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Post 40

Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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Brendan:
So how does the lion know that the zebra makes good eating, or that the old and sick are the easiest kills? Surely there is some rudimentary classification going on: “this-animal-good-eat”, “that-animal-easy-kill”. Or is this just a matter of “occasional non-integrative association”.

Ed:
Hmpf! You think the lion's actions are hard to explain?! Well, I can one-up you there. What about the "trap-door" spider, huh?? I have seen a video of this amazing spider, who ...

1. finds a hole in the ground that is large enough to fit into
2. weaves a spider-web man-hole, or trap-door, to cover the hole
3. gets down into the hole and pulls the trap-door shut
4. waits for an unsuspecting "victim" to approach; all the while giggling under his breath at how ingenius his plan is (the giggling was not actually captured on the audio, perhaps that was just me)
5. and at the prime moment: barges out from under the door, yells "Gotcha, sucker!," and nabs his unsuspecting victim (again, the audio was unclear at this point - perhaps those words were merely my reaction)

Brendan, add to this that - "[e]ach spider engineers a style of web characteristic of its species and constructs the web perfectly on the first try." - and there we perfection from the git-go; which we can either interpret as the wisdom of knowing what's best, or we can take the Ockham challenge and chalk it up as unthinking instinct.

Brendan, I haven't even brought up the ants who reach across a small ridge or chasm, not to cross it themselves, but merely to allow the other ants to cross it, while walking over their outstretched bodies; the notorious "ant-bridge" - which begs of physics knowledge, foresight, and planning (they build bridges like we build bridges; to cross otherwise uncrossable caverns).

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Brendan:
And in what way is that different from your example of the infant’s implicit concept of human – “large things that feed me when I cry; warm, moving things etc”?

Ed:
Both the lion and the infant can successfully differentiate objects perceptually, and they will react to those differentiations. There may be little difference between them until the first object baptism (as in naming) ignites the potentiality in the infant's mind. I do not know how early this occurs. However, it most definitely precedes the onset of the audible word "mama" from the baby's mouth (often the first word). This could be checked by saying mama and watching the reaction of a baby (if the baby turns toward its mother twice out of every three attempts perhaps?). Much of this is admittedly hypothetical.

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Brendan:
Ed: “You can't find a short-coming in one of them and then turn around and put the other on trial for it (as you did when you attacked concepts for not being both direct and immediate).”

If you’re referring to your final comment in post 32, I couldn’t follow what you were saying there, since I wasn’t intentionally attacking concepts for not being direct and immediate.

Ed:
Yes, I was referring to post 32.

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Brendan:
Whatever, you are claiming that perception is direct, but you have yet to make an argument for it.

Ed:
Brendan, an argument for this already exists, courtesy of my good friend and colleague, Mr. Reginald Firehammer. For a good time, click:

http://usabig.com/autonomist/articles/perception.html

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/14, 10:52am)


Post 41

Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

"More importantly, didja' like my short story about dings and such?"

I couldn't resist it. I had heard it somewhere else but I think your version was longer. Thanks.

Another thought on Kant. Most of the time I think of him as leading to the 21st century. What if we think of him as an end? At least of the Modern Period. This semester I'm teaching Modern Philosophy from Hobbes to Kant. In some cases we seem to get progress. Think for example of going from Hobbes' authoritarian politics to Kant's human rights view with man as an end-in-himself. After reading the Leibniz' Monodology, (which we are on now) I yearn for a critique of these thought castles in the air. But maybe that's me. Makes me think of Rand's statement about existence, all you can say of it is--It is.

Fred

Post 42

Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Fred, you are hereby invited to click the Firehammer/perception link above.  You, especially, may have "a good time" with it.

Ed


Post 43

Friday, October 15, 2004 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:”…chalk it up as unthinking instinct.”

Well done, Ed. In one half-sentence you’ve solved all the conundrums of the natural world. Scientists can now pack their bags and take a long vacation. Since it’s all down to unthinking instinct, there’s no need to investigate possible reasons for animal behaviour, what sort of internal mechanisms – hormonal, chemical etc – may be involved. We can just dump all that stuff in to the category of unthinking instinct, and, er, stop thinking about it.

Fact is, spiders don’t get it “perfectly first time”. Sure, the overall plan of the web is
programmed into them by evolution, but each spider incorporates “guesswork” and “choices” into making their individual webs. So it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that spiders do some sort of low level “thinking”. If you deny that spiders make some very minimal choices, the alternative is the Cartesian notion of animals as mere machines. I don’t think that’s a viable hypothesis.

As for the vaunted distinction between “instinctual” animals and “conceptual” humans, biological programming exists in humans too. For example, the body of a first-time mother "knows" how to deliver a baby, while the mother also acts on guesswork and choices in the delivery. 

And what about most men’s reaction to Jennifer Aniston standing perky in a T-shirt: considered and thoughtful appraisal, or something a bit more instinctive?

I think it’s futile to try to draw the distinction between animals and humans along an “instinctual/conceptual" divide. The difference isn’t about mechanisms per se, it’s about how those mechanisms operate. Human beings have a complexity and self-awareness that sets them apart from animals, even though we also exhibit many animal traits.

Ed: “Both the lion and the infant can successfully differentiate objects perceptually…”:

So we agree that there might be some sort of classification going on in the lion’s brain. We also agree that despite this similarity, human consciousness is of an entirely different kind to animal consciousness.

Just for you, Ed I checked out Mr Firehammer’s essay. He’s got a nice writing style, and makes a good critique of the Objectivist theory of perception, especially the notion that the infant’s first few months are merely a buzz of sensations.

After all, if consciousness requires an object, and the infant experiences only fleeting sensations, this implies the infant lacks human consciousness. I find this hard to believe, given that the infant has some pretty vital survival requirements during this period, such as identifying the nipple. (Fans of Jennifer Aniston will appreciate the value of this human ability.)

Regi also points out that the transition from sensations to percepts is left unexplained. One day, it’s a buzzing confusion, the next, we find not only integrated percepts but implicit axiomatic concepts as well. To get from there to here Rand is implicitly relying on a priorism, all the while denying she’s doing any such thing.

This is all well and good, but while Regi suggests traditional direct realism as a corrective to standard Objectivist perception theory, he doesn’t actually defend it. He just thinks it’s a good idea if Objectivists were to adopt this position.

A defence of direct realism need not be complicated. Pick a standard example – the bent-stick illusion will do – and consider: the stick looks bent; the stick is straight. Reconcile, while firmly maintaining that we perceive objects just as they are.

Brendan


Post 44

Friday, October 15, 2004 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan, fine. I will take the Brendanian challege:
-----------
"A defence of direct realism need not be complicated. Pick a standard example – the bent-stick illusion will do – and consider: the stick looks bent; the stick is straight. Reconcile, while firmly maintaining that we perceive objects just as they are. "
-----------

Here goes something! ...

The stick, put into water, appears all bent out of shape. This implies one of 3 things:

1. the stick becomes bent (it has no definite identity; which is self-refuting)

2. our mental stand-in for reality - our internal representation of it - becomes bent (sense-data are veridical, but the object of our awareness is not the real object, but merely a stand-in; which is susceptible to refutation via modus tollens)

3. our awareness as such - and not the object of our awareness - becomes bent (decisively validated via scientific discovery of refraction - option 2 becomes refuted via modus tollens)

Nuff' said,

Ed

Post 45

Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
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Ed: “…our awareness as such - and not the object of our awareness - becomes bent…”

So how is this different from: the stick looks bent, the stick is straight? You’ve just paraphrased the original problem and presented it as a solution. If “awareness as such” is bent, while the object remains straight, there’s a clear disjunction between appearance and reality, which is just what the problem is all about.

In what way does your formulation support direct rather than an indirect awareness, and where does modus tollens fit in? Also, the issue isn’t resolved by appeal to refraction, since we both agree that refraction accounts for the bent-stick illusion. Our difference is over what this means for theories of perception.

Brendan


Post 46

Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan:
Ed: “…our awareness as such - and not the object of our awareness - becomes bent…”

So how is this different from: the stick looks bent, the stick is straight?

Ed:
Our concern with whether or not the stick actually is straight, stems from our concern to accurately discern the identity of the stick (the what-it-is-to-be of the stick). This identity is the thing that skeptics say we can't know. Instead, they claim that we're not so equipped that we can know identity. They cite various reasons or objections (no-identity nominalism, indirect perception, etc).

I know what sticks are, and why they will always appear a certain way under water, and yet they will another way out of water. I've used my ability to discover the identity of things in order to make this real advance in knowledge (note: real advances in knowledge are precluded by all skeptical theories).

After making all this advance (because my mind works and it has allowed me to know reality), I can explain why things appear one way from one perspective, and other ways from other perspectives - I have objective knowledge of reality.

Getting back to the original issue here (does our mind really work in discovering identities?), the solution to the bent-stick problem needs to be viewed intentionally. When speaking of knowledge, we must always account for a knowing agent - and, to this knower, various things will be a priori and various things will be a posteriori (the issue of what is a priori is an agent-relative issue - our a priori zones enlarge as we discover more identities).

The solution to the bent-stick conundrum then, involves the limitation of the a priori zone for the agent. The paradox is only a paradox for those with limited knowledge of reality (limited a priori zones).

Here's the rub: these agents (the ones with limited a priori zones) don't realize that there are actually 2 identities in the bent-stick illusion example (water & stick) - not merely one identity (stick) - for them to prove that they can know. This is really no problem because with more contact with reality, they will enlarge their a priori zones and these problems of "how can I know reality" disappear for them. The illusion of perception is actually an illusion of limited conceptual perspective, not limited perceptual perspective (it is only masquerading as a perception problem).

That we have progressed to this advanced point in knowledge (of now knowing the real identity of 2 things: water & stick) is a deathblow to the skeptic argument, which must now retreat and take refuge on even more solipsistic ground (our being able to explain reality proves them wrong). So here is the distilled solution to the bent-stick phenomenon (note: we've used unerring perception to find all this out):

1. Water is a certain thing and acts a certain way (and not in other ways)

2. One of the ways in which water acts is to bend light.

3. Bending light will appear to bend shapes, but this can be entirely accounted for

4. Sticks are certain things that act in certain ways (and not others)

5. Sticks are types of things which will appear bent when put under water (due to #3)

6. Sticks are types of things which will appear more straight when taken out of water

Brendan, this is all apriori for me (now that I know about the identities of water and sticks). I know how the world works because I've used my mind to discover the identities in it - and I am much more fit for dealing with this reality (because I know so much more about it).


Brendan:
In what way does your formulation support direct rather than an indirect awareness, and where does modus tollens fit in?

Ed:
First, refraction does prove that you directly perceive the environment. It's just that "the environment" (and not your perception of it) has been incorrectly limited in order to make a logic puzzle.

Let's make a distinction between the mode of perception and the object of perception. The mode of perception is the optic array of light in the environment (this is what "bends"). The object of perception is the stick. You see, it is not the object of perception that changes, it is the mode that does. All we have to do is account for the differences in this mode and then pat ourselves on the shoulder for perceiving reality directly. Sticks are that which appear bent to the human eye when placed under water.

Modus tollens comes in when we see the problem as being either a problem of mode or a problem of object (object of the mind). Once we see it is a problem of mode (not a real problem of mode; just unaccounted for effects of environment), we re-run the paradox with this in mind. Here is a distilled version of the solution.

1. underwater bending is either due to a fundamental disjunct between perceptual power and reality (or perceptual power and the environment) OR it is in fact due to an overzealous limitation of what we consciously hold to "be" the environment (we actively ignore that water is part of that environment we are perceiving, part of the "that which" which we are picking up via perception)

2. discoveries in light refraction have proved that we pick up exactly what is in the environment (we just can't make assumptions as to how things are "supposed" to appear through different mediums)

3. indirect perception theories claim we don't pick up exactly what is in the environment

4. it follows by modus tollens (using 3 and 2 as premises) that indirect perception theory is false



Brendan:
Also, the issue isn’t resolved by appeal to refraction, since we both agree that refraction accounts for the bent-stick illusion. Our difference is over what this means for theories of perception.

Ed:
Brendan, as I said above, because conundrums like these are agent-relative (they take into account the agent's a priori zone), the only way that they fly in the first place is if we "forget what we know" and try to regress back to their lower level, or body, of a priori knowledge.

Post 47

Monday, October 18, 2004 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
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Brendan, a synopsis of the above might be my proposition that "[t]he illusion of perception is actually an illusion of limited conceptual perspective, not limited perceptual perspective (it is only masquerading as a perception problem)."

Here's Rand on this exact issue: " ... his organs of perception are physical and have no volition, no power to invent or distort ... the evidence they give him is an absolute, but his mind must learn to understand it, his mind must discover the nature, the causes, the full context of his sensory material, his mind must identify the things that he perceives."

The main thrust of this argument is the discovered necessity to be careful about what you claim that you are perceiving (your judgements about your perceptions), and the discovered trivial-ness about any concern with what it is that you actually are perceiving. You actually are perceiving reality as it actually is - all quirks in the mode or medium of perception can be worked out with science (the object of perception is not interpreted, the identity of things perceived is).

One more thing Brendan: I anticipate that you'll have "trouble" with my propositions about expanding a priori zones. I became aware of this aspect of reality after reading about the Morning Star = Evening Star = Planet Venus paradox over at Carolyn Ray's website. Here's a summary of how it went:

1. early humans thought there were 2 stars (Morning & Evening)

2. later humans discovered that it had been one star all along (the planet Venus)

3. after the a posteriori "discovering" of the facts of reality, these later humans were operating with more in their a priori zone

4. hence, they did not continually rely on a posteriori evidence input - they had found the identity of what was both the Morning Star & the Evening Star

Ed

Post 48

Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 2:06pmSanction this postReply
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Ed: ..”[t]he illusion of perception is actually an illusion of limited conceptual perspective, not limited perceptual perspective (it is only masquerading as a perception problem)…

The main thrust of this argument is the discovered necessity to be careful about what you claim that you are perceiving (your judgements about your perceptions), and the discovered trivial-ness about any concern with what it is that you actually are perceiving.”

In the above you are telling us to doubt the plain evidence of the senses, on the grounds that what is present to our sense is not in fact so present, or at least not in the way it appears.

Don’t get me wrong here.  I fully appreciate the argument you are making: that the bent-stick example and other puzzles of perception are just reality “at work”, as it were. What I find wanting is the conclusion: that the senses give us direct contact with objects, just as they are, “in themselves”. What that means is that the perception of qualia – size, shape etc – is at one and the same time the direct perception of the object, because the object is nothing more or less than its qualia. In the bent-stick illusion, this is clearly not the case.

So when you make a distinction between mode of perception and object of perception, your conclusion is that “sticks are that which appear bent to the human eye when placed under water”. That’s very true, but it merely repeats the original problem -- the stick looks bent; the stick is straight – and is therefore a concession to indirect realism.

You admit as much when you interpose the agent and various judgements between the perception and the object. In doing so, you are conceding indirect realism, which is predicated on claims regarding agent perspective and the mind’s interpretation of sense-data.

This is the paradox that all direct realists must eventually own up to: they must deny what is plainly before their eyes in order to preserve their theory.

Re modus tollens, your premise 2 -- that we perceive “exactly what is in the environment” -- is flawed, in that there are many aspects of the environment – eg x-rays --- that our senses do not perceive. The dispute is over the nature of what we perceive.

Re “expanding a priori zones”, I can only make a brief comment. In the case of the Morning and Evening Stars, the usual explanation is to make a distinction between sense and reference: Morning Star and Evening Star are different senses of the referent Venus.

In applying a priori understanding to the world in this way, you’re opting for a form of Rationalism, and if I’m not mistaken, it’s similar to Leibniz’s notion that all truths are ultimately analytic truths. Anyone whose has ever wondered about rationalistic elements in Objectivism need look no further for evidence.

Brendan


Post 49

Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan:
In the above you are telling us to doubt the plain evidence of the senses, on the grounds that what is present to our sense is not in fact so present, or at least not in the way it appears.

Ed:
Brendan, a definition of perception is in order:

1a: a direct pickup of the consistencies (invariants) of the environment over time
1b: the faculty that accomplishes the relational phenomenon: awareness

Now Brendan, with this definition in mind, doesn't the criticism you've projected onto me ("that what is present to our sense is not in fact so present ... in the way it appears") become unsupported? I suspect you are merely holding me to the dreaded diaphanous standard; claiming that I need to justify perception according to that standard. But, as I've shown with the bent-stick illusion (a 2-identity problem masquerading as a 1-identity problem), the foibles can all be entirely accounted for, and that we do obtain direct knowledge of reality - just not always in nice, neat packages with name-tags on them).

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Brendan:
I fully appreciate the argument you are making: that the bent-stick example and other puzzles of perception are just reality “at work”, as it were. What I find wanting is the conclusion: that the senses give us direct contact with objects, just as they are, “in themselves”.

Ed:
Brendan, direct contact with things "in themselves" is a contradiction (it ascribes a complete lack of identity to consciousness). Using Kant's pseudo-concept here is simply misguided. I will make myself more clear here by appeal to JJ Gibson's Ecological Theory of Direct Perception. Here's relevant thought paraphrased:

Things perceived are not simply phenomenal qualities of subjective experience.
Things perceived are not simply physical properties of things as now conceived by physical science.
Instead, they are ecological, in the sense that they are the properties of the environment relative to an animal.

source: http://www.huwi.org/gibson/prelim.php

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Brendan:
What that means is that the perception of qualia – size, shape etc – is at one and the same time the direct perception of the object, because the object is nothing more or less than its qualia. In the bent-stick illusion, this is clearly not the case.

Ed:
Brendan, as I said above (paraphrasing Gibson's thought), phenomenal qualities or physical properties (qualia) cannot be assumed to entirely account for our perception, which is not a static photographic picture, but instead, a 3-D interactive movie.

Also (regarding the stick), there is no a priori constraint on how one thing (a stick) is supposed to appear when it is immersed into another thing (water), as they each have their own identity - for us to discover with more inquiry. You appear to be requiring omniscience as a standard here (we have to know everything, before we can know anything).

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Brendan:
So when you make a distinction between mode of perception and object of perception, your conclusion is that “sticks are that which appear bent to the human eye when placed under water”. That’s very true, but it merely repeats the original problem -- the stick looks bent; the stick is straight – and is therefore a concession to indirect realism.

You admit as much when you interpose the agent and various judgements between the perception and the object. In doing so, you are conceding indirect realism, which is predicated on claims regarding agent perspective and the mind’s interpretation of sense-data.

Ed:
See directly above.

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Brendan:
Re modus tollens, your premise 2 -- that we perceive “exactly what is in the environment” -- is flawed, in that there are many aspects of the environment – eg x-rays --- that our senses do not perceive. The dispute is over the nature of what we perceive.

Ed:
Fine then. Reword premise 2 to: "we perceive the exact properties of the environment relative to us - ie. the ambient optic array that we use to guide our action in the environment over time"

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Brendan:
Re “expanding a priori zones”, I can only make a brief comment. In the case of the Morning and Evening Stars, the usual explanation is to make a distinction between sense and reference: Morning Star and Evening Star are different senses of the referent Venus.

Ed:
Okay, but do you know the real identity of the Morning Star, or not, Brendan? How about the Evening Star? Do you know its real identity, too? Or do you need more a posteriori experience in order to make such a bold claim about actually knowing the identity of these "two" objects of discussion?

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Brendan:
In applying a priori understanding to the world in this way, you’re opting for a form of Rationalism, and if I’m not mistaken, it’s similar to Leibniz’s notion that all truths are ultimately analytic truths. Anyone whose has ever wondered about rationalistic elements in Objectivism need look no further for evidence.

Ed:
Leibniz, Shneebniz. I've got half a monad that says you ARE mistaken! Although I have to admit that necessary truth is that which could not be otherwise - do you agree with this qualified claim, Brendan?

Post 50

Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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Ed: “1a: a direct pickup of the consistencies (invariants) of the environment over time
1b: the faculty that accomplishes the relational phenomenon: awareness.”

Earth to Ed, too much static. I’m sorry, old chap, you’re losing me. Plain English please.

Ed: “Instead, [things perceived] are ecological, in the sense that they are the properties of the environment relative to an animal.”

If you mean the observer perceives from its particular perspective, I agree. But that’s normally understood to support indirect theories.

Ed: “Brendan, as I said above…phenomenal qualities or physical properties (qualia) cannot be assumed to entirely account for our perception, which is not a static photographic picture, but instead, a 3-D interactive movie.

Again, “interactive” suggests a contribution by the subject, that is, indirect perception.

Ed: “Fine then. Reword premise 2 to: "we perceive the exact properties of the environment relative to us - ie. the ambient optic array that we use to guide our action in the environment over time”

So is the stick really bent, or does it just appear to be?

Ed: “Okay, but do you know the real identity of the Morning Star, or not…Or do you need more a posteriori experience in order to make such a bold claim about actually knowing the identity of these "two" objects of discussion?

Again, I don’t follow, Ed. The fact that the Morning and Evening Stars are two senses of the same referent is an empirical discovery, and therefore known a posteriori. Why is that a bold claim?

Ed: “Although I have to admit that necessary truth is that which could not be otherwise - do you agree with this qualified claim, Brendan?”

A necessary truth is by definition one that could not be otherwise, so of course I agree. As an addendum, please abandon the notion that indirect theories necessarily imply scepticism.

Brendan


Post 51

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
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Fred wrote in post #7 (I just noticed it):
As for making sure "Fred reads them" you reveal once again your ignorance. I teach PWNI every semester. In addition to the title essay, I also teach "Faith and Force" and "Causality vs Duty." As to the latter I have written an entire chapter, chapter five, on it in my book AYN RAND, OBJECTIVISTS AND THE HISTORY OF PHILOSOPHY.


Sorry, but I was under the impression that you did not read them, at least not thoroughly. During the Advanced Seminar discussion of your paper, I had a copy of PWNI and kept referring to it and reading from it, but as I recall you did not refer to the book even to refute me.
Anyway, why didn't you correct me when I indicated in post #31 of "Kant Can't" that

Your analysis of "Kant versus Sullivan" indicates that you probably did not read the two preceding essays in Rand's PHILOSOPHY WHO NEEDS IT? 
In any case, I apologize. Couldn't believe someone who studied PWNI would still adore Kant that much.

-- Michelle



Post 52

Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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I didn't intend to start a discussion of my response to Fred's paper, but Glenn Fletscher's post #6 deserves a reply. Glenn wrote:
Fred’s main point, as I understand him, is that subsequent philosophers didn’t use Kant’s ideas.  They misunderstood him.  So, it does make a difference “whether Kant meant ‘belief’ or ‘thought’” to Fred’s argument.

In the beginning of my response to Fred's paper I said that Kant *did* use the German word "Glauben" which means "faith" or "belief."  He did *not* use the German word "Gedanke" which means "thought" in the sense of "conceiving of" or "imagining" that which cannot be known. Fred claims that Kant really meant to say "Gedanke," but somehow said "Glauben."  Well, as long as he said "Glauben," subsequent philosophers simply took him at his word.

I continued to say that the secular "conceiving of" or "imagining" that which cannot be known would not have changed the fundamental meaning of what Kant said by using "faith" or "belief." Essentially, he said that there is a realm beyond knowledge. Whether this realm is founded on faith or on "conceiving of what cannot be known" is really inconsequential. Once the possibility of such a realm is accepted, all hell breaks loose.

I admit that my response is not as clear as it could be, so I hope I clarified it here. 



Post 53

Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 4:32amSanction this postReply
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Fred - You wrote:
I teach PWNI every semester. In addition to the title essay, I also teach "Faith and Force" and "Causality vs Duty."
1. Do you teach the chapters in PWNI which discuss Kant as being wrong?
2. Do you teach these chapters in conjunction with texts from Kant to show how and why they are wrong? 
3. Do you teach the other chapters in PWNI as being right or as being wrong?

Thank you,

Michelle


Post 54

Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 3:00pmSanction this postReply
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Michelle,

My quote makes clear, or at least I thought it did, what I teach from PWNI. Let me quote myself:

In addition to the title essay, I also teach "Faith and Force" and "Causality vs Duty."

That's it. I only have time for those three chapters.

"Do you teach these chapters in conjunction with texts from Kant to show how and why they are wrong?"

No, Kant is just too hard for an intro course. I use 4 dialogues of Plato, Descartes Meditations, Locke's 2nd Essay and 3 essays from Rand's PWNI. When I transition from Locke to Rand  I give a simple summary of Kant from Rand's point of view. This way, they have some idea of what she is talking about.

"3. Do you teach the other chapters in PWNI as being right or as being wrong?"

I teach all the thinkers in the same way. We read their works, talk about what they said and see if it stands up to reason.

Fred




Post 55

Sunday, November 7, 2004 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

Then you do not teach "From the Horse's Mouth" and "Kant and Sullivan."  I regard them as crucial in understanding Rand's perspective of Kant. As I pointed out before, "Faith and Force" is best understood when read in sequence with these two articles.

Michelle


Post 56

Sunday, November 7, 2004 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
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Michelle,

You know I would love to teach the whole book, but I only have so much time, so I have to be highly selective. The opening essay is great because it asks and answers a question that is on the lips of some of the more interested students, viz., Who needs philosophy? The FAITH AND FORCE chapter is good because it deals with the issue of faith which comes up quite a bit while we're doing Descartes and Locke, two Christians. It also compliments the good stuff Locke has to say against the initiation of physical force. And finally, in the CAUSALITY VS DUTY, we get to do some ethics, contrasting Kant and Rand. They get a lot of metaphysics and epistemology with Plato and Descartes, and a chunk of Politics with Locke, so I like to finish with a little ethics. Just a little because at the school in question I offer a whole course of Ethics in which my Rand text is VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS.
I disagree with you about the Kant vs Sullivan. It has little to do with Kant and more to do with Feyerabend and I just don't have time to do even the smallest of introductions to the philosophy of science.
Anyway, those of some of the reasons for my choices.

Fred




Post 57

Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
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Brendan, I'm back now.

Ed: “1a: a direct pickup of the consistencies (invariants) of the environment over time
1b: the faculty that accomplishes the relational phenomenon: awareness.”

Earth to Ed, too much static. I’m sorry, old chap, you’re losing me. Plain English please.

Perception is the direct pick-up of matter (e.g. olfactory chemo-reception) or energy (e.g., visual reception of photons) in our environment.

 

Ed: “Instead, [things perceived] are ecological, in the sense that they are the properties of the environment relative to an animal.”

 

If you mean the observer perceives from its particular perspective, I agree. But that’s normally understood to support indirect theories.

But the particularity of perspective doesn't discount direct perception -- which was the point that you're intending to allude to when you bring up how particularity has been historically used in order to support indirect theories. Again, you're falling into Kant's blind-because-your-eyes-perceive-in-a-certain-way trap. Take 2 guys and a red balloon, for instance.

 

One guy is color-blind and talks about a gray-appearing balloon. The other guy isn't and speaks of it as red. According to the indirect theory, they're "seeing" different things (different sense data or qualia) -- but they're not seeing different things when they look at that one-and-the-same balloon (they're seeing the same thing, differently).

The balloon has identity and so does our perceptual apparati. Both identities need be taken into account when explaining someone's perception of the matter and energy in the world.

 

Ed: “Brendan, as I said above…phenomenal qualities or physical properties (qualia) cannot be assumed to entirely account for our perception, which is not a static photographic picture, but instead, a 3-D interactive movie.

Again, “interactive” suggests a contribution by the subject, that is, indirect perception.

See above.

 

Ed: “Fine then. Reword premise 2 to: "we perceive the exact properties of the environment relative to us - ie. the ambient optic array that we use to guide our action in the environment over time”

 

So is the stick really bent, or does it just appear to be?

It just appears to be (but you knew that, didn't you, Brendan?).

 

Ed: “Okay, but do you know the real identity of the Morning Star, or not…Or do you need more a posteriori experience in order to make such a bold claim about actually knowing the identity of these "two" objects of discussion?

 

Again, I don’t follow, Ed. The fact that the Morning and Evening Stars are two senses of the same referent is an empirical discovery, and therefore known a posteriori. Why is that a bold claim?

All discoveries are, by definition, a posteriori. However, once discovered and integrated, the knowledge about the fact in question becomes a priori. Once one comes to know that the 2 things that one has perceived have all along been one thing, no further experience is required to identify those 2 different perceptions of the self-same thing. At this point in our knowledge accrual, we can "pull away" from further experience and arrive at new truths about old things perceived (by mere analysis).

 

Ed: “Although I have to admit that necessary truth is that which could not be otherwise - do you agree with this qualified claim, Brendan?”

 

A necessary truth is by definition one that could not be otherwise, so of course I agree. As an addendum, please abandon the notion that indirect theories necessarily imply scepticism.

To see how indirect perception necessarily leads to solipsism, go here.

 

Ed



Post 58

Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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A good book on  this is David Kelley's Evidence of the Senses.....

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