RoR: Forum

Rachel, Where is that "most inappropriate" article. I have not read it and would like to read it--during sex if possible.
Fred

Post 41

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 12:46pm

Thanks David, and just in case the picture is too small for you to notice the details, I wearing a Beethoven (my favorite composer and son's namesake) tee and a Ouray hat standing in front of the Welcome to Ouray sign in, where else, Ouray, Colorado.
Fred

Post 42

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 4:42pm

Coltontrail asked me:

"Also, would you laugh when you hear a Polish (or any ethnic) 'joke?' Why?"

I would laugh if it truly was funny -- sometimes almost against my will. The Polish jokes, which came thick and fast for a while, were terribly funny. I have a coffee mug which says, on the outside: Polish Mug. When one looks inside, one discovers that that's where the handle is.

I found the Polish jokes almost as funny as many Jewish jokes.

As to why I'd laugh, see Arthur Koestler's THE ACT OF CREATION. He has a brilliant discussion of humor, and of what makes something funny. . . Maybe I'll write an article on it.

Post 43

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 4:47pm

Please do!

Post 44

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 4:47am

Lindsay is mostly right-on in his analysis of this actually fairly important topic. And this is just the sort of article and subject you can't find at ARI or TOC, so it's wonderful to see.

Nietzsche once said "Who can laugh, and be uplifted?" And some of history's best reasonist thinkers, such as Epicurus and Diderot, were sometimes known as "the laughing philosopher." They also say (as mentioned above) "laughter is the best medicine."

Still, it's important not to get too slap-happy or silly and giddy here. It is possible to overdo all this laughter stuff. (The only exceptions are when watching 'The Simpsons,' 'South Park' and 'Da Ali G Show.' Otherwise, folks: Wipe that stupid smirk off your face this instant! ;-))

I think it's worth noting here that no-one should chuckle away mindlessly or guffaw at something not truly humorous. That just isn't the rational way. And definitely nobody wants to artificially force himself into the world of phony, contrived, controlled, political-style laughter a la Bill Clinton sitting at some banquet table on stage. Far worse is the realm of all those dreadful, lifeless, "beautific," preacher-style smiles a la Jerry Falwell and Jim Baker. The grim, overserious, mirthless world of "god" makes for one hell of a fake, plastic, gargoyle smile!

Post 45

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 1:43pm

Ms. Branden, Mr. Stolyarov,

I did a quick search on Norman Cousins and came across this article from National Council Against Health Fraud:

http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/cousins.html

coaltontrail

Post 46

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 2:01pm

All of you should be happy to hear the news that upon reading Linz's article, I have decided to no longer retain my anus, or in other words I will no longer be anal rententive.

bon jour

Pianoman

PS Like I've had experience retaining an anus before.
PPS My apologies to those of you with good taste. I'm sure you do taste well. :)

Post 47

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 5:24pm

Barbara Branden wrote: "I would laugh if it truly was funny -- sometimes almost against my will. The Polish jokes, which came thick and fast for a while, were terribly funny. I have a coffee mug which says, on the outside: Polish Mug. When one looks inside, one discovers that that's where the handle is."

Ms. Branden, my problem with ethnic jokes is that the underlying premise is collectivist: Polish (Jews/Sikhs/whatever) are stupid/incompetent. I think it fundamentally does not differ from the statement "Blacks are inferior to whites.' Of course, one could argue that former is more benevolent in nature and is harmless. But, the fact is, at least in my understanding, there is no line between them. What do you think?

Thanks for the reference.

coaltontrail

Post 48

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 5:55pm

Coltontrail, I read the article you suggested. And please note that, while criticizing the idea that the mind may have power over the body, it states:

"The idea that we can control biology with our wills is so appealing that those who challenge the ideology are sometimes treated as if they had murdered Santa Claus. Some subdue their criticisms because they do not wish to be in the position of taking away the hope of terminally-ill patients. Neither do they want to induce a state of depression in the patient knowing that despair itself can cause a person to give up on life and perhaps die even sooner."

Note especially: ". . . despair itself can cause a person to give up on life and perhaps die even sooner."

What is this but a statement that at least in some circumstances, the mind (giving up on life) does control the body (die even sooner).

I am not suggesting, however, that Cousins was correct in saying that laughter -- and Vitamin C -- cured him. I simply do not know. But I think the possible influence of the mind on the body, and vice versa, need a great deal of scientific investigation, and cannot be rejected out of hand. Anecdotal evidence is not proof; but when the anecdotal evidence is vast, it is a reason to look further.

Post 49

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 6:02pm

Coltontrail,I know that my view of ethnic jokes is not at all politically correct, but I think that for the most part, ethnic jokes are so good-natured that it is not an insult to anyone to laugh at them.

I have never been insulted by Jewish jokes. In fact, I have laughed at a great many of them.

And I can't, offhand, think of any such jokes that are told or devised by people who actually are anti-Polish or anti-Jewish.The jokes are much too light-hearted to satisfy such people.

Post 50

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 6:09pm

I'm sure you all know it, but just in case...
A man came up to Mae West and said, "I have NEVER drank, smoked, had sex or danced, and tomorrow I am celebrating my 85 birthday".
to which Miss West reply, "How?"

Post 51

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 6:20pm

Mr. coaltron,

I realize that the question was not directed at me, but I feel compelled to add my 2 cents. I think that 'ethnic' jokes do have a significant line between them. Some are benevolent, some are not. Most ethinic jokes are exaggerations of actual tendencies, histories, and cultural variations of differeing people. As a minority, I can tell you that the degree to which an ethnic joke is benevolent (an exaggeration of actual behavior with the intent of 'irony') or malevolent (an exaggeration of actual behavior for the intent of demeaning or de-humanizing) is almosty wholly a matter of intent and degree. The intent is at times hard to discern (often not so hard to discern), and the degree of the exggeration is usually greater the more malevolent the intent.

Note that most ethnic jokes are made by persons of the very ethnicity that is the object of the joke - this is very telling. Like everything else in life - the value or lack of, the benevolence or lack of - a joke - is very contexual. Another factor not to be ignored is to take into context the culture of the person telling the joke. For a white American, a joke about Germans, Poles, or Italiens is a joke that includes himself as the object - thus the intent is not likely to be racist or demeaning in nature. The provincial racism that is prevelent n Europe does not speak in terms of being 'white' - it breaks that group down into sub-groups, thus a Polish or Jewish joke told by a German is not usually inclusive of his own sense of identitiy (emphasis on the word 'usually'), and thus far more likely to be malevolent in intent as oppossed to simple irony or exaggeration. Since intent in a matter such as this is nearly impossible to discern - I would say that telling an ethnic joke is always a risky proposition.

George W. Cordero

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/18, 6:23pm)

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/18, 6:26pm)

Post 52

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 6:42pm

Nice essay...

I find that I have to restrain myself when I find something funny, because I tend to have a laugh like a thunderclap. It just explodes out, and then I'm covering my mouth and looking around nervously.

Also, my humor is pretty "colorful"... I tend to bring up things in social circles that would make Oscar Wilde wince.

Post 53

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 8:03pm

Ms. Branden,
"I am not suggesting, however, that Cousins was correct in saying that laughter -- and Vitamin C -- cured him. I simply do not know. But I think the possible influence of the mind on the body, and vice versa, need a great deal of scientific investigation, and cannot be rejected out of hand. Anecdotal evidence is not proof; but when the anecdotal evidence is vast, it is a reason to look further."

Exactly. But the onus of proof is on the one who is proposing it. From what I read at the UCLA pages it seems that they are making an effort at investigating it scientifically.

As a scientist, your first posting on this 'rang an alarm bell' (so to speak) and I wanted to know a little more about the problem.

Interestingly, an example of the 'effectiveness' of anecdotal evidence alone in perpetuating a myth is homeopathy.

coaltontrail

Post 54

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 8:28pm

Ms. Branden, Mr. Cordero,

"Coltontrail,I know that my view of ethnic jokes is not at all politically correct, but I think that for the most part, ethnic jokes are so good-natured that it is not an insult to anyone to laugh at them."

I think Mr. Cordero's argument justifies the above: that the context and intent matter. I like it, but need to think (the last resort!).

coaltontrail

Post 55

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:34pm

Re: ethnic jokes...I think that they are often used to undermine the collectivist view of the world--not to support it. Ethnic jokes (especially when told by those who are of the ethnicity that they are joking about) are a way to say, "See how silly it is to group us all together like that?!?"

I also think that "ethnic" (and I'm going to stretch the term here pretty soon) jokes are told most often near borders and/or by people who don't fall easily into one ethnic category or another, again with the intended purpose of undermining the collectivist position.

For example (stretching begins now)...I live in Minnesota, but only about 50 miles from the Iowa border. We tell a lot of Iowa jokes. In Northern MN they don't. When we make fun of Iowans, we know that everything we say about them could easily be said about us (because really, 50 miles doesn't count as much of a separation in the midwest), so what we're really making fun of is the whole *idea* that people can be reduced to one-size-fits-all, cardboard cutout stereotypes. It's just not true, we know it, and we enjoy asserting our individuality through laughter.

Jana

Post 56

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:51pm

Here's one from the movie "Bicentennial Man":

What did the Buddhist say to the hot dog vendor?

Post 57

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:53pm

Andre,

You know, I've never seen "Da Ali G. Show"...

Post 58

Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:06pm

One thing I've noticed about ethnic jokes: if you laugh at them, typically that means a part of you is acknowledging a certain "truth" that you yourself have perceived regarding the characteristic of the ethnic group being mocked. These stereotypes might have been reinforced by the media, or by your own personal experiences with members of that group.

Post 59

Friday, August 20, 2004 - 2:37am