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Post 20

Friday, October 25, 2002 - 6:47pmSanction this postReply
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Just wanted to add a few more words of appreciation for the additional points made here by Anthony and Ari.

While being the first "gay Objectivist" sounds intriguing on the face of it, I doubt it will be my only legacy. :) This dialectical thing has probably defined me as much as, or more than, any other single characteristic. Still, even the "first gay Objectivist" label doesn't ring true. After all, at the very least, our esteemed Lindsay Perigo has been at the forefront of this issue for many years; our agendas coalesced so well, and it was SOLO's emphasis on this issue and others that brought me aboard, and that led me to consider doing this year-long series in the first place.

I should also say that while there were a few discussions of homosexuality in which I participated online (one in the 1990s on the old Moderated Discussion of Objectivist Philosophy, for example), the "issue" of my sexual orientation really was never an "issue" (wasn't even mentioned) until after the publication of FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS OF AYN RAND in 1999. (I was also interviewed in two gay Chicago weeklies on the subject.)

Lord knows, AYN RAND: THE RUSSIAN RADICAL (1995) was controversial enough on its own terms, and even though I dealt somewhat with the issue in that book, I do think that the discussion surrounding that book focused--quite legitimately--on its substance. Even ARI scholars attempted to deal with the book---they may have dismissed it, like John Ridpath did in his 'review' in THE INTELLECTUAL ACTIVIST, but they didn't ignore it. And that was a welcome change from their previous policies. I do not believe for a single moment that any of the criticisms leveled my way had anything to do with sexual orientation. They have had everything to do with important methodological and historical questions that my book and my approach have raised.

I'm not sure who is being more "honest" with regard to homosexuality, however. Among my 100+ interviewees, many of them were from ARI. I'm not sure if they were more nervous about coming out of the gay closet than they were about coming out of the closet as having "cooperated" with Sciabarra on anything, let alone something to do with homosexuality.

You may think ARI is more "honest," but if one goes by website hits, I can tell you that there is only a single mention of the word "homosexual" on the entire ARI site:

http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/court.html

It deals, in a single sentence, with the notorious Bowers vs. Hardwick decision.

By contrast, at The Objectivist Center site, one finds this FAQ on bold display:

http://theobjectivistcenter.org/objectivism/faqs/dmoskovitz_faq-moral-homosexual.asp

Finally, one last---and I do mean "last"---word on Jon Galt.

A little story: When my first four parts of the series were complete, a friend of mine said to me: "Did you know that there is a gay adult film star named 'Jon Galt'?" I honestly didn't.

He told me to do a google search on Jon Galt, to see if I could contact him to find out if there was any relation to Rand's ATLAS protagonist.

I eventually got some contact information for Galt, and he agreed to an interview. He told me that I was the very first person to have even MADE the connection to Ayn Rand. He picked the stage name for personal reasons, because of his deep admiration of Rand, and never dreamed anybody would ever associate him in the world of gay adult films with ATLAS SHRUGGED.

So, it's not as if he picked the name in order to promote himself. This was the first time in his career that anybody had ever asked him. It's not as if the audience is going to flock to his movies BECAUSE he is a fan of Ayn Rand's works. It was his personal way of saying thank you to Rand for having given him such inspiration to be true to himself.

To have found this man, to have interviewed him, and to have done a full year's worth of work on the subject of "Objectivism and Homosexuality," I think I would have abdicated my journalistic responsibility NOT to report it in the pages of THE FREE RADICAL. And the simple fact that this single paragraph and photo have initiated a discussion here and elsewhere tells me that there really are a lot of issues that still need to be dealt with in our little universe.

Cheers,
Chris
===
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra

Post 21

Friday, October 25, 2002 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
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More power to Chris Sciabarra in all his efforts to stir discussion of all the issues that he has raised in the Homosexuality and Objectivism series - and in his efforts to clarify and elaborate upon his views in the vigorous dialogue that has followed.

I wish to offer a few observations based on some of the comments that people have made so far in that dialogue.

Chris is absolutely right about the issues that make so many Objectivists uncomfortable, and about the need for reflection and discussion about them... AND about the need to stir up hot button, controversial issues.

Roderick Long's comment gives voice to my own reaction when I first read the very same passage from THE FOUNTAINHEAD while in high school. You definitely don't need to be gay to immediately think: "This seems homoerotic!" Long makes a great point so clearly.

It's frightening how many Objectivists HAVE NO CLUE about the value of dialogue - including, definitely, with people with whom one deeply disagrees. It's also frightening how many of them welcome Rand's willingness to be so "in your face" and controversial - but who hate it when anyone raises challenges or controversy within the "hallowed halls" of Objectivism.

Regarding the dialogue involving Chris and Olivia on the subject of sense of life... Peikoff and Rand were quite emphatic in his 1976 lecture series THE PHILOSOPHY OF OBJECTIVISM, in stressing a number of the very sorts of points that Chris stresses on this subject. Peikoff touched on this issue when he mentioned, as an example, how difficult it can be to detect that an apparently happy, married couple in fact is quite unhappy in private. In Q&A, Rand emphasized that even if a person knows another personally, sense of life is enormously complex and elusive. Although she unfortunately threw an insult in at the same time, Rand stressed that even given that her sense of life was on display everywhere in ATLAS SHRUGGED - that still, her fans couldn't know based on reading the novel, what her personal tastes in, say, music would be. In this respect, Olivia's notion of how readily accessible another person's sense of life is, radically differs from Rand's own.

So thank you to Chris Sciabarra for doing such a fine job of stirring up such valuable trouble!

Post 22

Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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Oh Chris! You are indeed an example of modesty, but let your friends and admirers exclaim your virtues, or what else are friends for? No, you may not be the FIRST HOMOSEXUAL OBJECTIVIST, but you certainly are to my knowledge, the first to write a series of installments with genuine insight. You are a new species, a mutant Objectivist:) and I prefer your version any day to the Dodos of the past. I don't mean to proclaim a Titanomachy or anything like that, and hell the Byzantine Empire was virtually extinct a thousand years past its prime. I do know however that you stand on the backs of giants and I also know that you constantly give recognition where it is due. In my eyes the little things I say about you are not much. You are young, keep writing. Who knows, some of those defending you here may one day be contributing to your Festschrift!

Cheers, Anthony

Post 23

Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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Ari,

Regarding:

One last point about Jon Galt. I would say the issue is
being obscured by offering up the example of "Playboy"
magazine. "Playboy" at the time of the Rand interview was
softcore, and carried articles from some of the best authors
in the world. It was a classy, well-produced product.

I haven't read "Advocate" for a long time by at last glance
it too was a classy, well-produced product, that shed itself
of the "seedy, pornographic" beginnings and became a vehicle
for intelligent, gay discussion.


Am I to infer that including Jon Galt in The Free Radical was inappropriate because, unlike Playboy or Advocate, it is not a classy, well-produced, or intelligent product? I beg to differ!

Post 24

Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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Hi Kernon!

I didn't think of it that way but I guess one might infer it as well. What's up Ari? I think actually the patterns are quite different. Rand agreed to an interview with Playboy and her interview appeared there, perhaps among the glossy pages with nude women. I hardly think that she wanted her article to appear in Playboy's more serious "philosophical" section:) Sciabarra on the other hand, has brought ONE small photo of a gay male VIRTUALLY clothed with only a portion of his penis visible, to FreeRadical. It was classy and it was tactfully done. FreeRad is a classy magazine with very interesting articles and excellent contributors. That's my plug for FreeRad. I hardly think that readers will be less inclined to buy the magazine because a male penis is partially on display on one of its pages. That may entice many to keep looking for more. OOPS, I went there!

Post 25

Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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I think, Anthony Teets, in his rush "to stuff me down the shoot" left his objectivity in the closet. Also, Anthony, that would be shute, as in poop shute, not shoot as in "shoot that bitch, Olivia Hanson, before she writes another post."

No doubt Anthony is a devout fan of Chris, and seems to think he has to counter my arguments with "his feelings" instead of dealing with what I said. And that is admirable that you like and admire Chris. I would like and admire him too if descended from the lofty heights of academia, and lived a little bit in this world, that is being threatened and mutiliated by fundamental Islamic insanity as well as left-wing collectivism, and not Ayn Rand.

Ayn Rand is not the enemy. She is the anecdote, no matter her shortcomings. Collectivism and altruism are the enemy.

Yet, you know something Anthony, you are a prime example of everything I was stressing. You are a product of Chris Sciabarra and his writing, a living example of what he is saying. You are angry at Ayn Rand for her statements about homosexuality, and accuse her of many things. You accuse of her creating a "moral monster" a "Frankenstein." And you of course, never balance this with the fact that homosexuality was a small grain of sand in regard to her whole philosophy, and probably something she spent little time in thinking about. And of course, where did you learn this, and where did you hear about this? From Chris Sciabarra!

Rather than making her homosexual remarks a regretable mistake, Sciabarra has blown them up into a handy weapon for anyone who wants to attack Ayn Rand. Rather than work for some position in regards to homosexuals, he keeps faulting Rand for a remark she made in 1972.

Here I sum up my case against Chris Sciabarra, who says he loves Ayn Rand.

1)Rand was opposed to the feminist movement and stated so in her writing. Chris Sciabarra helps publish a book called "Feminist Perspectives of Ayn Rand."

2)Writes a book called "Russian Radical" with the contention that Rand's philosophy is similiar in some aspects to the Marxist dialectic. Here, again does anyone dispute her reaction to this, and how she would feel about it?

3)Gives an interview where he says Howard Roark was never an influence in his life. Howard Roark was and is the essence of Ayn Rand's philosophy. How does one love Ayn Rand, but not love Howard Roark, the very essence of her philosophy?

4)In character and personality and lifestyle, is very different from the heroic personalities of Rand's writing.

I could include the article on homosexuality as more proof but we have already seen that answered by Sciabarra's loyal admirers. Yet, I would add that Sciabarra writes from a male homosexual view, and excludes the female side of the slate. In this I would say gay females are more in line with the Randian view of characters than the rather, overly gay fem-type character so prominent amongst gay males. (Surely, a generalization, and I know Jon Galt doesn't fit as I know there are many masculine gay men, but we all know that fem-types are a prominent part of that world.)

So I state in conclusion. Chris Sciabarra, whether intended or not intended is a negative force in regards to Ayn Rand, a countervaling figure who wants to change Objectivism to fit his view of the world, instead of creating a movement of his own, free of Ayn Rand.

Nothing personal Chris. Just my view. You are probably a sweetheart and I surely don't see you as evil as one of your supporters mentioned. And Anthony, feeling strongly about Chris is an admirable quality, yet your objectivity flies out the window when you defend him. Why not strive to support him, but to do so with at least an attempt to understand what I am saying, and how others may see Chris in a different light than you do.

Olivia Hanson

Post 26

Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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Well, at least you got your facts straight this time, Olivia. It's dialectics, not dualism that Chris is on about (see one of your earlier posts). Makes one wonder if you know what you're talking about.

Further, since when do Ayn Rand's "feelings" about Chris' thesis matter one little bit? How she might have felt about being described as a dialectical thinker makes no difference to the facts one way or the other. To quote you: "I think Chris you suffer the from the same Objectivist disease that runs rampant in the Objectivist world, the melding of consciousness and the objective world into one, so as to think your view of a certain situation is objective reality." I think, Olivia, that you suffer from the same Objectivist disease that runs rampant in the Objectivist (ARI) world, the melding of Ayn Rand's consciousness and the objective world into one, so as to think her view of a certain situation is objective reality.

What also runs rampant in Objectivism (but which logically shouldn't) is a deep-seated puritanism, a version in fact of the mind/body dichotomy which, like Islamic fundamentalism, believes that nakedness is an affront, and gets offended at the sight of half a penis! The penis is part of the male human body, sex and lust are part of the human experience. Is the mind to be regarded as the only important feature of humans beings? Isn't the body rather glorious as well?

Post 27

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 5:41amSanction this postReply
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Cameron,

I'll make a prediction, even though in doing so I may undermine it, and that is that Olivia will not respond to the substantive points you raise. She picks what she considers easy targets from Chris' comments and counters Anthony Teets' so-called emotional responses with her own emotions or unsupported claims, but that's about it. For example, you'll notice that she's dropped the sense of life argument.

Post 28

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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Olivia,

Sorry I mispelled a word on my post. I speak five languages and am happy to keep them all as well-organized as I do. If I make a mistake in English spelling that is fine. Oh, and it is actually spelled "chute" not "shute". That makes two of us:)

BTW: In this sentence did you mean "antidote"?

"Ayn Rand is not the enemy. She is the anecdote, no matter her shortcomings. Collectivism and altruism are the enemy."


You wrote of Dr Sciabarra (hereafter, Chris, or Sciabarra):

"I would like and admire him too if descended from the lofty heights of academia, and lived a little bit in this world..."

Are you implying that Sciabarra is a Platonist? Do you really think that Sciabarra lives in a higher realm of Ideas? Everything he writes follows a contextualist and relationalist methodology. Your accusation would disallow his context completely. BTW: How is he lofty? Didn't you also say that he was a wimp, etc? I think you are mad because he doesn't SHOOT from the hip and you would like him to think and write perhaps in the way you do or in a manner you would approve. IMPOSSIBLE.

You wrote:
"You are a product of Chris Sciabarra and his writing, a living example of what he is saying."

You don't know me Olivia. Since you admitted you don't know Chris either, I can only assume you don't want to know either of us because that may bring us both closer into context:) I am not at all ashamed to be a friend and supporter of Sciabarra. I think his work is a gold mine. He doesn't write like Ayn Rand, get over it. Chris has his own signature style that doesn't need to be blessed or approved by the Ayn Rand Institute Kosher Department:)

Rand and feminism:

You as woman should know that the feminist movement represents a multitude of shady characters as well as some genuine voices (among whom a number of Objectivists figure as well). Sciabarra and Mimi Gladstein have presented an alternative where no one else even considered the idea. I don't even want to imagine what Rand would have thought because as you and I know that would require impossible knowledge. I have never read a single sentence from Sciabarra's work that said "Ayn Rand agrees with me that..." Just because Rand is no longer around to give her stamp of approval does not mean that we cannot continue to apply her philosophy to new issues that arise. I certainly would not make the error of going to Peikoff and asking him he approves of a statement I make about Rand. Those who do so (Bernstein) are in for a real treat:) You don't know any more than Sciabarra or Peikoff, how she may have thought about the feminist movement today. Feminism is so splintered and it has evolved in so many directions. The same may be said of the gay movement. I do think there is something radical and "revolutionary" about these movements. I don't think Rand was opposed to ideology or revolution and in fact her thinking evolved in a context of radical thinking. Sciabarra has pointed that out wonderfully, much to the chagrin of her more conservative and moderate followers.

As far as Howard Roarke and Sciabarra, you may not have read his recently published article on The Fountainhead in the SUN. I think he does like Howard Roarke. You don't say this outright, but I am implying that you think that gay men like Sciabarra and others of us should "love Howard Roarke". Is this true? Well, also consider that Chris obviously admires Jo(h)n Galt:) Does that count? I just don't buy this whole obsession thing. Why do you have to be obsessed with Rand novels and characters in particular? Why can't you identify with the philosophy of Objectivism without swallowing all of Rand's character creations? Were the Greeks any less Greek if they admired Apollo and disliked Hera or Zeus? What does loving Howard Roarke have to do with anything anyway?

In my opinion, what is admirable about Sciabarra's approach in the Feminist Interpretations is that he co-edited a group of writers who are very diverse and represent a wide variety of opinion. That is something that scholars are passionate about. I still don't see your point that Sciabarra hates Ayn Rand.

Please forgive my passion for smilies:), I've been warned before, but I just can't help it.

Anthony

Post 29

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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BTW: Sciabarra's article appeared in the Daily News not in the SUN, as I mentioned. I couldn't find the piece as it was buried under a mile-high stack of articles, copies of JARS, and books by Sciabarra:)

Cheers,

Anthony

Post 30

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
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I’d like to thank the participants for furthering the dialogue, even if it seems to have broadened into a forum on Sciabarra. I’d like to reply to a few additional points raised by Olivia for the benefit of the larger discussion. This is a two-part response.

Olivia writes that Anthony, who happens to be a friend, is “a prime example of everything I was stressing. You are a product of Chris Sciabarra and his writing, a living example of what he is saying. You are angry at Ayn Rand for her statements about homosexuality, and accuse her of many things. You accuse of her creating a ‘moral monster’ a ‘Frankenstein.’ And you of course,
never balance this with the fact that homosexuality was a small grain of sand in regard to her whole philosophy, and probably something she spent little time in thinking about. And of
course, where did you learn this, and where did you hear about this? From Chris Sciabarra!”

I do not keep faulting Rand for a remark she made in the 1970s; I’ve been very careful to place that remark in context, and to trace its implications and its effects on an entire movement, particularly a sub-culture of that movement: gay Objectivists. I cannot be responsible for how others will interpret it or use it, but I can tell you that a recognition of the facts of the reality of this situation is the first step toward changing the reality.

Anthony is no more a “product of Chris Sciabarra” than Roger Bissell, Kernon Gibes, Cameron Pritchard, Roderick Long, Joe Rowlands, or any number of other people who have posted here in support of the series; each person’s arguments should be judged on their own merits, as we are all individuals here.

Turning to Olivia’s “case against Chris Sciabarra,” let me say the following:

1) Rand articulated an opposition to “Women’s Lib”; the fact that I co-edited a volume called FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS OF AYN RAND does not dispute Rand’s explicit statements. What it does is to provide a forum for discussing Rand’s similarities to and differences from contemporary feminism, as well as her impact on many “individualist feminists.” Other volumes in the series are called FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS OF PLATO, FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS OF ARISTOTLE, and so forth. You may disagree with the analyses offered in these volumes, but an “interpretation” of a thinker through various feminist perspectives, does not mean that the subject (Plato, Aristotle, Rand, etc.) is, necessarily, a feminist. (Indeed, to say this in the context of Plato or Aristotle would be anachronistic!) These volumes simply provide a forum for scholarly give-and-take on questions of gender and sexuality as they are expressed in the works of the particular thinker in question.

2) I did write a book called AYN RAND: THE RUSSIAN RADICAL, and while you will find parallels made between Rand and Marx on the question of methodology (namely, dialectical method), you are dropping the wider context of that book. The book is part of a trilogy of books called the “Dialectics and Liberty Trilogy,” which includes MARX, HAYEK, AND UTOPIA (SUNY, 1995), AYN RAND: THE RUSSIAN RADICAL (Penn State, 1995), and TOTAL FREEDOM: TOWARD A DIALECTICAL LIBERTARIANISM (Penn State, 2000). The purpose of the trilogy was to reclaim dialectics as a methodological tool in defense of liberty. And what you will find is a defense of dialectics, which I view as “the art of context-keeping.” In fact, my brief history of dialectics in part one of TOTAL FREEDOM begins with the father of dialectical inquiry: Aristotle, who made the biggest impact of any philosopher on the thinking of Ayn Rand. Chapter One of TOTAL FREEDOM is entitled: “Aristotle: The Fountainhead.” So, regardless of how Rand would feel about it (as Cameron and others suggest), the fact is, I view dialectical method as something fully in keeping with the contextual thrust of Objectivist epistemology. We can disagree about the meaning of dialectical method, but that doesn’t make me an enemy of Ayn Rand’s Objectivism. [I should point out that Roderick Long, who has participated here, has written a 60+ page ~critique~ of my trilogy in THE JOURNAL OF AYN RAND STUDIES (see ) to which I’ve written a reply, along with Roger Bissell, and Bryan Register, to which Roderick offered a rejoinder. That’s the nature of scholarly give-and-take, and even though I edit the journal, I don’t opt out of that process; I actively encourage the critical engagement... especially concerning my own work.]

See part two for the continuation of this response.

Post 31

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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This is part two of my response:


3) Olivia says I gave an interview in which I said “Howard Roark was never an influence on [my] life.” She asks: “How does one love Ayn Rand, but not love Howard Roark, the very essence of her philosophy?”

Olivia is incorrect. When I was interviewed for THE CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION, the interviewer Jeff Sharlet asked me if I ever wanted ~to be~ Howard Roark. Here I was, sitting in Windows on the World at the top of the now-destroyed World Trade Center; here I was having been photographed on the roof of 22 Cortlandt Street, while the photographer told me to give him my best “Howard Roark” pose, with the Twin Towers as backdrop, the wind whipping against my face. Here I was among New York’s greatest skyscrapers being compared to the Master Architect himself, and I was being asked if I ever wanted ~to be~ Howard Roark. I answered (and my whole answer was not reported in CHE): “I never wanted to be Howard Roark.”

And what I meant by that (and it was explained on my website, and in the huge debate that ensued after the CHE feature was published in April 1999) was: I do not reify the abstractions in Rand’s fiction and rip the characters out of their context. I learned from Rand's work that I didn't have ~to be~ Howard Roark in order to be a moral person. Being Chris Matthew Sciabarra and applying the principles of Objectivism to the context of my own life was and is enough.

As for my actual views of Howard Roark the character, let me say this. His principles, Rand’s principles, were a great inspiration to me, and I wrote a piece for THE NEW YORK DAILY NEWS for their series, “Big Town Classic Characters, New Yorkers of the American Imagination,” that tributes the character. Check it out:

http://www.nydailynews.com/city_life/big_town/story/5964p-5560c.html

Hardly the words of somebody who does not “love” Howard Roark. (I should state, however, that my “love” for Ayn Rand is a “love” of Rand’s work, not of her as a person... I never met the woman. I could only admire the many obstacles she triumphed over, and learn from the various biographical works that have been written about her.)

I therefore have no problem with Olivia’s conclusion that my “character and personality and lifestyle” are “very different from the ... personalities of Rand's writing.” I would hope so. And I’d urge everyone who has learned from Ayn Rand to apply the principles, without trying ~to be~ Roark, Rearden, Galt, Dagny, etc. Being yourself is challenging in and of itself.

4) I do not believe that I write “from a male homosexual view, and exclude the female side of the slate.” I was also born in Brooklyn to a Sicilian and Greek family. Surely my sexuality and gender and logistical and family upbringing provide me with a slate of experiences that differ from those who are not gay, not male, not Sicilian and Greek, and not from Brooklyn (which is, take it from me, a world unto itself... most people who hear me talk don’t conclude: “He’s gay.” They conclude: “Jesus! He sounds like he’s from Brooklyn!” :) ).

But I don’t believe any of these unique experiences make my views less objective. I don’t even know what a “male homosexual view” is, considering the remarkable diversity among individuals of whatever orientation. I know plenty of male homosexuals who adhere to a leftist political agenda who would renounce me with even greater ferocity than Olivia has shown in some of her posts here.

5) I do not believe I’m changing Objectivism to fit my own view of the world; I freely admit that Rand has made the biggest impact of any philosopher on my thinking. But I take full responsibility for my own views, which have been shaped by my engagement not only with Rand, but with Hayek, Rothbard, and so many other thinkers in the history of thought. I don’t think I’ve quite reached the point of having launched “Sciabarran social theory,” but I do think that I’ve put together the rudiments of a “dialectical libertarian” framework that few people would confuse with Ayn Rand’s Objectivism as such, even though, in my view, Objectivism informs the entire project.

I’m glad Olivia concludes: “Nothing personal Chris. Just my view. You are probably a sweetheart and I surely don't see you as evil as one of your supporters mentioned.” Believe it or not, I think we’ve made a little progress here.

Cheers,
Chris

===
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra
===

Post 32

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 10:04amSanction this postReply
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Hi Chris and Olivia,

I am the one who said Rand had created a "Frankenstein" out of homosexual males. It bears repeating. I defend my position although I am aware that it is very opinionated. In my opinion, she knew enough to KNOW better than make a blanket statement based on nothing more than an opinion. Sounds like a lot of opinion here, yeah? I don't care what she felt personally about music or art, making negative statements in public about the sexual choice/orientation (the nature/nurture case not being settled yet) of any person, is bigotry. To conclude that ALL homosexuals are morally depraved or psychologically unevolved because some homosexuals are depraved, psychologically unevolved, (or political leftists) says nothing at all, and it is inappropriate. It is my boisterous opinion again that Objectivism needs to make a unified statement on gay issues. If a philosopher can write essays on Marilyn Monroe and her "joyful sense of life", then the same philosopher (or an advocate of her philosophy) is capable of finding something positive to say about gay issues. This is what Sciabarra has done Olivia. BTW to respond to what was said about Jon Galt (the porn star) thinking with his dick, then where does that leave Marilyn Monroe? What part of her anatomy did she think with? Wasn't it BENEATH Ayn Rand to praise her? Did she praise Marilyn for her rationality and her intellect?

Post 33

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Anthony, I agree with you that a gay position on homosexuality would be an excellent step in the right direction. And you got me on the chute business, so you see arrogance (mine) gets pointed back at me.

As for Kernon, I think you want to demonize me. In fact, what I have been doing is expressing my point of view of some of the things I have noticed. Chris is defending himself superbly, and I imagine that what I have said, he has heard before.

I stated my opinion on the sense of life issue, and Chris has stated his. What else is there to say? Do we argue it into old age?

For the record, I have defended Chris on more than one occasion, when some supermacho Objectivist type has referred to him in hateful language. (If you want date and names, email me privately and I will gladly tell you who said it and what I said.) And while I say I defended Chris, I should amend that and say that I have defended all of us, who are gay, when I stand up and assert myself as a gay woman.

It is my experience when I assert myself, the offender always backs down and becomes sheepishly red-faced, or embarrassed, and then tries to backtrack or cover-up the "little cocksucker" remark.

Chris has done some excellent work in regard to Objectivism and gay people, and I will say that he is one of the few gay people to show courage in the face of anti-gay hostility.

So now, what shall I do? The same thing that you are accusing ARI of doing? Put my loyalty to Chris as a primary and ignore the fact that I see the situation in a very different light?

Also, almost everybody I have read ignores what I said and puts in their own subjective version of my posts.

For example, what sustantive points does Cameron Pritchard raise? He infers I am blind follower of Ayn Rand, that I believe her "view of the world is objective reality." I am not and never have been. I never said Chris should not point out her faults. What I said is that he was overdoing it, hurting her image, and giving ammunition to her enemies. CAN I MAKE THAT ANY CLEARER!!!!!!!

Granted Objectivism does have a puritanical streak running through it, and gay people are suffering from it. But Jon Galt strutting his dick, as Ari Cohen describes it, is not the answer. I know somebody who uses and sells cocaine, takes part in unprotected sex, quotes Rand and capitalism, and says she taught him how to be free. And he is gay. Is he someone you want to headline an article about gay Objectivists?

Alright, enough. I said my piece and I don't believe in prolonging disagreement.

Olivia

Post 34

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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Anthony, I agree with you that a gay position on homosexuality would be an excellent step in the right direction. And you got me on the chute business, so you see arrogance (mine) gets pointed back at me.

As for Kernon, I think you want to demonize me. In fact, what I have been doing is expressing my point of view of some of the things I have noticed. Chris is defending himself superbly, and I imagine that what I have said, he has heard before.

I stated my opinion on the sense of life issue, and Chris has stated his. What else is there to say? Do we argue it into old age?

For the record, I have defended Chris on more than one occasion, when some supermacho Objectivist type has referred to him in hateful language. (If you want date and names, email me privately and I will gladly tell you who said it and what I said.) And while I say I defended Chris, I should amend that and say that I have defended all of us, who are gay, when I stand up and assert myself as a gay woman.

It is my experience when I assert myself, the offender always backs down and becomes sheepishly red-faced, or embarrassed, and then tries to backtrack or cover-up the "little cocksucker" remark.

Chris has done some excellent work in regard to Objectivism and gay people, and I will say that he is one of the few gay people to show courage in the face of anti-gay hostility.

So now, what shall I do? The same thing that you are accusing ARI of doing? Put my loyalty to Chris as a primary and ignore the fact that I see the situation in a very different light?

Also, almost everybody I have read ignores what I said and puts in their own subjective version of my posts.

For example, what sustantive points does Cameron Pritchard raise? He infers I am blind follower of Ayn Rand, that I believe her "view of the world is objective reality." I am not and never have been. I never said Chris should not point out her faults. What I said is that he was overdoing it, hurting her image, and giving ammunition to her enemies. CAN I MAKE THAT ANY CLEARER!!!!!!!

Granted Objectivism does have a puritanical streak running through it, and gay people are suffering from it. But Jon Galt strutting his dick, as Ari Cohen describes it, is not the answer. I know somebody who uses and sells cocaine, takes part in unprotected sex, quotes Rand and capitalism, and says she taught him how to be free. And he is gay. Is he someone you want to headline an article about gay Objectivists?

Alright, enough. I said my piece and I don't believe in prolonging disagreement.

Olivia

Post 35

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 5:32pmSanction this postReply
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Whenever someone says they are exiting a thread, I feel somewhat disinclined to write anything further, as it seems as if I am merely trying to get the last word in. But, Olivia, exiting is your choice.

No, I am not trying to demonize you. You did a superb job of that on your own (mores the pity). I do notice that your posts have become increasingly more civil and less strident against Chris. He used to be "an enemy of Ayn Rand" and now he is merely "hurting her image" and "overdoing it".

You are certainly right about one thing, and that is that Chris is indeed doing a superb job of defending himself. Without in any way wishing to diminish Chris' abilities, this is because he has the facts on his side.

You say:
Put my loyalty to Chris as a primary and ignore the fact that I see the situation in a very different light?


And what would you have us do, those who see the situation in a very different light from you and agree with Chris, put our agreement aside and keep silent for fear of being accused of merely being loyal to Chris and Chris sycophants?

Perhaps when you grant some respect to those you disagree with you will get some respect in return.

Post 36

Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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Kernon you can infer anything you like, and probably will. But I can tell you what I infer from your post. I infer that you don't want to deal with my very clear description of Jon Galt, and are redirecting the discussion away from it. I made a very clear point about Jon Galt, and if you want to respond to that please do. One way or the other, I would at least enjoy an intelligent response, instead of a redirection of what I was alluding to.

Also, in regard to Olivia Hanson, I think you are the one who is not granting the respect. She disagrees and stated her views, and you are the one who is attacking her, with your snide little comments. Yes, she attacked Chris quite forcefully and the "enemy" comment belongs in the trash. Yet, at least she tried to make her point, and I think she is trying to show her admiration for him as well as her opposition.

You on the other hand, continually imply your own interpretation of her motives, but yet I have yet to witness you direct yourself to what she is saying.

Also, take a cue from Chris who has been nothing but a supreme gentleman in responding to her charges. If she deviates from proper decorum, it does not mean, you have to respond in kind. If you are gay, I would say this is even more important, because you live in a hostile world, and one must learn to deal with opposition, hostility and conflict, and turn it toward a positive outcome.

Post 37

Monday, October 28, 2002 - 7:44amSanction this postReply
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The first 300 or so words in this article tell us a few things about Jon Galt. He’s gay, an adult film star, is a Rand fan, and he’s proud of who he is/what he. In reading the reactions to the mention of Jon Galt and including his picture in the article, I was surprised as how many people think he has no right to be there. He’s accused of using the name for publicity, of thinking his body is his most highly valued possession, of not being worthy of mention because he has not built skyscrapers or run a railroad. He is even compared to a drug dealer who engages in unprotected sex. It seems if an adult film actor is mentioned in the article, every gay person who’s read Rand, no matter how horrible their sense of life is, might also be mentioned.

Chris has not put Jon Galt in the article as the person to emulate or admire. It was a series on Objectivism and Homosexuality, and Jon Galt is a gay male whose life has been influenced greatly by Rand. Chris interviewed many people for the article, and most were listed as anonymous. Jon Galt wasn’t. Chris didn’t feel that Jon’s profession warranted excluding him from the article. And after all, it was Chris’s article. If others feel that a gay, objectivist lawyer who is very successful might make a better choice to open an article, by all means go find him and write one too! I’d love to read it.

I don’t judge Jon as if I knew what he did after work, anything about his SOL, etc. And I wouldn’t judge Chris for including him as if he had just written a fictional piece where a gay adult film star with nothing else to offer us was the hero of the story.

If others view people involved in the porn business (acting or viewing) as not good enough objectivists, that’s their opinion and I could see why they would not want to include Jon in the article.

I would discount a lot of people that way, as just about everyone that I know (haven’t polled objectivists specifically) either watches porn or at least at some point has seen it. I think other things are much higher indicators. For that reason, I kept reading the article without a second thought about Jon Galt until the discussions.

As for the picture, it’s just a picture to me. It has stirred conversation, along with the whole article, which might just why writing on the subject was needed and Chris stepped up.

At any rate, I've enjoyed the articles. So, thanks, Chris!

Post 38

Monday, October 28, 2002 - 8:52amSanction this postReply
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Hi Olivia!

I am glad to see that you are in agreement about the possibilities open to formulating an Objectivist position on homosexuality. I think that the best place to start is with the theory of universals. In the eighties John Boswell (a gay advocacy scholar) was working on a thesis about "gay identity" and wrote a seminal article "Revolutions, universals, and sexual categories" (Salmagundi, 1982-3) I consider his work to be an enormous contribution and a challenge. His attempt was to cast the project of gay studies in light of philosophical thought, and he described what he saw as the underlying premises of the debate. He saw two oppositional groups (essentialists vs. social constructionists) as relying on moderate realism (essentialists) and nominalism (social constructionists). Notice how Rand's Objectivist theory of concepts is radically different from these. In the ninties these groups grew more antagonistic when Simon Levay (author of "Queer Science", 1996 and "The Sexual Brain", 1993) revealed in 1991 the results of empirical studies on the hypothalamus. The studies proposed that the hypothalamic segment of the brain could be responsible for inspiring males to seek females and that its absence or diminutive size in homosexuals may be the key to understanding their predisposition. The social constructionists have subsequently taken LeVay to task on many issues. The original arguments however, were largely abandoned, and with the rise of the new biologically-informed psychology, philosophy has taken something of a back seat. That has left the social constructionists the odd position of defending gay rights on the basis of philsophy. So we got Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick's "Epistemology of the Closet" (1990)and her monolithic construction of queer theory (oddly enough she is advocates deconstruction) that conflates the epistemological with the political. Rand had a crucial insight when she described "ideology" as the bridge between epistemology and politics. For deconstruction and postmodernism (largely informed by decon), the epistemological IS the political.

I am interested in formulating an Objectivist stance on homosexual/gay/queer (whatever nominative you prefer) issues, but I realize the enormous task that lies ahead. What I find very rewarding in Rand's Objectivism (all personal idiosyncracies bracketed) is that the axiomatic approach allows one to counter all of the sides of the debate. The metaphysical position that existence exists leads Rand to adopt metaphysical pluralism and lays the groundwork for a radical individualism. The axioms of identity and consciousness do not contradict existence in any way in Objectivism. These axioms allow for a system to be built which does not deny either existence in favor of consciousness or vice versa. Queer theory is indebted to the Kantian line of thinking, but it has been informed by the radical marxist tradition (how ironic) of the sixties (tres chic) and Americanized by Stonewall. "Now we are all leftists" declares Goldstein.

We can turn to Objectivism. I think that with this philosophic basis we can safely advance an Objectivist defense of homosexuality rooted in this philosophy. Sciabarra may have cut his teeth on Marxism, but that is only a great advantage. The problem with many Objectivists is that they don't read enough Marxist writers. When Rome fell to the Barbarians in the fifth c., it was because she took her eye off the enemy. When Byzantium fell to Mehmet in the fifteenth c., it was because she could not understand the strength of her opponent and fortified herself in orthodox rigidity.

I stated my opinion very forcefully above that Rand had some pretty nasty flaws with regard to the psychological aspects of homosexuality. In no way did I mean that I disagreed with the foundational elements of her philosophy (quite the contrary), but I find it necessary to reveal all aspects of her mind so that we keep her [bracketed] while we treat the purely philosophical components. I think she had very important things to say about philosophy and admire her more rational statements. I do not however, admire her personality. There are times when I find her approach revolting and patronizing. I find an interesting parallel between Rand and Camille Paglia in this sense. Paglia has been blasted as a lesbian-hater and a gay basher as well. The difference is that Paglia recognizes gradations and this is evident in her humor. Rand drew her observations subconsciously (disgust), based on morality (altruism? collectivism?), and perhaps even politics (gays largely associated with Communism).


In my research on Oscar Wilde I have found a similar cult of "personality" that existed in the late XIXth century and has recently resurfaced. The name of Oscar Wilde was notorious in his time. Recently he has been raised to the status of a demi-god and monopolized by leftists for political agendas that cannot even be remotely drwn from his writings. I find it intriguing that his form of individualism ran counter to the collectivist altruism that gay liberationists like Richard Goldstein, Sedgwick, Alan Sinfield, Mark Simpson (big potatoes and small potatoes:))embrace.

I am really quite excited that you have contributed to this discussion, and I believe that you are in earnest when you write "And while I say I defended Chris, I should amend that and say that I have defended all of us, who are gay, when I stand up and assert myself as a gay woman." That was a very nice thing for you to say. I have joined SOLO only very recently and I am very proud to be associated with everyone here. It takes an enormous amount of courage to admit when you are wrong, and as E.O. Wilson commented "Ethicists, scholars who specialize in moral reasoning, tend not to declare themselves on the foundations of ethics, or to admit fallibility. Rarely do we see an argument that opens with the simple statement 'this is my starting point and it could be wrong'". I like to always bear in mind that I am fallible and have a moral obligation to myself to declare it:) I would not admit (as I saw one poor chap acuse another on a forum), "to be always holding rigidly to my large phallusies":)

Cheers

BTW: (this is meant as humor only) Kernon I am glad to hear that you have crossed over to our side:) Really...there is no need to feel pressured and certainly don't let Ari dissuade you from being as vocal about this as you'd like. LOL When and if you do come out of the closet I promise to be as supportive as I can be. That goes for all of you gentle heteroes on SOLO!!

Post 39

Monday, October 28, 2002 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Ari,

Could you explain what "...infer anything you like, and probably will" means? Does that mean that my inferences won't correspond to reality but rather whim? Would you consider that a snide remark? That you would "enjoy an intelligent response" implies that my response to you was not intelligent. Would you consider that a snide comment? What is your inference that I "don't want to deal with" your description of Jon Galt based upon? Merely the omission, or do you have a crystal ball into my motives?

Since you counsel me to drop the snide comments to Olivia, I am curious why you didn't follow your own advice with respect to your response to me? Do you believe that your response to me constitutes a turn toward a positive outcome?

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