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Post 20

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 1:34pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

>From what I know of the Southern States, demanding an apology from someone who fancies himself a "Southern Gentleman" makes it certain that you will never get one. On the other hand, if you do not demand an apology but just let him learn, an apology would have been forthcoming as soon as he realized he had been ungentlemanly in public.


LOL. I'd never thought of it like that before, but that sounds just about right! You know more about the South than you have previously let on!

-Bill
(Lifelong Southerner, from an old Southern family.)

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Post 21

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 11:42pmSanction this postReply
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The position of SOLO Romance Leader is no longer vacant. Katdaddy has stepped up. Who better??!! Guess there'll be a *lot* of puuuuuuurrrrrrrrring going on in that thar Kitchen! :-)

Linz

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Post 22

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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Great! Kat, you've been wonderful.

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Post 23

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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(buttons popping off my shirt from being puffed up so proudly and right paw... er hand raised in a fist)

Kitten power!

Michael


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Post 24

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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Thanks everyone.  Just figured I may as well make it official since I've been kinda hanging round the kitchen anyway.  I want to give Joe a special thanks for the extended profile function, which will help in the romance department  Hurry up people, fill in those profiles quickly before someone decides they want to charge for the dating service here.   I got mine, now everyone to the kitchen to get yours too. 

Let the fireworks begin...

(kitten jumps up on Colonels shoulder and licks his face, then leads him to the kitchen for a *bonk*)


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Post 25

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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Last post plus one.

I stopped posting on SOLO because of Linz's posts 6 and 8 on this thread. I now realize that what Linz has created here on SOLO is much too important to abandon because Linz will be Linz and make these kind of remarks whenever he gets his dander up. Well, go get your dander up Linz, that's just you; I won't abandon this most valuable forum by confusing you with it per se. Also, you make a lot of good posts too. But just for the record YOU PISS ME OFF A LOT!

--Brant


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Post 26

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 11:44pmSanction this postReply
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Brant - as it happens, it fell to me to pass the above through the moderator's queue.

I love you too. :-)

Linz

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Post 27

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 11:49pmSanction this postReply
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LOLOLOLOL...

(tears streaming down...)

Welcome back Brant. It's good to see ya'. Sorry I'm laughing... I mean it.

//;-)

Michael


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Post 28

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 12:08amSanction this postReply
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Glad to see you back too, Brant. I strongly hope others who have turned to lurker mode over the recent brouhahas follow your lead. And yes, many people have been pissed off by the recent developments, me included.

Please edit your "last" and "second to last" posts before it confuses people.

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Post 29

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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Brant,

I'm also glad that you're back.

Ed

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Post 30

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, I can’t keep silent any longer. Normally, I would have written this to you privately, but since you are not concerned with protecting people from your attacks by at least dealing with them in private correspondence, and since I have exhausted my futile efforts to convince you privately – in correspondence and in person – that insulting and denouncing good and decent people is demeaning to you and to the reputation of Solo, I now feel it necessary to post my comments. I feel it necessary to make my position clear to my fellow Solists.

I am deeply disappointed – no, to put it exactly, I am furiously angry – that you have reneged on your promise to me when we met at Jim Kilbourne’s home in Los Angeles. You said that you understood why I was so opposed to your name-calling (such as “dim-grained, treacherous, fork-tongued groupies), that it was unjust and unreasonable, that it has damaged your own reputation, and that it has severely damaged Solo and may ultimately destroy it. You said that such attacks were at an end.

I don’t know why you found it impossible to remain civil for more than two or three weeks after our conversation. Your attacks on Jennifer, for whom I feel great affection (I don’t know Kelly Elmore but I have no doubt that she is guiltless of the accusations you have thrown at her), are disgraceful. You accused Jennifer of being in league with David Elmore and said that he put her up to leaving Solo – as if she could not think for herself – and you rescinded your request that she return when Joe said he didn’t want such an “ingrate” on Solo. That accusation is the reason why she finally refused to return. You have not been candid about this episode.

And your likening yourself to Ayn Rand in this context is beyond my ability to comment upon appropriately.

I defended you in Holding Court, and I stand by the things I said. But I did not defend you, and cannot do so, when you hurl disgraceful epithets at people whom you have said five minutes ago that you admired and respected. I think you have no idea of how many people have left Solo because of this.

I seriously considered being one of those people. However – unless you insist that I leave because of this post, which you very well may do – I intend to stay, although I have said my last word on the subject of your posts and shall ignore them from now on. I shall stay because there still is much that I value on Solo, and many people whom I greatly value. I am not prepared to abandon this. I wish I could say I won’t abandon it without a fight, but there is no point in fighting with you, arguing with you, or reasoning with you. It is clear to me that you have no intention of changing, and that you even have become defiant about not changing. You still pretend that the essential issue of controversy is that you defended Joe again an unjust attack. Of course, that is utterly irrelevant.

Very well, then. You shall remain Lindsay Perigo, and I shall remain Barbara Branden.

Barbara







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Post 31

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,
Thank you for this post. If you feel that even for you, "there is no point in fighting with you (Linz), arguing with you, or reasoning with you", imagine how helpless the rest of us feel.

"I think you have no idea of how many people have left Solo because of this."
 
For those who have left, the net value of SOLO obviously has reduced to zero or worse. And their departure has greatly reduced the value of solo for me as well.

"It is clear to me that you have no intention of changing, and that you even have become defiant about not changing."

*Sigh*

Hong


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Post 32

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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Just a public thank you to Barbara for expressing many of my own sentiments and for staying in SOLO. Your presence here is the greatest individual value in SOLO that I've found.

Well, Linz will be mercurial* Linz...

Hong, I doubt if those who've left found SOLO a zero value. What they have found a zero value is the possibility of them, or their friends, engaging in dialogue that may blow up in a festering heap of invectives later on. Many of them are still here, only lurking.



*Yeah, I know a lot of people find "personality types" contemptible, or even, to use a Linzism, "beneath contempt". I say it's still better to try to understand people than to be flummoxed by them.

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Post 33

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 4:50pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

Shall I tell you how angry and disappointed I am?

If you're going to make accusations of dishonesty, I think you should either get all of the facts, or state things clearer than you have.  Lindsay is exactly right that Jennifer is the one who tossed their agreement out.  Afterwards, I told Lindsay that I didn't want her back as staff.  I did that for the obvious reason that even before Lindsay's post you got so offended over, Jennifer had already stated her intention to part ways with SOLO.  I don't want staff who are so anxious to leave and make wild and rude accusations about how we run things.

But she's the one that dropped the agreement between her and Lindsay.  She did it before I even had a chance to comment.

So now you state "That accusation is the reason why she finally refused to return.".  Unless all of the emphasis is on the term 'finally', this statement is inaccurate, and it's entirely misleading either way.  You make it sound like she wanted to come back, and Lindsay or I was the bad guy.  She was the one who decided she wasn't interested.  I can only hope that you were lied to, and that this isn't your own spin on it.  But I don't consider that a reasonable excuse for making a public accusation without getting the facts straight.  Angry and disappointed don't say half of what I'm feeling.

And considering Jennifer had threatened to sever her ties with SOLO because she didn't value it long before Lindsay's own comments, I think the issue of Lindsay defending me against Elmore is entirely relevant.  That was Jennifer's reason at the beginning for wanting to leave.  She was already threatening to leave before he said anything, and latched onto the first convenient excuse, distorting it to maximize her role as the victim.  I know people like to believe the world begins with whatever Lindsay types, but my problem with her is from before Lindsay said anything.


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Post 34

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 5:08pmSanction this postReply
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I think it is very important that everyone understand that Solo is privately owned and the owners have the right to run it as they see fit.
I think it is very important for those who own Solo to know that if they want intelligent, independent-thinking people to contribute to Solo, they will need to be sure that rules are evenly applied to all and that discourse be civil from the owners, as well as the from the other contributors. It is my belief that if we want to see Solo reach its full potential, it is very important that name-calling, an immature practice at best, not be tolerated from anyone.

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Post 35

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 5:09pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

Thank you for putting your standing to good use. One implication of the trader principle is that in dealing with bad behavior from a person who has not proven himself irredeemably evil, the goal should be not only getting justice for their misdeeds, but getting the person to be, or become, a source of mutual benefit from cooperation and trade. Another is a principled, agent-relative consequentialism: not the utilitarians' "greatest good for the greatest number," but rather the rational man's "greatest good for my own life and my own happiness."

It seems that Jennifer "earned" Linz's invective by standing with Kelly when Kelly, in Linz's view, "chose to leave in what was a gross over-reaction born of mind-boggling lack of perspective." But really, what was Kelly to do when Linz presented her husband with a demand for a public apology - which Kelly knew David would never deliver after a public demand? Kelly is a mother who wants her child to grow up in a loving, functional family. For such a family, "stand by your man" - and "stand by your woman" - is an indispensable given. Jennifer was first subjected by Linz to undeserved slurs, for no more than an expression of Jenn's appreciation for Kelly's position.

I offer to try to mediate a solution here. You, Barbara, have social skills far beyond mine, and Luke Setzer has explicitly studied the principles of negotiation, so if either of you is willing to try, I will stand back. But I hope that Linz and Joe will be at least willing to let one of us help.

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Post 36

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 5:48pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara:

Thank you for your candor. I had a run-in with Linz several years ago and since then I have avoided posting on threads where he was active. It was a balancing act between quietly leaving SOLO because of his bombastic abuse of others and my appreciation for the other aspects of SOLO.

As one of the "inner circle" you have special influence in this matter.

Sam


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Post 37

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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num++, you need to read me more carefully. ;-). I said "net value". We all see tremendous  positive value of solo. But for some, the negatives (such as personal attacks) have out-weighted the positives, or perhaps almost even out the positives?

About "personality types" or different temperament, yes, it may help to understand a person, but it is not a justification for insulting good and decent people.

Another thing that's rarely get addressed here is that everyone make mistakes, it really shouldn't be such big deal to just recognize it and admit it, and move on. All it takes is a bit of good will from oneself, and good faith in others.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 7/05, 6:33pm)


Post 38

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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Curiosity - what was the supposed reason Jennifer was no longer interested in SOLO?

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Post 39

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 6:44pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara: "I don't know why you found it impossible to remain civil for more than two or three weeks after our conversation."

Maybe Elmore's "trailer trash" post attacking Joe had something to do with it!
Didn't Jennifer say SHE was leaving. I don't think Linz asking her to come back counts as driving her away.

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