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Post 120

Monday, November 11, 2002 - 2:03amSanction this postReply
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Looks like the troll is undone...

Post 121

Monday, November 11, 2002 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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olivia-myron-sal, (that could be formulated using a counting method, and you are quite a probability problem aren't you?) All three of you have written:

"This is the thread I am posting on."

How can you refer to yourself as "I"?

Well, I am Hermes the Messenger, and I am glad that you responded to me in the way you did. I am not a coward at all. I was actually hoping that you (as olivia) would take me up on the invitation to discuss philosophical issues elsewhere. It would have been a dreadful waste of time. You responded (as olivia) that you were deluged with work. Yes you were very busy being sal, olivia, and myron. You described yourself (olivia) as defending Sciabarra, yet you waste his time as well. Why do you prey on people in this manner? No need to answer me. Just read this and start working on reforming your life.

I actually didn't have the empirical evidence that Admin has provided, but I was VERY suspicious when all three of you started defending myron simultaneously. My observations from your posts proved correct. Similar grammar, typoes, spelling. Your arguments are all the same, and you have a general dislike of women. All three of you say that Rand disliked women and provided this as evidence and a justification. You attack people on the grounds of personality and judge them for what they like or who they are. You used bio from Glenn's spot on SOLO, and you viciously attacked Ms. Bushnell for being a woman!

My mythological references are perfectly applicable here. It was Perseus (Glenn, but I think he fancies the name Bellerophon as well) who fought the three-headed Gorgon (you) and it was Athena (Goddess of reason and protectress of heros) and Hermes (me) that aided him in his quest. In the Greek myth it was Hermes that provided Perseus with a sack in which to place the head of Medusa. (Matthew, please correct me if I'm wrong)

So how do you like that? You are exposed! Good grief, why am I talking to a troll? Go crawl under a rock somewhere and meditate:)

Post 122

Monday, November 11, 2002 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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Dr. Dialectician,

Oh boy! You slay me. Since you don't identify I am going to start thinking that you are Dr. Ruth. Do you have an opinion on cucumbers and peanut butter as well? :)
Anthony

Post 123

Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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Sciaberra wrote: "[Anti-gay] brutality was practiced in such Communist countries as China, Russia, and Cuba, but it was also practiced in Hitler's Germany, where those notorious 'anti-Marxists,' the Nazis, discovered the virtue of the Pink Triangle as a way of identifying-and systematically murdering-homosexuals."

To claim the Nazis "systematically " murdered homosexuals is sheer casuistry. Scott Lively and Kevin Abrahams' excellent book "The Pink Swastika" demonstrates conclusively that the National Socialist police state was used by the militaristic bull queers who controlled the Nazi Party to eradicate the effeminate, womanish nancy boys whom they despised as enfeebled. Bogus accusations of homosexuality were also trumped up to marginalise and imprison political opponents.

Being an objectivist, it's hoped you're not one of those people who has no conception of evidence, but simply regards evidence as somebody else's opinion.

I'd suggest, Mr Sciaberra, that you acquaint yourself with the above book, and stop quoting inaccurate gay activist cant.

A number of assertions have been made by other commentators regarding various aspects of the homosexual lifestyle. As this is a lengthy thread, I won't trouble myself overly with going back through it to address these individually. Below is a general response.

It has been disputed that homosexuality is a dangerous and unsanitary lifestyle. Gay activist, Gabriel Rotello is certainly prepared to concede that it is.

In "Sexual Ecology," Rotello wrote, "gay men created almost laboratory conditions to amplify STDs within highly active core groups of individuals and spread these diseases throughout the gay population."

As detailing the ways in which AIDS and other STDs are spread among gay males invariably leads to accusations of closeted obsession with these practices, I'll refrain this time if you'll all hold the ad hominem arguments.

In any event, combined with the existence of core groups of men who engage in extraordinary levels of sexual behaviour, and high rates of sexual mixing between people in those core groups and the rest of the gay population, such practices often prove lethal.

According to US statistics, the average gay man has 36 different partners a year at commercial sex establishments (bars, saunas, bathhouses), at parks and in public toilets. Some have upwards of 1, 000.

Rampant infection with a bewildering array of pathogens is the inevitable result. The American Journal of Tropical Medical Hygiene reported as early as 1968 that certain gay communities had begun to display rates of STDs and gastrointestinal parasites equivalent to those of a third world slum in Uganda or Bangladesh.

In Surviving AIDS, Michael Callen wrote: "It wasn’t until I was officially diagnosed with AIDS that I faced squarely up to just how much sex and how much disease I’d had. I calculated that since becoming sexually active in 1973, I had racked up more than 3000 different sex partners in bathhouses, back rooms, meat racks and tearooms. As a consequence, I had already had the following STDs, many more than once: Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C; herpes simplex types I and II; venereal warts; amoebiasis including giardia lamblia and entomoeba histolytica; shigella flexnari and salmonella; syphilis; gonorrhea; non-specific urethritis; chlamydia; cytomegalovirus and Epstein-Barr virus; mononucleosis; and cryptosporidiosis."

In the interests of delicacy (and to afford the ignorant the amusement of looking them up), I won’t translate the more obscure diseases into plain language or explore their modes of transmission, but anyone interested can find them in a good dictionary of medical terminology. No wonder obituaries culled from gay magazines and journals show that many gay men die early deaths.

Gay apologists often claim that: "It isn’t possible to make of a man something he was not already inclined to." Isn’t it? According to noted US child sex abuse expert, David Finkelhor, "boys victimised by older men were over four times more likely to be currently engaged in homosexual sexual activity than were non-victims. The finding applied to nearly half the boys who’d had such an experience ... Further, the victims themselves often linked their homosexuality to their victimisation experiences."

(Of course, these kindly sodomites were just helping the kids to "come out," right?)

Evidence shows also that disproportionate numbers of gay men seek adolescent males or boys as sexual partners. Indeed, individuals from the 1 to 3 percent of the population that is sexually attracted to the same sex are committing up to one-third of all sex crimes against children.

This surely lends weight to parents’ fears that children may be molested, encouraged to become sexually active, or even "recruited" into adopting a homosexual identity and lifestyle if evangelical gay activists are allowed into schools and scoutmastering.

The original argument from gay activists was that what took place in private between consenting adults was their own business. I totally agree.

Now, they're demanding that their sexual behaviour be everybody's business, and branding those who object to homosexual lifestyles being thrust in the public's face at every turn "homophobic."

If you want to pack the fudge, just go do it, and stop loudly broadcasting it to everyone else all the time.You'll be surprised at how tolerant most people are if that's your approach to life.

It seems a lot of you are looking for validation for your homosexuality through objectivism. As stated in an earlier posting, objectively speaking, homosexuality is an evolutionary dead end. Heterosexual intercourse potentially creates life. Homosexual intercourse creates nothing but bacterial life.

All obejectivism does is validate anybody's right to go to hell in their own way as long as their interactions with others are engaged in volutarily and without force or fraud. It can never validate the objectively unsustainable as some of you would like it to.

Post 124

Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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"homosexuality is a dangerous and unsanitary lifestyle"

There goes my Collectivist Terms Alert *again* !

Post 125

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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If Mr. Chapple wants to focus on how some people use the state to oppress other people, he'll get no argument from me. But if he wishes to start his post by denying male homosexual oppression under the Third Reich, then maybe he ought to better acquaint himself with the amendments and applications to Paragraph 175 in the Reich Penal Code.

The stats show that the Nazis arrested approximately 100,000 men as homosexuals. Approximately 10,000 to 15,000 of these were incarcerated in concentration camps forced to wear the Pink Triangle. Most were marked for slave labor, medical experimentation or castration.

Happy New Year.

Cheers,
Chris

Post 126

Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Chapple could take the things he says about promiscuous gay sex and just as easily apply them to promiscuous heterosexual sex; he makes no reference to monogamous (monoandrous?) relationships. Yes, you're going to get sick if you sleep around, and it doesn't matter what your tastes are.

Post 127

Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Mr Sciaberra is again directed to "The Pink Swastika," which entirely rebuts his assertion that homosexuals as a class were targeted for Nazi oppression.

A couple of quotes will suffice to make my point:

"As we have noted, revisionists have attempted to define homosexuals as a class of people who were 'targeted for extermination' by the Nazis. One homosexual group went so far as to stage a high-profile 'pilgrimage' to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem in May of 1994. They were met by a delegation of Jewish Holocaust survivors who were so overcome with outrage that some of them had to be restrained from physically assaulting the contingent of (mostly American) political activists. One man cried, 'My grandfather was killed for refusing to have sexual relations with the camp commandant. You are desecrating this place...' (The Jerusalem Post, May 30, 1994).

"Yet, as we have noted, some homosexuals did in fact die in Nazi concentration camps. We do not diminish the tragedy of any life lost under the Nazi reign of terror; however, we must reject the implication that homosexuals as a class should be given moral equivalency to the Jewish people and other victims of genocide. There are five reasons why we must reject this claim of the revisionists.

"First, we know that regardless of Himmler’s anti-homosexual rhetoric, homosexuals as a class were never targeted for extermination, as their continued role in the Third Reich demonstrates. Second, those homosexuals who died did so primarily as the result of mistreatment and disease in slave-labor camps -- not in the gas chambers. Third, though we cannot condone the form of punishment meted out by the Nazis, homosexual sodomy was a legitimate crime of long-standing for which individuals were being jailed both before and after the Nazi Regime (and in this country during the same time period). This is in contrast to the internment of Jewish people, whose ethnicity is morally (and in pre-Nazi Germany, legally) neutral. Fourth, the actual number of homosexuals in the camps was a tiny fraction of both the estimated number of homosexuals in Germany and the estimate of the camp population. The camp homosexual population, estimated at 5,000-15,000 by Joan Ringelheim of the US Holocaust museum (Rose:40), contained an undetermined percentage of non-homosexuals falsely labeled as homosexuals (see section titled 'Anti-homosexual Policies' above). Homosexuals who died were 'a small fraction of less than 1 percent' of homosexuals in Nazi-occupied Europe (S. Katz:146), compared to more than 85 percent of European Jewry. Fifth and last, many of the guards and administrators responsible for the infamous concentration camp atrocities were homosexuals themselves, which negates the idea that homosexuals in general were being persecuted and interned."

"Dr. Judith Reisman, in 'The Pink Swastika and Holocaust Revisionist History,' wrote this comparison of the fate of the two groups under the Nazis:

Were homosexuals treated like Jews, 2-3 million out of 2-3 million German homosexuals should have lost their businesses, their jobs, their property, their possessions and most would have lost their lives. Homosexuals would have been forced to wear pink triangles on their clothing in the streets, they would have had their passports stamped with an 'H,' been barred from travel, work, shopping, public appearances without their armbands, and we would have thousands of pictures of pink triangle graffiti saying 'kill the faggots,' and the like. If German homosexuals were not Nazis, these 2-3 million men would have been homeless, walled in ghettos, worked as a mass labor pool, then gassed and their abuse recorded in graphic detail, as were the millions of Jews. And, if Germany’s several million 'gays' were not Nazi victims, they were Nazi soldiers, collaborators or murderers (Reisman:Culture Wars, April 1996).

Post 128

Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Mr Sciaberra is again directed to "The Pink Swastika," which entirely rebuts his assertion that homosexuals as a class were targeted for Nazi oppression.

A couple of quotes will suffice to make my point:

"As we have noted, revisionists have attempted to define homosexuals as a class of people who were 'targeted for extermination' by the Nazis. One homosexual group went so far as to stage a high-profile 'pilgrimage' to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem in May of 1994. They were met by a delegation of Jewish Holocaust survivors who were so overcome with outrage that some of them had to be restrained from physically assaulting the contingent of (mostly American) political activists. One man cried, 'My grandfather was killed for refusing to have sexual relations with the camp commandant. You are desecrating this place...' (The Jerusalem Post, May 30, 1994).

"Yet, as we have noted, some homosexuals did in fact die in Nazi concentration camps. We do not diminish the tragedy of any life lost under the Nazi reign of terror; however, we must reject the implication that homosexuals as a class should be given moral equivalency to the Jewish people and other victims of genocide. There are five reasons why we must reject this claim of the revisionists.

"First, we know that regardless of Himmler’s anti-homosexual rhetoric, homosexuals as a class were never targeted for extermination, as their continued role in the Third Reich demonstrates. Second, those homosexuals who died did so primarily as the result of mistreatment and disease in slave-labor camps -- not in the gas chambers. Third, though we cannot condone the form of punishment meted out by the Nazis, homosexual sodomy was a legitimate crime of long-standing for which individuals were being jailed both before and after the Nazi Regime (and in this country during the same time period). This is in contrast to the internment of Jewish people, whose ethnicity is morally (and in pre-Nazi Germany, legally) neutral. Fourth, the actual number of homosexuals in the camps was a tiny fraction of both the estimated number of homosexuals in Germany and the estimate of the camp population. The camp homosexual population, estimated at 5,000-15,000 by Joan Ringelheim of the US Holocaust museum (Rose:40), contained an undetermined percentage of non-homosexuals falsely labeled as homosexuals (see section titled 'Anti-homosexual Policies' above). Homosexuals who died were 'a small fraction of less than 1 percent' of homosexuals in Nazi-occupied Europe (S. Katz:146), compared to more than 85 percent of European Jewry. Fifth and last, many of the guards and administrators responsible for the infamous concentration camp atrocities were homosexuals themselves, which negates the idea that homosexuals in general were being persecuted and interned."

"Dr. Judith Reisman, in 'The Pink Swastika and Holocaust Revisionist History,' wrote this comparison of the fate of the two groups under the Nazis:

Were homosexuals treated like Jews, 2-3 million out of 2-3 million German homosexuals should have lost their businesses, their jobs, their property, their possessions and most would have lost their lives. Homosexuals would have been forced to wear pink triangles on their clothing in the streets, they would have had their passports stamped with an 'H,' been barred from travel, work, shopping, public appearances without their armbands, and we would have thousands of pictures of pink triangle graffiti saying 'kill the faggots,' and the like. If German homosexuals were not Nazis, these 2-3 million men would have been homeless, walled in ghettos, worked as a mass labor pool, then gassed and their abuse recorded in graphic detail, as were the millions of Jews. And, if Germany’s several million 'gays' were not Nazi victims, they were Nazi soldiers, collaborators or murderers (Reisman:Culture Wars, April 1996).

Post 129

Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 7:08amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Chapple: I am an individualist. If just ~one~ person were murdered for being a homosexual, it would be no less a tragedy than if that person were a Jew, a gypsy, or a Nigerian. The fact that ~some~ were murdered ~because~ they were gay men is ~enough~ for me. (An interesting documentary called "Paragraph 175" recently discussed this whole issue.)

And it doesn't matter if some of the killers were ~homosexual~ themselves. There are a lot of self-hating people out there who seek to destroy that which they hate most about themselves. That's the whole point of creating a more humane society, and a more humane way of looking at sexual orientation. (Now, we're starting to hear stuff about Hitler himself being gay... wonders never cease!)

It is also a fact that many Jews were co-opted into the machinery of death in the concentration camps; in that nightmare existence, where moral choices have been inverted and distorted beyond recognition, the tragedy is compounded in ways that are unfathomable.

Chris

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