RoR: Forum

I've already said to Mr Cresswell privately, & have no hesitation in saying it publicly - this is as excellent a piece on such matters as I've read anywhere by anyone. Mr Cresswell confirms his place as foremost among Nem! :-)

I would plead with the apologists for headbanging caterwauling, before they succumb to their customary paroxysms of spluttering indignation, to take time to "chew" the message of this article. Instead of insisting that anyone who has moved beyond anger & rage & ugliness-for-ugliness'-sake (or never *was* arrested at such a point) subject himself to conscientious immersion in *your* torture, show willing to climb the heights of ecstasy that await if you liberate yourselves from your musical masochism.

It's instructive to observe how one-way the recent traffic has been. Ecstasists such as Mr Kilbourne & Mrs Branden have declared their willingness (misguidedly in my view) to endure caterwauling in pursuit of artistic growth; I have seen no comparable willingness on the part of the headbangers to "endure" the great romantic classicists, the embodiments of the total passion for the total height. The headbangers are nothing if not militant in their masochism! Worse, they want to be sadists as well, inflicting the torture they so enjoy on unwilling victims!

For sure, chacun a son gout - each to his own. That's a given (though the headbangers always shriek as though someone who criticised their cacophony were proposing to *ban* it). But in these discussions, I assume we are all trying to shoot for the stars, not wallow in the ooze. Instead of taking offence at such a distinction & trying to rationalise their retardation, I would urge upon the caterwaulers the course of action they urge upon me - open your minds & your ears & your souls. I have heard your stuff & I despise it. I have nothing to gain from it. *You* have nothing to lose but your torment; you have a world of ecstasy to win.

Linz

Post 1

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 3:41am

Peter: What a cri de couer!!! Very, very well done. And Linz: Thanks for a terrific response. God knows the caterwaulers have no excuse today for not seeking out "the total height" - there are free downloadable Lanza recordings galore to choose from (see the news items) for starters.

Come on, you unrepentant caterwaulers - I challenge you to listen to Lanza's Recondita Armonia (on Opera-gems.com) or the equally sensational Improvviso (Grandi-Tenori.com), and then tell us that you're not blown away by the brilliance of a true vocal phenomenon.

Post 2

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 5:28am

"If...you’ve listened but not been moved to swing your hips – then your soul is just not ready to die!"

What a poetic statement, Peter. This was a very thought-provoking piece.

As a whole, your article makes me think of how I feel when I hear the sound of violins. I disappear to another place as my soul soars with each rising note, and I feel a sweep of uplifting emotion that is one of the purest senses of joy I know.

I will say, however, that Rush's "Tom Sawyer" can get me pretty close to that. It gives me such an adrenaline surge that I am ready to conquer the world. However, I think we are then comparing soul fulfillment (violins) to positive reinforcement (Rush).

What a way to start my morning. Thank you. :)

Post 3

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 5:33am

Linz said:

It's instructive to observe how one-way the recent traffic has been. Ecstasists such as Mr Kilbourne & Mrs Branden have declared their willingness (misguidedly in my view) to endure caterwauling in pursuit of artistic growth; I have seen no comparable willingness on the part of the headbangers to "endure" the great romantic classicists, the embodiments of the total passion for the total height. The headbangers are nothing if not militant in their masochism! Worse, they want to be sadists as well, inflicting the torture they so enjoy on unwilling victims!

Speaking as one of the SOLOists who has spoken up for some progressive rock in the recent threads, I must take particular objection to Linz's deeply insulting comment here. Far from being unwilling to experience romantic and classical music, I am a great fan of several such composers and operatic singers, and I believe several if not all of the other "headbangers" also enjoy some classical music. At least in my case, Linz and Derek are both aware of my music tastes. It is very ironic that some of the progressive bands (whom Linz places on a par with the likes of Slipknot) are themselves fans of classical composers! I seek the best, the most enriching, uplifting music. Whatever it's genre.

And Jen - Tom Sawyer is a terrific song :-) Always makes me think of Howard Roark!

MH

PS as to Peter's comments, I'm tempted to write an article of my own in response, if Linz'll publish it.

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 10/08, 5:38am)

Post 4

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 6:21am

deleted
(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:05pm)

Post 5

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 6:25am

deleted
(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:05pm)

Post 6

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 6:38am

deleted

(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:05pm)

Post 7

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 8:53am

Peter, I like what you are trying to say, overall it is very uplifting. I don't know if I like your comparisons, though, and a certain point continues to irritate me. You say Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters" cannot reach the soul the way Mozart's REQUIM can. I must insist the opposite, even if Metallica is not my preferred example. I think there is a strong element of projection involved in musical appreciation...and that it's not so much the particular music involved as it is what is being said, and how it is said, to who it is said. I like what you said abou music being food for the soul. But one man's pleasure, another man's poison...Certain birds can eat holly berries, if humans do, it's poison. Everyone has their own unique soul, and reasons for responding to music. I personally am bored to tears by the Requim, while Yes's "Awaken" touches my soul and fills me with energy and inspiration. Does that mean Mozart failed? No, it means it wasn't the food for me. It does not diminish his achievement, it just means I can't eat it. But in no way does it diminish the scope of my soul, or imply that I am impoverished. I eat well.

Linz....I don't know if you are implying all of us here, or just making a broad accusation, when you say that the defenders of rock do not extend the same consideration to other music as Barbara and James have. (Bravo to them, btw.)
But if we are all indicted..."your Honor, I Object!" The prosecutor clearly is trying to suppress evidence to the contrary.

Simply not true. Many of us are already familiar with opera, jazz, classical and actually LIKE it. My favorites:
"Rhapsody in Blue, Sibelius's Symphony No.5, and Carmina Burana.
(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/08, 10:39am)

Post 8

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 9:25am

"And if Wagner’s powerful piece is beyond the emotionally repressed..."

Hey Peter!

Where's your article how emotionally repressed Wagner really was?

Making misery and suffering into his personal "life" philosophy cannot be the representation of a man in touch with his true feelings. At least I hope it is not.

In a way, Wagner and Punk are imbued with the same spirit of nihilism.

If your music is never joyful, happy and optimistic it must be a reflection of that person’s mentality and general outlook on life. And that can't be healthy or life-affirming.

Post 9

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 9:25am

You know, as much as I want to perform "Brain Salad Surgery" on Mr. Perigo, I don't think he's too far gone. He has made the same passionate defenses for Marion Lanza that we cauterwalers make for our bands, and against the same accusations that he makes against rock. Ah, the irony. But I think he gets it, on some level. So go easy on him.

Besides, the image of him dancing to the BEE GEES at Coney Island offsets the attack dog stance, and since I consider SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER my shame album, he and I have that in common, at least.

Post 10

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 10:21am

I must first take issue with a few points in this article:

1. Creswell implies that rage, pain, anger and hurt are defining characteristics of the rock genre, and that to enjoy (any form of) rock music involves glorifying these emotions. This is false. It is true that some rock music is characterized by these emotions, but there is also rock music that expresses positive emotions and celebrates life. For example, show me the malevolent sense of life in Marvin Gaye's Let's Get it On. And is classical music not without examples of rage, pain, anger & hurt?!?!

2. Then there's this bit:

But I think in many ways much of rock music desensitises emotions, but it also desensitises our sensitivity to many of the musical places that rock music just doesn’t reach – to many of the places that could provide us with real emotional fuel. It’s hard to leap directly from hard rock to a jazz number to a classical piece (or vice versa) and then to listen to each on its own terms :

I don't agree, I think this is in fact a rationalization. As a semi-professional musician, I have played in a variety of ensembles including symphonic & concert bands, big bands, heavy metal/prog bands, chamber groups, jazz combos, R&B bands, and pit orchestras just to name a few. I have made mix tapes and CD's for myself which jump from Beethoven to Bela Fleck to Rush to Joe Henderson and so on. I simply don't see any inherent conflict with musical eclecticism - the important thing is to understand why you like what you like, and to evaluate each genre on its own terms.

With all that said, I think the overall message to be gleaned from this article is that limiting one's self to enjoying only rock music (and related styles) is to deny great opportunities for enrichment of the soul. And I couldn't agree more with that.

(Edited by Pete on 10/08, 11:38am)

Post 11

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 10:25am

Heck I love classical and rock. I guess I have no taste....oh wait, hooray for free will :-) My life is more the richer for embracing my values where I find them. Lindsay is perfectly withinin his rights to not listen to music he doesn't like, but ( in my opinion) to dismiss a genre (or genres) in there totality and blank out any good there may be with blanket statements is no more than irrational. I salute Barbara and others for there open and inquisitive minds. Perhaps they wont like what they find, but they'll look and listen before judging, and there judment, I feel assured, will be to the point rather than broad of sweep and narrow of reason.

Ethan.

PS Tom Sawyer is one of my favorites Jen, as well as Something for Nothing, Free Will, Roll the Bones, and Anthem.

Post 12

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 1:36pm

Thanks for the great article.

Post 13

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 10:29am

Talking about musical education, my 7 year old boy has been taken piano lesson for a year and half. He is now very much into music, specifically classic music. He'd read everything about composers and listen to the Classical music Radio station constantly. Music store is his favorite place to go, he'd just take musics from the shelf and play them. Once he begged me to buy Grieg's "Morning", saying "it's very sweet and I really want it." Currently, he has a clear preference for the older musics over the more contemporary ones, except perhaps Gershwin and Jazz.

I've been wondering, what could a 7 year old boy feel in the musics of the Masters of the Baroque, Classical, or Romantic eras? (Yes, my son knows who belongs to which "era" very well). What in those musics resonant so strongly with his inner emotions? And what kind of emotions does he have? I've seen him happy, compassionate, hurt, in pain, scared or even terrified (by the thunderstorms), but curiously I've never ever seen him angry or in a rage. I had thought this might be his defect. Or are those feeling (anger and rage) something people acquire later in life?

Post 14

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 3:49pm

Hong, without addressing the second part of your post, I just wanted to comment on what an amazing son you have. That he is able to develop such tastes at his age, and has the desire to acquire such extensive knowledge of music, is a credit to your parenting. His mind is obviously well-nourished, and yet he hungers for more. Well done.

Jennifer

Post 15

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 3:31pm

Linz whined,
"Instead of insisting that anyone who has moved beyond anger & rage & ugliness-for-ugliness'-sake (or never *was* arrested at such a point) subject himself to conscientious immersion in *your* torture, show willing to climb the heights of ecstasy that await if you liberate yourselves from your musical masochism."

I think Peter's opinion that AC/DC's "You Shook Me All Night Long" is about anger and rage is an excellent example of the unreliability of certain Objectivists' angry, tortured hermeneutics*. The ridiculous claim that rock music is primarily about rage, pain, anger and hurt is as absurd as claiming that classical music is about nothing but surrendering one's mind to God. (Should we avoid immersing ourselves in the arrested development and torture of leaning on Him forever and hoping that He'll forsake us never?)

Linz moaned,
"It's instructive to observe how one-way the recent traffic has been. Ecstasists such as Mr Kilbourne & Mrs Branden have declared their willingness (misguidedly in my view) to endure caterwauling in pursuit of artistic growth; I have seen no comparable willingness on the part of the headbangers to "endure" the great romantic classicists, the embodiments of the total passion for the total height."

I love classical music, and other rock fans who have contributed to these discussions have clearly expressed their appreciation for a wide variety of genres, including classical.

Linz ranted,
"But in these discussions, I assume we are all trying to shoot for the stars, not wallow in the ooze."

The music of Metallica, Yngwie Malmsteen and Rush is much closer to the greatness of Bach and Mozart than Peter Cresswell's architecture is to the greatness of Frank Lloyd Wright. Surely we shouldn't take offense at such a distinction. If Metallica, Malmsteen and Rush are "ooze," shouldn't "ecstasists" who reach for "total passion for the total height" be just as eager to denounce Peter's work as they are to waste a few years denouncing rock?

Linz raged,
"I would urge upon the caterwaulers the course of action they urge upon me - open your minds & your ears & your souls. I have heard your stuff & I despise it. I have nothing to gain from it. *You* have nothing to lose but your torment; you have a world of ecstasy to win."

I don't think I've ever felt or expressed as much rage as what Linz ~frequently~ expresses about other people's enjoyment of rock music. Let it go, Linz. You're not going to convince anyone to despise the art that inspires them.

Jonathan

* "Hermeneutics" means "methods of interpretation."

Post 16

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 7:42pm

Irfan,

You write, "I was until now merely mulling the possibility of writing an appreciation of Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony..." It is one of my favorites - and the one piece of music that best matches my own sense of life. Unfortunately, the best performance I know of, Georges Pretre on Angel, was so badly recorded you can hear the tape stretching. Pretre has a later recording, on Erato, but that one is well past his prime. I listen frequently to the Myng-Whun Chung recoding on Deutsche Grammophon, which is OK. But I have not had time to investigate newer recordings. Could you suggest some that are worth trying?

Post 17

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 9:22pm

Adam - The Zubin Mehta Los Angeles Philharmonic Saint-Saens Organ Symphony is wonderful, in my opinion. Mehta is often very uneven, but he is excellent in this recording. (The LA Philharmonic, under Essa Pekka Salonen is world class now. He is a great conductor, and has done some Mahler symphonies that have resulted in my hugging complete strangers...well, almost.)
I have ordered Rush and Yes cd's on recommendations on this site and will report back on my opinion.
A wonderful article, Peter. It is the freeing on inhibition and the conquering of fear that lets one open his heart and soul to true emotion. It has been a long time since I tried to listen to rock, so I feel strong enough again. My goal is to find just one piece or even part of a piece that is great. I sincerely hope I do, as I will be completely ready if I find it. There is nothing I like more than to discover something that truly enriches me emotionally.

Post 18

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 9:26pm

Jennifer,
Thanks for your kind words. Want to consider to have one of those little morons of your own? :)

In fact our family is very non-musical. We rarely listen to any music before my son started piano lesson. His teacher is classically trained though, and she is from Russia and have used Russian methods. But I still think my son's current musical preference is his own, not imposed by any of us. I am just happy that he's finally got out of his previous obsessions with Pokemons, Digimons, and Yu Gi O!

Post 19

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 10:11pm