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Monday, March 12, 2012 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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Interesting article -- argues that an objective set of laws is impossible, and argues against the notion that a minarchic monopoly of law is the most desirable possible system.
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 3/12, 3:47pm)


Post 1

Monday, March 12, 2012 - 6:11pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for posting the quote, Jim.

The problem I have with this article by John Hasnas is that he accepts instances of positive law as being tokens of law in general -- without recognizing the distinction between positive law and natural law. Positive law is penned by legislatures, but it can either integrate or fail to integrate with natural law. This is the cardinal thinking mistake of a pragmatist:

1) look at things that are around you
2) assume that the precise way that those things are -- as you perceive them fully and concretely -- is the only way that they must always be (take them as irreducible primaries).
3) proceed from these unquestioned, unqualified perceptions by taking baby steps from them with an unscrupulous, unbending logic

One of the negative outcomes of taking positive law to be the only kind of law (that there is) would be to reduce individual rights down from a position of being absolute, to one of being contractarian (hinging on the actors knowledge of them and mutual, personal agreement with them).

Ed


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Post 2

Monday, March 12, 2012 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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I wasn't that impressed with the quote.

"The public's identification of order with law makes it impossible for the public to ask for one without asking for the other."

Not true. People ask for many things. Haven't we all heard people ask for others to behave better? Many people are asking for fewer rules and regulations. Many people are asking for the 'good old days' when people were more civil, etc. There are many people who see 'order' as arising from what one has been taught, or as a factor relating to culture... by many different things. And further, to jump from saying that order is identified with law, to saying that it can not be otherwise just plain wasn't demonstrated.
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He goes on to say, "There is clearly a public demand for an orderly society. One of human beings' most fundamental desires is for a peaceful existence secure from violence. But because the public has been conditioned to express its desire for order as one for law, all calls for a more orderly society are interpreted as calls for more law."

Again, not true. He associates "order" with "peaceful existence secure from violence" which doesn't require MORE laws, it actually requires FEWER laws (getting rid of those laws that have government violating people's rights).
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The quote goes on to say, "And since under our current political system, all law is supplied by the state, all such calls are interpreted as calls for a more active and powerful state."

That is equivalent to saying, "People want things to be better therefore the government will grow bigger" as if that were a natural law, as if there were no other possibility. It's a false argument because people can argue, as Objectivists do, for only those government provided laws that match most closely to natural laws (individual rights).
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"The identification of order with law eliminates from public consciousness the very concept of the decentralized provision of order."

Here he makes a sneaky shift. He talked about "order" as "a peaceful existence secure from violence" but then he implies that one could have a "market-generated, spontaneous order." But if you don't have laws that outlaw the initiation of violence, then you don't have market-based solutions. Free markets presuppose free-to-choose environments - environments where initiation of force is outlawed.

Then he implies that this is a conspiracy where words are "redefined render certain thoughts unthinkable."
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As to the rest of the article... I see it as just more anarchist twaddle and devoid of clear thinking.

Post 3

Monday, March 12, 2012 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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Here's Mortimer Adler on natural and positive law (from Adler's Philosophical Dictionary; under the entry for "Law"):
The thing that connects the Constitution of the United States to the human-made laws of the federal government and of the fifty state jurisdictions is the natural law. Religious persons believe that the natural law is instilled in our minds and hearts by God, but even atheists can appeal to natural law as the law of reason concerning what ought and ought not be sought and what ought and ought not be done.

It is the law of reason that proclaims our natural rights. Natural rights are the same at all times and places, but in the course of history there has been a growing recognition of such rights.

Chattel slavery was always a violation of man's natural right to liberty, but this natural right was not always recognized by most countries, and it is still far from being universally observed.
So man-made laws can either be aligned with natural law, or run roughshod against it (e.g., Islamic "Sharia law") by explicitly violating, or by implicitly allowing for the violation of, some individuals' rights. Now, a contractarian law theorist presented with the existence of Sharia law would have to try to explain it away by saying:
Those women in those Muslim countries signed a "social contract" which allows for the men to perpetually treat them in that way (i.e., a way in which we, in the West, might call a violation of individual rights). They may not have explicitly signed a piece of paper, but they implicitly "sign" it by not attempting to escape from their country or from their "rights-violating" husbands.
Bullshit.

  
Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/12, 9:55pm)


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Monday, March 12, 2012 - 10:40pmSanction this postReply
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Biggg bigg bullshit, it is pretty hard to escape when the whole regime treats women as little more than property. How would she even buy herself a plane ticket when she has no money and needs permission to even be out in public...

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 8:47amSanction this postReply
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Ed -- thanks for your perceptive comments.

re this: "This is the cardinal thinking mistake of a pragmatist:

1) look at things that are around you
2) assume that the precise way that those things are -- as you perceive them fully and concretely -- is the only way that they must always be (take them as irreducible primaries).
3) proceed from these unquestioned, unqualified perceptions by taking baby steps from them with an unscrupulous, unbending logic"

You seem to be agreeing with the author here -- he seems to be making essentially this same point in the article here:

"But how can it possibly provide the order-generating and maintaining processes necessary for the peaceful coexistence of human beings in society? What would a free market in legal services be like?

I am always tempted to give the honest and accurate response to this challenge, which is that to ask the question is to miss the point. If human beings had the wisdom and knowledge-generating capacity to be able to describe how a free market would work, that would be the strongest possible argument for central planning. One advocates a free market not because of some moral imprimatur written across the heavens, but because it is impossible for human beings to amass the knowledge of local conditions and the predictive capacity necessary to effectively organize economic relationships among millions of individuals. It is possible to describe what a free market in shoes would be like because we have one. But such a description is merely an observation of the current state of a functioning market, not a projection of how human beings would organize themselves to supply a currently non-marketed good. To demand that an advocate of free market law (or Socrates of Monosizea, for that matter) describe in advance how markets would supply legal services (or shoes) is to issue an impossible challenge. Further, for an advocate of free market law (or Socrates) to even accept this challenge would be to engage in self-defeating activity since the more successfully he or she could describe how the law (or shoe) market would function, the more he or she would prove that it could be run by state planners. Free markets supply human wants better than state monopolies precisely because they allow an unlimited number of suppliers to attempt to do so. By patronizing those who most effectively meet their particular needs and causing those who do not to fail, consumers determine the optimal method of supply. If it were possible to specify in advance what the outcome of this process of selection would be, there would be no need for the process itself."

That is, he seems to be saying that people are falling into this pragmatic trap of trying to take baby steps away from the current system of government-generated law, law that is mostly not based on natural law, when such baby steps are not particularly feasible because of the fundamental structure of a non-market based monopoly of law where people are not allowed to choose between alternatives and purchase the code of laws that corresponds to their understanding of natural / objective law.

He seems to be saying that the current system of monopoly law means that others, who are overwhelmingly not Objectivists, will get to choose the code of law you must live under, and that you can't outvote them. The consequence is that you and I will invariably not get the natural / objective laws we want because we are outnumbered by the statists. Under a market system, it wouldn't matter that not many people are Objectivists, we will still get to purchase an Objectivist code of laws, just as it does not matter that hardly anyone chooses to purchase a Toyota Avalon -- I still got to purchase the Avalon that I now drive because under a marketplace system, I got the sole vote on what car I drive. No one else got to make that choice for me.




Post 6

Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 5:37pmSanction this postReply
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What would a free market in legal services look like?

It is my belief that in a free market those law firms that understood the application of the rule of law and had the best track record would be of most value for it's customers just like any other free market business the company with the best product and creates the best value for value wins.

Post 7

Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,
That is, he seems to be saying that people are falling into this pragmatic trap of trying to take baby steps away from the current system of government-generated law, law that is mostly not based on natural law, when such baby steps are not particularly feasible because of the fundamental structure of a non-market based monopoly of law where people are not allowed to choose between alternatives and purchase the code of laws that corresponds to their understanding of natural / objective law.
I agree that Hasnas is characterizing folks as pragmatists, taking what they see in front of them as a given -- but that's likely just a "Plato's cave" dynamic. Folks who have limited understanding, when talking about other folks, talk about those other folks as if they had limited understanding, too. In the story of Plato's cave (it has a formal name, but I can't remember it at the moment), the guy who escaped and returned tried to tell every in the cave that the shadows on the cave wall correspond to wonderful, colorful entities that populate the earth outside of the mouth of the cave.

They would not listen. For them, only the shadows had reality, and someone seeing farther or deeper than that -- was obviously just delusional. The cave dwellers might even take pride in telling you that only the shadows exist, and that every reasonable person should give their assent to the fact that only the shadows exist. So what I am saying is that of course Hasnas thinks regular folks think like a pragmatist because -- for him -- everybody does.

:-)

Ed


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Post 8

Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,
He seems to be saying that the current system of monopoly law means that others, who are overwhelmingly not Objectivists, will get to choose the code of law you must live under, and that you can't outvote them.
Okay, but this reasoning presumes that law is something that people should get to vote on. An extreme example of that would be if late-1930s Germans got to take a vote about how the German Jews should be treated. It's a totally democratic view of law. What is missed in the example is the enterprise of jurisprudence -- i.e., looking at law logically. In your example, your own feeling would get to dictate what kind of law you live under (or force others to live under).

Under a market system, it wouldn't matter that not many people are Objectivists, we will still get to purchase an Objectivist code of laws ...
But at what price? The price of warfare with competing private defense providers? Are those the only 2 outcomes possible (e.g., mob democracy vs. purchasing legislature)? This is the question not answered by Hasnas.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/13, 6:31pm)


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