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Post 20

Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 3:15amSanction this postReply
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Cheers Joe, thanks for your input. You're right; I've been a bit quiet of late, travelling abroad and such, but visiting solo very often.

Post 21

Monday, June 30, 2003 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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Hi

Jerry states that "Animals have no rights". Could someone please explain how Objectivist distribute rights amoung things (whether living or not).

Post 22

Thursday, July 3, 2003 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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Well, John, rights are derived from man's desire to interact with others. A man living on a deserted island does not have, nor does he need, rights.

But a man living with others, in order to interact in a rational manner with other individuals and society, ~requires~ rights.
Rights are a standard of social interaction, whether between private individuals or between an individual and the state.

Objectivists do not distribute rights to anyone, like tokens of acceptance or admissions into a special club. Rights are simply a necessity of reality. Objectivists value certain things over others, and therefore must acknowledge human beings as sentient, volitional creatures with a ~requirement of certain rights~.

Animals are not sentient, volitional beings. They live, yes. But they cannot grasp abstract concepts, or act upon reason, or reason at all. An ox can see a chair before him, but he couldn't conceive of the purpose of the chair, or consider the chair ten miles down the road that he can't immediately see. Animals have no rights. They do possess inherent beauty, because they are alive, and life is an amazing thing. But humans require food, and must therefore differentiate between species, otherwise cannibalism becomes acceptable!

As for non-living things, the concept of rights can in no way be applied. A non-living thing may possess value, as a resource or commodity, or be beautiful and expensive, but that is all. A stone could not possess rights because...well, it can't ~do~ anything. If a rock had rights, we couldn't touch it or build with it, for fear of violating its rights, and the stone would sit there on its hillside for all time. If rights were applied to nonliving things, the concept of natural resources would fly out the window.

As I said, non-right-possessing things can have value, sentimental or otherwise, but can only be considered property of sentient beings. While I wouldn't destroy a painting of Michaelangelo, because 1) it isn't mine 2) it has value in its beauty, the painting could not have rights above those of its owner; it could have NO rights.
I wouldn't off-handedly slaughter a deer or bear for the satisfaction of a whim--it serves no purpose. But if I did, I couldn't be prosecuted for it...whose rights did I violate? If I destroy or steal the private property of another person, I have violated ~that person's~ rights, but certainly not the nonexistent rights of their property.

Thanks,
J

Post 23

Monday, December 8, 2003 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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This article is written with the emotional bias of a fanatical sports fan who hates and dehumanizes any team just because it plays against his beloved team. It is so silly I am not certain it isn't a joke altogehter, other than the fact that alot of people seem to be taking him seriously.

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Post 24

Friday, March 12, 2004 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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Joe, this article and your follow-up comments are just superb. Great fun to read. It is wonderful to see someone boldly destroy such a pretentious pursuit as vegetarianism, and to then display that they have the philosphical ammunition to back up seemingly lighthearted wit with undefeatable reason and logic. Excellent.

Post 25

Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:56amSanction this postReply
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Joe, remind me to make you a succulent roast beef stuffed with garlic cloves during SOLOC4.  Bravo for giving voice to the opposition of rabbit food eaters.

I have never met a vegetarian or vegan whose complexion is not gray and transparent, or who actually looked healthy.  For one brief moment in my life (pre-Objectivist), I tried veganism.  When my hair started falling out, I promptly cooked myself a nice filet mignon.

I also know a chef who refuses to serve a guest a well-done steak.  He believes it is a waste of a perfectly good piece of meat.  :) 


Post 26

Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Two thumbs up, Joe!  Even the Bible agrees with you.  Here is what an Orthodox Jew has to say against vegetarianism and the very concept of animal rights:

"There is absolutely no basis in Judaism for arguing that vegetarianism makes people more humane, and there is plenty of counter-evidence, such as the famous concern for animal "rights" by the Nazi German leadership. Ecological concern is alright in Judaism, as long as protecting the environment and endangered species is being done as part of servicing human needs, pleasures, and desires. If it is done for the sake of the animals' "rights", it is nothing better than paganism and is an abomination.

The environmentalist extremists and animalist kooks within the Jewish community tend to emerge close to the Jewish "New Year of the Trees" named Tu B'shvat. They have attempted to hijack the day and turn it into one in which environmentalist extremism is misrepresented as Biblical ethics. There is nothing in the day and nothing in the Bible that can be seen as conferring "rights" on animals. Enjoy your burgers, fish to your heart's content, wear a fur coat and leather shoes with pride! It is what the Bible wants you to do!"

From "Do Animals have rights? Not in the Bible nor in Judaism, they don't!"
by Steven Plaut 


Post 27

Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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Jennifer,

I've found the best preparation for 'rabbit food' is to wait for a rabbit to eat it. Then shoot the rabbit, skin it, dress it, dice it, & bake it into a pie.

Yours,
Duncan
(Edited by Duncan Bayne on 1/16, 4:47pm)


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Post 28

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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For some reason, while reading this thread, the words "mistaken for bacon" popped in my head. It had a nice ring, so I went with it. I started thinking about CHARLOTTE'S WEB, and what would happen if Wilbur the pig lost the competition; Charlotte would write in her web "Some Pig...Mistaken for bacon."

So here's a little poem....
AN ODE TO THE OTHER WHITE MEAT

I could've been a pork chop,
But was mistaken for bacon,
Vegetarians came and said I shouldn't be bakin...

To be eaten by you is just one of my wishes,
I'm so tender and tasty
served with sirloin and fishes.

So try me, and fry me,
you can shake me and bake me,
However you make me,
no tofu can fake me.

Sausage and bacon and pork chops, oh my!
Vegetarian? Sure! When pigs learn to fly!

So go ahead and try me,
my taste can't be beat.
Three cheers for Pork,
The Other White Meat!



Post 29

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 6:13pmSanction this postReply
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David, your post was from awhile ago, but I appreciate it a lot.  Thanks.

Jennifer, you chef friend sounds like a wonderful human being.  Looking forward to the big chunks of meat at SOLOC 4.

Michelle, thank you for your comment.  I'm a little disturbed to be in the same camp as the bible, but I'm just guessing that some truths are so clear that anyone can see them.  Thanks for the link, too.

Joe, nice poem.  The first verse came off a little rough, but it got better and better as it went.


Post 30

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Joeseph --

No sanction of religion was intended. I admired the author's robust, unapologetic, pro-meat campaign.

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Post 31

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,
Your article was great.  I enjoyed reading such a "no apologies" take on the subject.
 
I have to say I'm appalled at the number of people who posted responses to things you never wrote (for example, equating random, irrational cruelty with obtaining food).  I'm also surprised at the idea that if vegetarians didn't state explicitly "You must value an animal's life over your own" then that just can't be what they meant.  Have some of these people never heard of philosophical detection? And besides that, does anyone really expect these people to be philisophically consistent, or to state the implications of their ideas? Yet you were still able to find statements that supported exactly the philosophical premises you had identified.  Good job!
 
Jason


Post 32

Monday, August 3, 2009 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
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Hadn't seen this one before - came up from the files... good one, tho, so

BUMP... ;-)

Post 33

Sunday, January 22, 2012 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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Delicious random article. It generated some interesting discussion too.

Living life and enjoying it in a most unabashed manner. Joe, you give testament to the good life.
(Edited by Kyle Jacob Biodrowski on 1/22, 5:25pm)


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Post 34

Saturday, September 19, 2015 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Actually, a plant-based diet (that is low in fat and protein, includes B12 supplements (since animal foods are really the only natural source of B12) and has a proper balance of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acids is healthier than a diet that includes meat, fish, fowl, eggs and dairy.  Such a diet prevents cancer, heart disease, diabetes, diverticulitis and a host of other life threatening diseases.  There is now a wealth of scientific evidence to support this view.  Here is a lecture by Michael Greger, M.D. on the leading causes of death and how to prevent them with a plant-based diet.

 

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=dr.+greger's+yearly+videos&FORM=VIRE5#view=detail&mid=F81376CE3D7708686122F81376CE3D7708686122

 

I would also encourage people to visit his website Nutrition Facts.org. for any number of entertaining videos on health and nutrition.



Post 35

Sunday, September 20, 2015 - 10:30pmSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer,

 

     There have been many studies into cancer and plant based diets, the biggest I know of being the China Study by T. Colin Campbell. That book is very critical of low carb diets, as they restrict complex carbohydrates. I have been recently interested in starch based diets, and have been considering adding more starchy foods to my diet (search "the starch solution").

 

    


 

 

 

     As a side note, the words vegetarian and vegan have been thrown around in this thread and elsewhere, and most people are unaware of the real distinction. The word vegetarian has been used for more than a hundred years to refer to any person who does not eat meat for what ever reason, including people who eat no animal products. The spread of vegetarianism truly begun in the western world with the founding of the Vegetarian Society of the UK in 1847. In 1931, Mahtama Gahndi gave a speech to the vegetarian society promoting a meat-free diet as a matter of ethics, not health. The term Vegan was invented in 1944 by Donald Watson, who was concerned with the ethical treatment of animals only, and the Vegan Society was founded in the same year. Its pretty obvious that vegan does not mean a vegetarian who doesn't eat dairy or eggs, but also a radical animal rights supporter.



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