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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 5:04amSanction this postReply
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"So, why aren’t more Objectvists like this?"

That is a great question. I hope the continuation of your article goes into this.

Why are we (and I use this term as a loose generality) so ready to take offense? It's as if we expect to be attacked for our views and are therefore looking for the veiled insult in the nuance of every statement. Suddenly, someone comes along and blatently says joyfully "shut the fuck up you idiot" and we get bowled over by it. You see! They are trying to shut us up! Its censorship! They have no argument to counter us! *Howl * *Sob* You viscious totalitiarian thugs are trying to silence me! It all smacks of under-confidence and over-sensitivity.

I've commented that polite debate is a good thing in several posts in the past, but I can honestly say, that these viscious attacks, taken in their proper context, are wonderful. We can be serious, but taking ourselves too seriously is just silly. The best times I've had with co-workers and friends is during such exchanges of colorful metaphors.



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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 5:24amSanction this postReply
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I suspect that many Objectivists really are like that -- or, rather, they were. Sadly, many of them find themselves, very early, amid ARI types, where they are informed that gloomy despair and a towering rage are the only appropriate reactions to the world,and so they gradually cut off their own spontaneity -- then wonder (silently, because they dare not admit it) why they find so little joy in a philosophy of joy.

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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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"So, why aren’t more Objectvists like this?"

Well, we all have anuses, but not everyone has a belly. That requires a strict red-meat and red-wine diet :-)

Reminds me how it used to be popular to say that a sense of humour was like an asshole (or was it anus?), because we've all got one.

"The moniker "anal-retentive," alludes, I suspect, to something deeply uncomfortable—like a cactus—placed where, I equally suspect, the retentive secretly desires nothing more than a good piece of man-meat!"

If this statement from Linz doesn't get a belly laugh, I don't know what else will :-) 


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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
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I offer this possibility: Because there is of yet no 'objectivism lite'. People who become objectivist feel as if they have entered a course in 'quantum physics'. Everyone feels compelled to master the academic nuances of epistemology and metaphysics - in sum they feel that they must be 'philosophers' themselves. There’s just nothing really funny about living your life as if it were the physical expression of writing a thesis.

 

What’s worse is that the many (NOT all) of the intellectual academics of objectivism leave the impression that anything less than near mastery of the concepts involved is a personal failure on the part of the novice. He has failed to properly  'integrate', 'concretize’,’ abstract’... ad nausea. As a result those that stick it out, tend to act out the psychological image they have of a 'genius philosopher', and that image does not usually include the capacity for foolishness or lightheartedness. As time goes on they begin to resemble a sculpture more than a living being – the ‘thinker’ forever pondering the weighty issues of existence and knowledge. They elevate this image to an ideal.

 

I have found the above example to be true about half the time. But the other half is no better. The other half is far worse, these are the ones that ALWAYS seem to be ‘joking around – but in reality there is no humor in their comments, they claim its humor, but in reality its something else. It is pure: sarcasm, a biting invective sarcasm that masquerades as humor. These are the types that are usually very proficient with objectivist terminology and discourse – which makes them doubly dangerous. And it is these very types that pound the ones in my first example – therefore reinforcing the first group’s belief in the need to ‘stay above it all’.

 

Until room is made for the casual objectivist or semi-objectivist, this process will continue. There will always be those that choose to explore the very depths of objectivist philosophy, so the work and value of objectivist academics will always be very important. Besides, these are the men that lay the very foundations of a philosophical movement. BUT, as long as this movement appears to be elitist, its adherents will act as elitist do – stoically or sarcastically.

 

Lastly, there is an overwhelming tendency towards gross exaggeration by objectivist. Example; the government raises the minimum wage, and instantly analogies are made that equate with Nazi Germany, OR some idiotic Bishop has the Presidents ear, and instantly analogies are made that equate with Islamic theocracy. For a group of people that pride themselves on their ability to think contextually, we quite often fail to do so. What does this all have to do with a sense of humor you ask? Since every argument is couched in a life and death context  - such issues are not funny, and it would be inappropriate to add humor in life and death discussions. Far too many objectivists suffer from the inability to have a proper sense of ‘degree’ or ‘proportionality’.

 

Given enough time in talking and thinking along these lines, the objectivist loses his ability to have a balanced and appropriate sense of humor. The heavy emphasis on all things malevolent and evil, along with the ‘lip service’ that most objectivist pay to the ‘benevolent universe premise’, that they claim they espouse – it all begins to wear on them over time. The results are what you see all around you; an over-representation of brooding stoics and sarcastic bastards.

 

Sincerely,

 

George W. Cordero


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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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That last post of mine strikes me as being somewhat dark and brooding in its tone, while also tending towards sarcasm.

I may have single handedly created a 3rd group: the brooding stoic that occaisionally acts like a sarcastic bastard.

George


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Post 5

Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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That sounds fun, George!  Can I join?

Ah, belly-laughers.  What a fun bunch they were.  Sadly, I was forced to give up membership long ago, after a serious bout of belly-laughery that led--quite painfully---to the abrupt and final rupture of an inguinal hernia I'd been putting off for years.  The damage was "repaired" (sneer quotes because Army "doctors" ((read: ham-fisted pig-fuckers)) did the "repairing") but I was never the same.

Now I titter.  Tee-hee.




Edit # 2:  Hahahahahaha!  Someone--a level three Atlas guy or whatever--gave me a No Sanction for this post!  I'm composing my official condemnation of myself through tears of sorrow, I promise! 

Ahh...I love SOLOHQ.  : P




(Edited by Jeremy on 8/16, 11:01pm)


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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:59pmSanction this postReply
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Jeremy wrote:
Army "doctors" ((read: ham-fisted pig-fuckers))
Your condition must be contagious over the Internet.  I read this and promptly broke out into hysterical belly laughter!

If only every advocate of socialized medicine could have Army doctors practice their handiwork on them ...


Luke Setzer


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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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'Where have you been all my life!'
 
One thing I know without any philosophy, proof, or evidenciary circumstances:
If I can laugh about it, freely and without any reservation, I'm absolutely, positively right! Simply because it 'feels' right.
 
You cannot laugh at a problem if you have not solved it, you cannot laugh at something that is not absolutely true, so every time I start 'worrying' about a problem I cannot fully grasp intellectually and suddenly I stumble across an obvious and extremely funny truth, or just a silly remark on that topic, I simply start laughing ... and I know I'm on the right track again, even if it takes a few moments to grasp that track intellectually, to understand why it is so funny - and thus so right ...
 
Keep laughing all you screwed-up non-sensical philosophers of the belly ... it sure ain't coincidence that one of my better recent laughs and this article coincide :))


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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 1:04pmSanction this postReply
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And so it is (an expression I find myself usually saying after reading Lindsay). I am honored by inclusion on your list. My first thought was that we could divide the world into the AR's (anal-retentives) and the BL's (belly-laughers), but I then realized that the AR abbreviation might cause some confusion in an Objectivist gathering, and God knows there is enough confusion at these without adding to it. Also, since the belly portion of BL ain't quite so funny to me lately, I won't be pushing for AR and BL in the immediate future.
But when I do again, Barbara Branden is a BL of the first order. Certainly, it is our sense-of-life qualities that made us friends within milliseconds when we met in Athens in 1995. And at least through last night our frequent social evenings result in aching sides and serious dehydration problems resulting from constant water loss from crying over great music. We went to the Hollywood Bowl (I live a healthy spit away from it) to see a stage presentation of Puccini's Turandot last night, so the rest of you, EAT YOUR HEARTS OUT!
I firmly believe that crying with joy is just as important as laughing with joy. To add to Lindsays fine compliments, I offer my two favorites that I have received to date:
My friend Dino says to anyone who will listen that I am the only person in the world besides himself who really gives a damn.
The other was overheard and meant as an insult. "My God, Kilbourne is exhausting!
My answer is "Thank you! Now, for Christ's sake, get out of my way!"

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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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Ayn Rand and her ridiculously (and falsely) authoritative views regarding humor probably deserve some of the blame for this. Young people who swallow her spoon, milk and cereal run into the declarations of so many forms of humor and comedy as "evil" and "contemptible evil."

Humor is one of the highest forms of joy--and that is true regardless of whether it's butt is "the good" or "the evil". By making fun of "the good" you are merely exploiting it for ever more enjoyment. By making fun of yourself, you are becoming superior to yourself, or your former self, or your laughable self. You are gaining ever more wisdom about life. Why couldn't Rand understand this?

Your mama, that's why. 


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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, brilliant. You filled the last gap in objectivist philosophy. It is a virtue to belly-laugh. Objectivism shalt now be considered closed :-).

George: I loved your comment regarding "casual objectivists". It helped me understand the way I feel. I have no interest in the finer points of philosophy, I just want to live life and understand how I should live it best. I want to learn from inspiring people, not by nit-picking twits who hang over the meaning of "is". May I be the first member of your "casual objectivists" club?

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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Beretelsen,

It is clear to me that you havn't properly integrated the 2 abstract concepts given as illustration. Your failure has lead you to arrive at a false premise, a premise that has lead you to evade reality and thus resulted in the non-contexual position which you have now taken. You have compounded this error by making unwarrented assumptions about my motivations. For far too long objectivism has tolerated intellectually lazy individuals such as you. Your insidious poisoning of objectivism leaves me no doubt that you are a subjectivist, intrinsicist and the lead tenor for the Mormon Tabernacle Church. Therefore, you have left me no choice but to disassociate myself from you. I will be following up with a more in depth explanation for my actions, in my upcoming article: Truth and In-toleration.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/16, 1:46pm)

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/16, 1:49pm)

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/16, 2:16pm)


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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 2:11pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Cordero,

I belly-laugh in your face! I would take offence but (as you know) I didn't understand a word of that twaddle. You are a lamb in sheep's clothing, and I don't to be in your club any more ;-).

Post 13

Monday, August 16, 2004 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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I too have found that most objectivist's are stuck-up and are annoyed by my often silly, sarcastic, teasing, and childish nature.  To my great relief I have found sites such as this one to find that not all "objectivists" are self-righteous cacti.  The commonly circlulated list of "Most inappropriate things an Objectivist can say during sex" has often been attacked by such people, when I think it is one of the funniest things I have ever read.  If you want a really enjoyable laugh, go to savethehumans.com. It's the funniest place on the web for us belly-laughing objectivists.

Rae :P


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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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Greetings.

I merely wish to say that I have never disagreed more with any other SOLO article. If this is the avowed "spirit of SOLO," I certainly do not represent it, and am proud of the fact. Now, hollering obscenities back and forth is considered "joie de vivre," and filosofy is to be reduced back to the bog of the primeval, to warrantless exclamations by those who do not care for its "finer, academic facets." Filosofy is an academic discipline, and ought to be elevated to the level of a genuine science in methodology, terminology, and the characteristic effort and personality required to grasp it. If one seeks anything less, one has come to the wrong field!

The responses are even more alarming. Ms. Vera S. Doerr posts a statement which effectively claims that emotions are valid tools of cognition, and and Mr. Alec Mouhibian condemns some of Rand's most pivotal insights concerning the distinction between humor and sacrilege. These comments make me wonder whether SOLO represents Objectivism, or Rothbardianism. As I wrote in my critique of Rothbard's "Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult:" http://solohq.com/Articles/Stolyarov/A_Critique_of_Murray_Rothbards_Sociology_of_the_Ayn_Rand_Cult_(Part_2_of_3).shtml

What is Humor and What is Sacrilege?

"Kill by laughter. Laughter is an instrument of human joy. Learn to use it as a weapon of destruction. Turn it into a sneer. It's simple. Tell them to laugh at everything. Tell them that a sense of humor is an unlimited virtue. Don't let anything remain sacred in a man's soul-and his soul won't be sacred to him. Kill reverence and you've killed the hero in man. One doesn't reverence with a giggle." So declares Ellsworth M. Toohey, the arch-collectivist from Rand's other literary epic, The Fountainhead. Humor within certain bounds can be employed as a means of comprehension or enjoyment. An innocent joke, a paradox, a satire sharpen an individual's reasoning ability while amplifying his rightly gained pleasure. Humor can be employed to expose the horde of fallacies, buffooneries, and hypocrisies plaguing modern society, and is thereby a potent educational tool. However, humor must not be employed to sneer at a man's self-image, at, in Rand's words, "the sacred temple of his soul," his genuine ambitions, his sense of life, and the joy that he takes in living by principle and practice. This is the difference between a laugh and a giggle. A laugh is the call of a giant, resonating with an ecstatic appreciation of his own existence. A giggle is the buzzing of a pest around the giant's head, in preparation for inserting a stinger where it hurts, the most sacred reaches of a man's mind.

Rand had always advocated a human being who is radiantly happy in his productive endeavors, and used humor without abusing it. But what says Rothbard? In reference to the incident wherein a newlywed couple sought inspiration from the pages of Atlas Shrugged, "wit and humor, as might be gathered from this incident, were verboten in the Randian movement. The philosophical rationale was that humor demonstrates that one 'is not serious about one's values.' The actual reason, of course, is that no cult can withstand the piercing and sobering effect, the sane perspective, provided by humor. One was permitted to sneer at one's enemies, but that was the only humor allowed, if humor that be." What "sobering and sane effect," Dr. Rothbard, is derived from renouncing one's guiding principles, one's tools for living, with mocking contempt, from posing not an open intellectual challenge to another's values (assuming one disagrees with them, which, Rothbard, to an extent, does) but an underhanded, contemptuous "low blow" to any dignity and esteem? How can renunciation of all principles and all of the elevated faculties of man in favor of a giggle be considered "sane?" It is such only to a perceptually-bound mind embracing the side of the mind/body dichotomy that repudiates all consistency and integrated living.


Do you really wish to reconcile Objectivism with the doctrines of Ellsworth Toohey?

I am not against an occasional earnest laugh, but such a laugh bears its significance precisely by the fact of its rarity. It is one of the most powerful emotional expressions available to man, and, if used to respond to a trifle, what is left to address the genuinely great and radiant events of one's life? A belly laugh is akin to a chocolate cake, quite fitting for an extraordinary occasion, but highly dangerous to consume too frequently.

I am
G. Stolyarov II
Editor-in-Chief, The Rational Argumentator
Proprietor, The Rational Argumentator Online Store
Author, Eden against the Colossus
Chief Administrator, Chicago Methuselah Foundation Fund
Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917 




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Post 15

Monday, August 16, 2004 - 3:50pmSanction this postReply
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Why do I feel that now's a good time to put a Q.E.D. on the end of Linz's article?

And thanks to Rachel for the savethehumans.com heads up. I'm enjoying myself over there (I think #2 is my favorite on the list of Most Inappropriate Things an Objectivist Can Say During Sex).

Jana

Post 16

Monday, August 16, 2004 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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In this case, I am wholly in agreement with Mr. Stolyarov. That mockery, insults, argumentum ad hominem, and prolonged emotional abuse can be considered valid means of discussion so long as they are "funny" is, well, terrifying. let us note that there is no such thing as a non-condemnatory joke. when was the last time, the last time ever, that any joke had anything positive to say about its target? never. complimentary jokes arent funny, because the entire point of a joke is to be non-complimentary. a joke is funny purely because it hurts, insults, or demeans its target, and only to the extent it does so. to laugh at is to condemn. again, when was the last time one ever encountered a joke which portrayed its target in a positive light? that was actually funny?

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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stolyarov,

I mostly agree with you on this. I disagree with your statement "I am not against an occasional earnest laugh, but such a laugh bears its significance precisely by the fact of its rarity" in that laughter need not be a rare event.

I laugh a lot, but there are some things that I never laugh or joke about, starting with my work and my love.

Profanity. Isaac Asimov wrote in one of his Foundation novels: 'violence is the last resort of the incompetent.' I often think that use of profanity is also a form of violence, whether they are uttered in anger or in a 'lighter vein.'

coaltontrail



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Monday, August 16, 2004 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Greetings.

Thank you, Mr. Bisno and Coalton Trail, for your comments. Some people may indeed find that the world holds so many absurdities and irrationalities which deserve to be laughed at, or that it is full of such intense happiness that deserves a passionate, non-humorous laugh (which is an entirely different category of laugh altogether; it even sounds different, like a triumfant trumpet fanfare compared to a squawking comedy saxofone [not to denounce saxofones altogether, just some of the uses to which they are put]).

Most people, however, do not laugh genuinely. Rather, they create for themselves an facade that conveys far greater "happiness" than they are actually experiencing. Like the fake foto-smile, the fake laugh is easily seen through for the fraud that it is, but the conformists and fanatics of the mainstream tacitly accept it as necessary and even natural. The general rule for discerning undesirable laughter from genuine laughter is this: if one laughs for the sake of laughing, or smiles for the sake of smiling, one is abusing the aforementioned mechanisms. The above motivations are exactly the motivations of the emotionalist, who follows his feelings for feelings' sake. Laughter and smiling need to be elicited by actual, real, significant events, not the false idol of "spontaneity," another word for emotionalism and whim-worship. (This is, by the way, why I seldom, if ever, smile on fotografs. Unless someone tries to be witty in front of me during the timeframe of the fotograf's production, or if I am truly elated at something, I am in a fairly neutral emotional state when my picture is taken. I will not deceive anyone as to this fact.)

Our civilization is perishing from an orgy of false laughter. This is why I can understand the reaction to this: the perpetually gloomy, detached stoic. I am not such a character, but I would not condemn a personality of that sort. He is erring on the side of the far lesser transgression. And, when he does laugh, I know it to be genuine, and can thus gain a better understanding of his personality and an improved trader relationship with that individual.

In intellectual debates, the use of biting humor is to be strongly discouraged. Mr. Perigo has, in this article, presented the characteristic methodology of the archetype I refer to as the "fanatic." I shall counter with a representation of my own, of an extremely civil debate I recently had on the topic of abortion. It will demonstrate the characteristic methodology of the archetype I dub the "rational argumentator." Expect it soon under the heading: "Schieder v. Stolyarov: An Abortion Debate."

I am
G. Stolyarov II
Editor-in-Chief, The Rational Argumentator
Proprietor, The Rational Argumentator Online Store
Author, Eden against the Colossus
Chief Administrator, Chicago Methuselah Foundation Fund
Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917 


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Post 19

Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:54pmSanction this postReply
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I'm definitely going to need some ground rules before I convert to such a somber state of being.  Therefore, I would appreciate it if our advocates of "The Rare Laugh" would lay out, in list format, occasions when it's okay to:

1. Make a joke.
2. Laugh at a joke.

Further, I would like to know whether it's a condemnable offense to:

1. Not laugh at a joke when the occasion is correct and the joke is appropriate.
2. Laugh at something you find funny, appropriately, and then realize it isn't that funny but don't officially and publicly rescind that laugh.
3. Find something secretly funny, like an obscene sentence or lyric or dialogue, and not seek penance from whomever it is that decides what we are allowed to laugh at.

In All Serious-ity

Dolorous J   : (

Wait.  I just realized....I don't need people to tell me when to laugh, and what is or isn't funny.  And those who can't figure out why philosophical peers might enjoy cajoling, prodding, playfully insulting and generally laughing at each other, certainly don't make my list of "People I Should Listen To".  Whomever takes what I wrote above seriously and actually tries to tell me, solemnly, when I am allowed to laugh, will be the first entry on my "Ignore-Out-of-Sheer-Disgust" list.  Go ahead.  Tell me when it's okay to have fun.  I dare ya.

That was a fantastic article, LP.  I laughed and laughed and laughed.



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