, treating each one as being just as legitimate as the others, would be better.

4) It always has to be bad when you don't admit certain patterns of thought as acceptable. We need to find thinking patterns, no matter how internally and externally destructive, as acceptable. We need a really big tent which encompasses every view. We need net neutrality. We need communist leaders just as much as we need capitalist ones. When need altruists as bad as we need egoists. Skepticism and mysticism ought to be as accepted by Objectivists as is Objectivism.

In this way, even the critic of dogmatism falls prey to his own critique. On the one hand saying that dogmatism is bad, and on the other hand saying that he is so sure about that judgment, that it ought to be as accepted as dogma. It remains to be established whether the 4 statements above have truth-value, but Toulmin's case -- which calls the disciples' behavior a failure -- rests on them having such truth value.

It's wrong to listen to others (like a disciple would)? Okay, but what if the other person is right? Is it still wrong to listen to them? We have to separate the issues. In the past, the "master" was -- because of always being rooted in some kind of mysticism -- always wrong; and it was wrong to follow him. The counter-example Toulmin gave regarding Newton is an exception that was meant to prove the supposed rule (that disciple-ship is a human failure, but with Newton it worked out well).

When reason enters the picture the dynamics change. Now, instead of listening to a preacher or leader speaking into a dictaphone from a bully pulpit, we have Ayn Rand. It's a whole different ball of wax. What is inculcated into a "disciple" of Objectivism? For a disciple of salvation religions, what it is that is inculcated is a diminished sense of self-competence, but an aggravated sense of believing that the master is always right (so even though you are dumb, you can be certain and right, by merely siding with the master). An Objectivist is as psychologically certain as a zealot, but he got to that certainty using a different method.

But, because disciple-ship has always been about some kind of mysticism (of muscle or spirit), there hasn't ever been a positive case for it. This is why it's cognitively easier to throw the baby out with the bath water, and to just sit there and proclaim that Objectivism isn't something that could ever have disciples. Because, even though it is every bit as discriminatory as the most ruthless of past dogmas, it's discriminatory differently than any past dogma.

Ed

p.s. I get the point that Objectivism becomes (or ought to become), for each Objectivist, an instrument to be used at the behest of one's own mind -- rather than as a replacement for the mind (like religion often becomes).


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Post 27

Monday, June 27, 2011 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
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It can mean 'integrity;' adherence to principles.

A woman adheres to certain dogged principles when she resists an attempted rape. Is she being dogmatic and intransigent when she doesn't compromise with those that merely disagree with her right to say no, or is there a deeper set of principles involved-- ones worth clinging to the bitter end?

Some few might disagree on the rights of others to enslave them, on any basis, no matter how big the meeting was down the street, no matter how many others voted, no matter how many Soc. grad school professors rolled their eyes into the back of their heads and nodded along and said that this was good for some all seeing and yet unseen entity above and beyond all local contingencies...

Is that few being dogmatic and intransigent when they cling to the principle that their lives are not subject to the whims of others down the street, outside of their free association socius?

Those advocating slavery might surely say so.

Those that cling too hard to their freedom are for sure an impediment to those who want to eat that freedom, but that is dogma worth narrowing ones mind to defend, eliminating all the sophist bullshit aimed at justifying slavery.

For sure. Depending on the topic, that intransigence is integrity.


The greatest virtue in the world is not compromise with those who want to rape you, with those who want to enslave you, with those attempting to run your skin to implement their world view for them. They might well see that as dogmatic intransigence to principles.

Well, let them. Their reasoning is transparent and obvious. If you swallow their logic, it saves them the effort of actually beating you over the head, and making their intentions more clear.

Even to them.

regards,
Fred
(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 6/27, 1:26pm)


Post 28

Monday, June 27, 2011 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
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And, make no mistake about it: their agenda becomes slavery the very moment that they advocate that 'ask' becomes 'tell' at the point of a state gun.

Ask is what free men do, as peers. Tell is what slaveholders do to slaves.

Not in any free nation. Is this a free nation?

Politics is 'ask.' Megapolitics is 'tell.' In a free nation, there is no ethical justification for 'tell' and those being told have every ethical right to resist, avoid, and deflect the demand to be told.

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Post 29

Monday, June 27, 2011 - 4:16pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

I still maintain that there are two key elements to "dogmatism" and they go beyond intransigence or integrity (which may or may not be present).

To be dogmatic...
1. The person holds belief(s) based upon something other than reason.
2. The person is unwilling to consider new evidence or arguments that oppose the belief(s).

I am intransigent in defense of my rights, but not dogmatic since I am arguing from reason and in any given discussion I will listen to an argument if I haven't already considered it. This is quite unlike a belief that comes from 'holy scripture' or blind allegiance to some guru or belief based upon mystical revelations.

Integrity is loyalty to principle, and I suppose that while integrity, as such, is always a virtue, it doesn't guarantee that the principle in question is correct, or that it is not based upon something other than reason. A Catholic that refuses to consider an abortion when it would be in her self-interest is exhibiting integrity to a principle that dogmatically held.

Post 30

Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

dogmatism: The tendency to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true, without consideration of evidence or the opinions of others.

intransigence: Refusing to moderate a position, especially an extreme position; uncompromising.

postmodern politics: the characterization of others refusal to agree with your desire to eat them as irrational intransigent dogmatism.


Steve: I think the concept we're looking for is called orthogonality: Orthogonality occurs when two things can vary independently, they are uncorrelated, or they are perpendicular.

dogmatism can be irrational or rational.

intransigence can be irrational or rational.

dogmatism and rationality are said to be orthogonal concepts: they can vary independently of each other, they depend upon the specifics and context.

There are issues which by their nature rationally demand intransigent dogmatism. See 'rape' and 'slavery' examples, and note what the unifying underlying meta-principle is which binds them.

regards,
Fred



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Post 31

Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

You wrote, "There are issues which by their nature rationally demand intransigent dogmatism. See 'rape' and 'slavery' examples, and note what the unifying underlying meta-principle is which binds them."

Strictly speaking, I'd say that no issue can RATIONALLY demand any form of DOGMATISM. This is, of course quibbling since we agreee on the underlying principles.

In your examples, I assume the underlying meta-principle you refer to is that rape and slavery are abrogations of reason, of choice, and that the person cannot act on their own belief. It would make no sense to ask someone to consider "new evidence" or to "reason" on the proposition that they forgo all choice and allow force to decide their fate in favor of rape or slavery.

I disagree that dogmatism can be rational. A person can be dogmatic in defense of a correct principle.... but that is different - it is an accident that they are on the right side of that issue. Dogmatic is a process and can be looked at separate from the content of the moment. To be dogmatic, one has to be intransigent. (I think you'd agree on that - that when one stops being intransigent, that, for the moment at least they are not being dogmatic.) To be rational means that there are some instances where one must put down intransigence and other times where it must be picked up.

Rational is aslo a process and can be viewed separately from its content of the moment. The same content or principle could be defended dogmatically (unthinkingly, irrationally) or rationally.

I am arguing for a definition of dogmatic as that process of supporting or holding to a belief that is intransient and is not based upon reason. When one rules out reason, then it can be a belief that is based upon faith, emotion, blind allegience to the opinions of others, blind allegience to a guru or master, etc.
--------------------------

Your definition of postmodern politics is quote-worthy!

Post 32

Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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As opposed to using the term 'objectivism' - which is often disparaged as being an ideology or dogma - I will use the term "critical rationalism".

When asked what I 'believe-in', I can not otherwise explain my personal ontological/epistemological worldview.

I think think that term comes from the work of Carl Popper.

Post 33

Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Terry,

I think you're right that Karl Popper coined the term: critical rationalism. But I would be wary (read: critical) of Popper's full gamut of philosophical positions. Popper said these things:
There is reality behind the world as it appears to us, possibly a many-layered reality, of which the appearances are the outermost layers. What the great scientist does is boldly to guess, daringly to conjecture, what these inner realities are like. This is akin to myth making.
In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable: and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality.
If realism is true, if we are animals trying to adjust ourselves to our environment, then our knowledge can be only the trial-and-error affair which I have depicted. If realism is true, our belief in the reality of the world, and in physical laws, cannot be demonstrable, or shown to be certain or 'reasonable' by any valid reasoning. In other words, if realism is right, we cannot expect or hope to have more than conjectural knowledge.
What we should do, I suggest, is to give up the idea of ultimate sources of knowledge, and admit that all knowledge is human; that it is mixed with our errors, our prejudices, our dreams, and our hopes; that all we can do is to grope for truth even though it be beyond our reach.
Popper, like John Locke, was terrific on politics (a boon for mankind), but wrong on epistemology (a setback for mankind).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/28, 6:43pm)


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Post 34

Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
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Karl Popper was the professor at the London School of Economics that inspired George Soros to want to abolish nations in favor of an open society.

"His [Soros'] Open Society Institute is named after Popper's two volume work, The Open Society and Its Enemies, and Soros's ongoing philosophical commitment to the principle of fallibilism (that anything he believes may in fact be wrong, and is therefore to be questioned and improved) stems from Popper's philosophy."Wikipedia

Popper was a Marxist who became disillusioned and converted to Social Liberalism. "...in his early years [he was] impressed by communism and also active in the Austrian Communist party." Wikipedia

"Social liberalism is the belief that liberalism should include social justice. It differs from classical liberalism in that it believes it to be a legitimate role of the state to address economic and social issues such as unemployment, health care, and education while simultaneously expanding civil rights." Wikipedia

Post 35

Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Thanks for the correction.

:-)


Terry, let me rephrase what I said earlier:

Popper wasn't a very good thinker with regard to either epistemology OR politics.

:-)

Ed


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