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Saturday, December 22, 2012 - 1:32pmSanction this postReply
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This is a string of excerpts I pulled from Chapter 3 of his book: Planning for Freedom: Let the market system work

Ed


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Post 1

Saturday, December 22, 2012 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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Meanwhile, our current government is ensuring that even future generations will have no capital to invest - we've borrowed and eaten our children's seed corn.

Post 2

Sunday, December 23, 2012 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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Good point, Steve.

In order for us to be saved from this culturo-political mess, we have to spread the word about a new limit on political tolerance. We can call it the LvM principle of good human government:
[I]t is one of the foremost tasks of good government to remove all obstacles that hinder the accumulation and investment of new capital.
Put that up on banners on the tallest skyscrapers. Pull that as a banner behind planes flying by. Hack into those huge l.e.d. displays in New York, London, and Tokyo -- and run this phrase in an endless loop! Oh yeah, and tell people about Objectivism while you are at it.

:-)

Ed


Post 3

Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Alright, I'm getting overwhelmed by this relatively-small Ludwig von Mises book. There is just too much truth in it -- too much which could be used for the betterment of man living on earth. There is only so much good that a man can take at any one time. I can't imagine what would happen to me if I ever decided to read the magnum opus: Human Action! It is likely that my head would explode. I'm only up to page 92 of PfF, but here are a couple more gems which it is proving difficult for me to remain quiet about:
At the present juncture the unions try to take up the old, a hundred times refuted purchasing power fable. They declare that putting more money into the hands of the wage earners--by raising wage rates, by increasing the benefits to the unemployed and embarking upon new public works--would enable the workers to spend more and thereby stimulate business and lead the economy out of the recession into prosperity.
For those who pay attention to what's currently reported in the popular press, do these words from a half-century ago sound familiar?

:-)

All this well-being is conditioned by the increase in savings and capital accumulated; without these funds that enable business to make practical use of scientific and technological progress the American worker would not produce more and better things per hour of work ... would not earn more and would ... wretchedly live on the verge of starvation. All measures which--like our income and corporation tax system--aim at preventing further capital accumulation or even at capital decumulation are therefore virtually anti-labor and anti-social.
$64,000 question: How many new measures have recently cropped up, or how large of measures have been undertaken or are being drawn up, which work to prevent further capital accumulation in this country?

The irony of socialism is that it is virtually anti-social! It is a professed love for some kind of universal security which, in reality, works to destroy all of our means of human security. The only rationalization for professing something like that is Machiavellian: If you intend to be the dictator, or to be in another position where you don't have to earn any values, you will try to dupe people into believing in socialism. Otherwise, there is no soundness in it.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/30, 4:14pm)


Post 4

Monday, December 31, 2012 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Read these words from 1948 (p108), and tell me if they remind you of anything you are currently witnessing on display in this country:
Keynes's General Theory of 1936 did not inaugurate a new age of economics policies; rather, it marked the end of a period. ... Even the most fanatical Keynesians do not dare say that present-day England's distress is an effect of too much saving and insufficient spending. The essence of the much glorified "progressive" economic policies of the last decades was to expropriate ever-increasing parts of the higher incomes and to employ the funds thus raised for financing public waste and for subsidizing the members of the most powerful pressure groups. In the eyes of the "unorthodox," every kind of policy, however manifest its inadequacy may have been, was justified as a means of bringing about more equality. ... Even the confiscation of every penny earned above 1,000 pounds a year will not provide any perceptible increase to Great Britain's public revenue. The most bigoted Fabians cannot fail to realize that henceforth funds for public spending must be taken from the same people who are supposed to profit from it.
Sound familiar?

:-)

Ed


Post 5

Monday, December 31, 2012 - 10:11pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, geez, I just finished this book and there were a million more quotes I wanted to add -- even more relevant to our predicament today than those found above (if you can believe that)! I'm pretty sure that if I add much more here -- beyond what is added in the footnote below -- that I'll become guilty of copyright infringement or something. Imagine that: Infringing on the rights of one of the world's greatest-ever capitalists? Ugh. That reminds me of the time I almost ran over Ron Paul. Talk about having a sick feeling in your stomach!

:-)

Oh my gosh, what a wonderful book this is. Imagine getting overheated and dehydrated in a desert with a single spring of water bubbling up nearby, but with some kind of situational predicament -- perhaps, say, it is surrounded by ominous cacti with literally no way to reach the water -- imagine your surprised delight in such a predicament should you find on the ground a straw which could be pressed through the thorns of the cacti and which allows you to reach the bubbling up water. That is the feeling I had while reading this book. Man, oh man, I wish I could write such a valuable book which was 172 pages long, but which only had one single thinking error in it!*

Ed

*Mises' single error -- as far as I'm concerned -- is in the last section, inside the 1951 paper prepared for the Mont Pelerin Society. In my opinion, it in no way detracts from any of the major points and contributions of the book. The error involves valuation standards, whether you can have them or not, whether they are subjective or objective. Here is a string of sentences from that paper, all of which cannot be true at the same time and in the same respect (note some of these involve a change of context between market and government arenas; which may allow for an apparent contradiction to be, actually, legitimate):

1) People often err very lamentably in estimating the work of the creative genius.
2) Only a minority of men are appreciative enough to attach the right value to the achievement of poets, artists, and thinkers.
3) But judgments of value are necessarily always personal and subjective.
4) Nobody is called upon to determine what could make another man happy or less unhappy.
5) In ... penalizing the efficient entrepreneurs ..., people are injuring themselves.
6) There is no use in arguing about the adequacy of ethical percepts. They are derived from intuition; they are arbitrary and subjective.
7) There is no objective standard available with regard to which they could be judged.
8) Ultimate ends ... cannot be determined by scientific inquiry and logical reasoning.
9) It is to the foremost material interest of everybody that ...
10) Sedulousness and skill are spent in vain if they are not directed to the most important goal by the entrepreneur's foresight ...
11) ... the only thing that matters is whether or not the program concerned is fit to attain the ends sought.
12) Nobody ever wants to fail. It is the very essence of human nature that man consciously aims at substituting a ...
13) Mankind ought to be grateful to those exceptional men who ...
14) In complying with the moral law man ... curbs some of his own instinctive urges, appetites and greed, that is his short-run concerns, in order to serve best his own--rightly understood or long-run--interests.
15) What is an indispensable means to intensify social cooperation and to make it possible for people to survive and to enjoy a higher standard of living is morally good and socially desirable.


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Post 6

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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Ed:

Please bear with me. It isn't always obvious, but I have a point.

I have a bias, but I think too few of us have ever actually studied thermodynamics.

The rules of the universe are rigged; the neighborhood we find ourselves living in is one which is proceeding from maximum gradient to minimum gradient. We can expend energy, and we can transform energy, but at a cost, and that is, at the cost of reducing the total amount of available 'usable' energy. However, due to newly created information in the Universe, intelligent re-arrangements of the local gradients, we can extend the graspable amounts of yet available energy and extend our local event horizons from centuries to eaons. Still ultimately finite-- we can't ultimately cheat the rules of the universe-- but so vast in terms of human lifetimes as to seem almost infinite.

The relationship of this to our economies is as follows: capital has an opportunity cost associated with it. We can spend it on consumer goods -- a new iPad-- or we can spend it on the capital or human capital necessary to create the next iPad.

But that spending is not equivalent in terms of its long term effects on our economies. It is also not equivalent in its requirements to be effective.

One is a bridge to the future, one is not.

Spending on consumer goods is an entirely downhill effort. As in, devoid of any human effort whatsoever. It is the opposite of effort, it is beyond effortless. It is complete in its effect simply by its enactment, requiring no additional human effort. A child can do it.

Spending on capital and human capital is not sufficient, nor complete. What yet remains to make such spending effective is the actual human effort to run uphill. To intelligently manage risk. To choose where to fish today. To not only take on risk but to make an effort to create something new. To extend our event horizon.

There is no incentive required to effect consumer spending; it literally runs downhill on its own, fueled by boundless human desire.

There is incentive required to run uphill. To take on risk. To make the effort.

For example, I can pay for someone's four years of college. I can't pay for their education. They must take it, even if at no cost to them.

Economists believe that we can drive economies by running them only downhill. By 'priming the pump.' But anyone who actually ever primed a pump knows that priming the pump is not sufficient; the pump must be pumped, and that requires human effort. It is as if economists believe that economies can be 'pumped' exclusively by priming them...and that defect is their widespread ignorance of thermodynamics. They have no business using pump analogies if they don't understand the rules. It's as if they think they can *construct* a cherry picked universe in which their models of reality function. They cannot. Those economies exist in the same universe as those pumps, as do we all.

All of the above, IMO, is thermodynamics exerting its universal truths into our economies, which exist without any widespread knowledge of the rules governing them...

So capital is not just money. Capital is the potential to create new value in the world. The act of running downhill -- consumer spending -- does not create new value in the world. Consumer spending is an effect, not a cause. New value in the world is eked out from this universe running mostly downhill only via new information -- new effort -- created by human beings. Otherwise, we are trying to be hunter/gatherers, and at seven billion and counting, we are way beyond that possibility.

Most of the world is suffering in abject poverty precisely because of a failure to realize that. And America is well on its way down that path, but from a great height. We rose out of the muck for a brief moment in history, and yet, the tribe is calling us back to the jungle.

Attempts to drive economies primarily via spending is nothing more than carving carcass; it is not growing beast. We borrow breath, blow it into the beast's lungs. The beast inhales, and then exhales, but does not make the effort to breath on its own. We ignore the incentive to make the effort to breath on its own at our peril.

Capital has an opportunity cost. It is not simply 'money.'

To parasites, there is no difference. And the parasites are currently winning. Capital ... money ... even, money that doesn't exist yet... all the same to a parasite concerned only with keeping the gig alive for the next 15 minutes.

Raise the debt ceiling with a pen. This America accepts that.

regards,
Fred

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Post 7

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

I sanctioned your post above because I delight in those efforts to bridge different disciplines by finding a more fundamental abstraction common to both. And I find my self wanting to agree with your parallels between economic activity and physical events/states subsumed under the law of thermodynamics... But, I have to remain an atheist where I can't find satisfactory evidence.

My problem here is that we know that thermodynamics applies to matter and energy - these are both physical things measurable for a given context. And humans are made of matter and do exhibit measurable physical/chemical energy. But crucial to understanding economic activity is the fact that individuals each make choices (and hold values) and this would seem to invalidate your bridge between the disciplines. Can the essence of one choice versus another be separated from any caloric difference such that the choice - as such - becomes a property subject to the discipline of physics? Maintaining context here would require applying a set of principles only those instances of reality that the principles are valid for. Have the laws of physics been abstracted such that they are appropriate to measure choices?

We have both seen the intellectual disasters that arise when academics decide to apply physics to human behavior, not in the physical realm like medicine, biochemistry, sports physics, etc., but in the social/economic/political/psychological realms which are based upon not just on our volitional nature but it's application - on the actual choices made.

Modern thermodynamics is Greek to me. So, you'll have to show me where the bridge exists that is more than a metaphor. If it is just a remarkably potent metaphor to help us work with the differences between consumption spending and capital investment, then I'm okay with that. If it is both a potent metaphor and a fascinating, but accidental parallel between the laws of economics and the laws of physics, then I'm okay with that. If, on the other hand you maintain that thermodynamics applies to economic choices, I'm not seeing how that is happening. (But given my ignorance in the area of thermodynamic, that might not be terribly significant :-)

Yours Truly,
Wet Blanket

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Post 8

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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Wet Blanket,

:-)

Perhaps a third-party can bridge the conceptual gap between you and the esoteric Fred. I nominate myself for the task partly because I have at least a minimal background in both natural and social science. A primary concept of physics is entropy: in a closed system, ordered states devolve into disordered states. If the universe was a pyramid of dominoes, all ordered and fancy, and time passes (which implies motion), then natural forces dictate that the pyramid structure can only fall apart. Potential energy is progressively altered into other forms, such as the kinetic energy of a falling domino. That's the material universe. However, inside the material universe there is this thing called: life -- something which involves a spatio-temporal reversal of the status quo of decay.

Life is something that can begin simple and then become complex, it routinely involves not just spatial growth but advancing intricacy. When Fred says capital has an opportunity cost and that part of that cost is risk, he implicitly forms the bridge between man and the universe. But what was implied by that -- but accidentally not specified by him at that time -- is man's willful utilization of rationality, the ingredient which allows men to plan for a future. Here is the thought process of a man sitting on a stump:

I could just sit here, there is very little risk in that.
But there is very little reward in that.
I have big dreams and the capability of creating them.
I am about to stand up and engage in some kind of a gamble by interacting with the world in a manner that might ultimately be more fulfilling to me.

That's the guy with his head on straight. The others just sit on the stump in fear. As Fred says, if you sit on the stump your whole life, you have nothing to expect but decay. Alternatively, if you chase after values, you may bump your knee or fall in a hole (there is risk) -- but you will feel fit for existence because you are using both your heart and your mind appropriately (there is reward).

How was that, Fred? Did I miss anything? Did I include too much?

:-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/01, 2:02pm)


Post 9

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 - 3:59pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

I am not the Emperor of Enough, but I thought that was pretty good.

I think there is a kind of magic implied when we try to separate Mankind from the cold laws of the Universe.

I mean, sure; Mankind -- as men, as a very large set of possibilities -could- think our way to the top of every hill imaginable.

And in fact, all of the O2 molecules currently in the room you are in -could- suddenly migrate to occupy a 3mm layer next to the ceiling. After all, someone wins the lottery every day.

Or, under no influence other than chance, it is in theory possible for all of the high energy molecules in the room to segregate on the left side, and all of the low energy molecules in the room to segregate on the right side.

But if we compute the probabilities of that happening, we might have to wait for a length of time that is several orders of magnitude longer than the estimated age of the universe. And so, we don't consider it as actually being possible; such ordered arrangements need 'help'...and the rules of the universe enforce a payment that such help creates net additional disorder in the universe in order to achieve such local ordering.

So, to economies; mankind values ordered arrangements over random arrangements. Why is that? Maybe there is a deep philosophical reason, or maybe the reason is more fundamental. Because it is easy to create disorder from order; the universe will do that for us, without any assistance. But not so order; order in the universe is inevitably decreasing over time(starting from a singularity, a boundary condition of maximum order.) It requires focused efficient effort to create additional local order-- to run the universe locally uphill.

The cost of ordered arrangements? Additional disorder elsewhere in the universe. Warm from hot and cold. Gray from black and white. Purely reversible actions are few and far between and largely imagined theoreticals.

Especially with mankind in total. It is one thing to consider the potential genius of some men; it is another think to ponder the potential genius of all of mankind. There are instances of the former all the time, while the latter is as likely to occur as all of those O2 molecules aligning in that 3mm layer next to the ceiling. The dice say, never going to happen. No magic.

Capital is a kind of ordered value; its expenditure has an opportunity cost, which is both the disorder that resulted from its creation, coupled with the potential loss of additional order/value that it has the ability to imperfectly -- that is, at some realizable human efficiency to achieve -- create in the future.

We get off our stump and choose to go fishing. Even the most brilliant fisherman in the world is not guaranteed a successful outing every day. His efficiency at converting present value into future value is not guaranteed. Sometimes ROI is negative, even for the best imaginable. He must achieve that alchemy often enough to survive. He automatically has incentive to subject present value to total loss, and that is, his long term survival.

We can't stand still; the universe has arranged things such that present value deteriorates, even when standing still. So even sitting on our stump and staying out of the game does not preserve present value, much less, provide consumable value. We must manage risk and win often enough to succeed over the long term. And, that is simply to survive, much less, prevail.

As our economies get more complex, we can try to finesse this by shedding risk onto others, but we can't eliminate the universe's cold rules. And, that is exactly what our economies have become, a massive shedding of risk and an attempt to finesse incentives in order to drive economies, which really means, cajoling enough of humanity to make the effort to run uphill.

Thermodynamics does have something to say about order from disorder in the universe; the only real stretch here is, is order valued in our economies?

regards,
Fred




Post 10

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 - 7:06pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,
I think there is a kind of magic implied when we try to separate Mankind from the cold laws of the Universe.
I know what you mean... and I shrink from that myself. We are of the universe and not something magical or mystical or outside of it. Our matter and our physical and chemical energy are subject to the same laws as all other matter. But a set of laws that, for example, describe chemical structures and reactions isn't suitable to analyzing why Joe chose to become a plumber instead of a carpenter. There is a base context for all sets of laws we have discovered.

And I understand viewing physically possible occurrences through the lens of probabilities. All of the molecules of water in glass could, in their random movements, go up at the same instance of time. It would certainly be startling for the fellow holding the glass to have the water 'jump' out, but we don't need to worry about something with that extraordinarily low chance of occurrence - as you said, "...a length of time that is several orders of magnitude longer than the estimated age of the universe."
--------------

The cost of ordered arrangements? Additional disorder elsewhere in the universe.
Here is where I start getting lost again. I am ordering the arrangements of the words on this message - but I'm not aware of any greater disorder in a physical or mental universe than if I were to be typing unordered words of the same quantity. I'm still not seeing choice as falling under thermodynamics.
----------------

Capital is a kind of ordered value; its expenditure has an opportunity cost, which is both the disorder that resulted from its creation, coupled with the potential loss of additional order/value that it has the ability to imperfectly -- that is, at some realizable human efficiency to achieve -- create in the future.
I understand and agree that capital is a kind of ordered value - this is by definition. And it certainly has an opportunity cost - if by that we mean that capital acquisition was the product of a specific effort and a specific set of choices that occurred in place of other efforts or choices that could have been made. Say I invest a few hours of my time in study and a sum of money in, for example, shares of ETF of some commodity. We can see the accounting costs (the transaction cost, and the value assigned to my time). I don't see how to understand my example so that I can concretize the "potential loss of additional order/value" that you would see created during the investment and in the future from the creation of the investment. They remain, for me, just the things not done and I can't see how any of the laws of thermodynamics could be applied.
------------------

...the universe has arranged things such that present value deteriorates...
Actually present value is present value. What happens is that a value in the future is not a value in the present. They are different animals due to the factor of time. I'm not sure how that is an example of thermodynamics. Risk over time doesn't necessarily translate into a form of entropy - the equations wouldn't be the same. Doesn't this remain no more than a pleasing metaphor?
-------------------

...our economies have become, a massive shedding of risk and an attempt to finesse incentives in order to drive economies, which really means, cajoling enough of humanity to make the effort to run uphill.
I'd say that people have made up pseudo-economic laws that are really just attempts to fool people into thinking they should go along with forced associations (taxation, government borrowing, inflating the currency, etc.) It is a political manipulation to allow cronys to shed risk onto citizens, and politicians to shed risk of failed policies onto anyone else.
---------------------

Thermodynamics does have something to say about order from disorder in the universe; the only real stretch here is, is order valued in our economies?
I'm still stuck where I was in the beginning - which is seeing entropy as relating to measurements of aspects of a physical universe. And, as a set of laws that aren't intended to measure the order of a thought or the effort of a choice. Can an economy value anything... other than through the aggregate choices of the buyers and sellers?
----------------------

Fred, don't feel obligated to explain further if you think I'm just not getting it. I can see that one could open up an area of "Economic Thermodynamics: The measurement of costs related to the aggregate of choices being made in a market as a function of the degree of changes in order or disorder"(?) And there is a kind of thermodynamics of psychology, but it isn't the same. They are more statements of how the basic laws of economics (or psychology) will have a kind of balance when they are correct.

I'm still stuck on the concept that fields of thought where all content is based upon people choosing, will not be a field of thought whose subjects matter is DIRECTLY amendable to existing thermodynamic laws that deal with physical matter. Apples and oranges.
------------------------

Now, I will admit to a kind of fantasy where I imagine that human intellectual efforts when they rise to some great enough level of efficiency and quantity, will somehow balance out the entropy of the universe --- or maybe just cause it diminish to such a rate that the universe will not totally run down till a period that is, oh, say approaching infinity. But that is just a fantasy because it doesn't have a link between choice and the physical universe covered by thermodynamics.

Post 11

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

In a purely intellectual subset of the universe, the things we value are (nearly) massless. An example is exactly the order of the words in these sentences.

In that realm, sure enough, it seems we have a kind of freedom independent of the harsh rules of a physical universe. But even in these seemingly massless, energyless subdomains, there are costs and constraints. I'm not talking about the man as machine requirements to fuel our brains and thoughts, but rather, the opportunity costs that hurling these words in this ordering represent; they have come at the direct expense of utilizing that last bit of time and energy to utter other words, never to be recovered. A purely irreversible process, subject to efficiencies, just like physical processes...

But the fact is, the actors in real economies -- us -- value far more than purely intellectual ordering of words.

We humans tend to also value actual, physical things, ordered from the universe using mass and available energy and our motes of heat and light...

And so, our actual economies are subject to those physical laws, in addition to the also not uniformly reversible choices made by myriads of humans acting imperfectly, who do not all rationally align in a well ordered 3MM thick layer, just like the O2 molecules in the rooms we are in...

It may be an incomplete metaphor, but even purely intellectual efforts are subject to the consequences of irreversibility; we cannot re-use the 5 minutes just spent pondering this. It and all similar purely intellectual exertions came at the expense of other opportunities.

We can procrastinate, and push off other opportunities for 'later'...but we cannot live forever, and no matter what finite fractions of our limited motes of heat and light we consume, we can only consume them once, irreversibly.

regards,
Fred



Post 12

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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STeve:

And by all that, I meant "IMO."


Because someone could someday prove all that wrong; for example, symmetries in some quantum models suggest there is nothing inherently unique about the apparent vector of time; those model equations, at least, appear to also work in reverse.

So my claim that our intellectual choices are 'irreversible' because of a universal temporal constraint is my empirical belief. (I don't mean that we can't 'change our mind.' I mean, we can irreversibly spend time forming one opinion, and then later, irreversibly spend time forming an opposite opinion, and both represent irreversible choices; we've lost the opportunity to consider other things with those motes of heat and light and time, they've been irreversibly consumed, and so, that process is subject to efficiencies and irreversibility.

We can imagine a world where that is not the case, but that is not the same as living in that world.

Said another way, I'm not holding my breath waiting for someone to demonstrate that time is not a vector pointing only in one direction.

regards,
Fred

Post 13

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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Might I propose another possibility: that some who claim that government spending & money printing is "good" for the economy, they don't think its good for everyone. Some recognize (but don't care) that they are stealing wealth from others, which harms others. They don't care that overall human productivity will go down, because they expect no matter how low productivity gets, they will always be able to steal more... or begin working themselves if it gets bad enough.

But for so long as fools and slaves are paying them taxes (without retribution) and accepting their fiat (in exchange for products & services), they will take advantage.

Some may understand and internally agree with austrian economics (it is self consistent logic, hence any logical person would agree), yet in their conversation and in the media communicate keynesian ideas in order to enslave the masses of fools who accept ideas by authority rather than think for themselves. I would guess this is the primary function of the federal reserve chairman.

Post 14

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

I think we are mostly on the same page with this... maybe I see it as just a little more metaphor and a little less actual. I certainly agree with time being a one-way vector and that we do have costs and constraints governing our intellectual world even if the laws of thermodynamics don't literally apply.

Where you said, "...our actual economies are subject to those physical laws...", I'd have said, "entities composed of matter and physical energy that are subject to economic laws, are also subject to physical laws." That's me separating the context used to determine which set of laws to apply to an entity. E.g., am I looking at the apple's economic properties, or it's physical properties?

Enough of my pickiness. Thanks for your patience.

Post 15

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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Ed and Steve:

I'm going to be offline for a while; an unexpected Perfect Storm, a combination of end-of-year-bookitis and some clients with panic rush jobs, one that got rescheduled on top of another. (My little part of the universe enforcing its random chaos on me, requiring me to marshall hitherto unplanned exertion of energies in the least efficient manner possible...)

My chair will still be pulled up, however, I will just finally shut up for a while, by necessity...

regards,
Fred


Post 16

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

I am done with the questions I had. But I wish you well with your year-end chaos, and look forward to your return.

Steve

Post 17

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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I echo that, Fred.

Ed


Post 18

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 - 3:59pmSanction this postReply
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Nothing like a little chaos to stir things up Fred!
I look forward to your return.

Happy new year everyone!

Post 19

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Happy New Year, Jules!

I guessed it first, but then I just had to check to see if it was indeed true. Lo' and behold: According to the Chinese, it is the Year of the Snake.

How's that for a coincidence?

:-)

Ed


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