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Post 20

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 12:47amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Alec, will check out the interview.

She seems to be elusive; no website, no email. Supposedly she came into Tower Records where I worked a few times, my manager claimed, and I always missed her. I've only seen her for a second in an MTV interview.
A coworker, who also worked at the University of the Arts, when I asked if she knew her, said, and I quote, "Yeah...she's a pain in my ass." And I've been told that she was a tough customer by a friend at a local video store. Normally I would condemn a rude customer to the 10th level of hell (which involves me on a soapbox rubbing their nose in their own filth), but if love is exception making...



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Post 21

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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Oh, mmm, Camille Paglia.

I don't think I'll surprise anyone here if I say that Paglia has been one of the "top ten" influences on my life.  Not "top five"- I simply ran into her at the wrong time in my own path,  But she has definitely had an influence upon my style and my choice of profession.

Having said that, I'm curiously very much of two minds about Paglia's theories and worldview.  On the one hand, her alternative history of art is simply fantastic.  Although I didn't recognize it at the time, she speaks very much in the erotic tradition of philosophy I now myself am a part of, even if her tone is a very ah... uniquely democratic adaption of that tradition, to say the least.  But anyway, Paglia's unveiling of the essentially sensuous nature of art, and her abstraction what Susan Sontag called the 'pornographic imagination' of Western intentionality is simply brilliant.  As is her intelligent and authentic exhilaration for Western art, certainly a vast improvement over conservative falsifying hagiography and mindless multicultist Euro-bashing.

Turning around again, however- as a philosopher and a feminist, I just can't swallow her gender essentialism.  Paglia isn't a patriarch- quite the contrary, and those who think she is are either more angry than careful (most feminists) or useful idiots who overestimate their power and cleverness (most conservative patriarchs).  Indeed, Paglia's stand on gender is essentially 'polarist'- she view the sexes as incarnating essential types (allowing for exceptions), but her conclusions of the implications do not fall within our heirarchical and moralized sexual categories, nor do her premises.  Actually, Paglia's premises are essentially in concurrence with Paganism's, and her specific conclusions on gender and social practice are in all primary respects identical with my own specialized tradition.  This makes me a bit uneasy, I confess- as a principled, Enlightenment feminist I simply cannot accept the stories of feminine and masculine essences.  Nevertheless, I speak with some fear and trembling that my own emotional experiences as a transgender woman (and one who will spend her life flooded with sex hormones), my theoretical speculations about the importance of philosophically inessential sex differences, and my own pracktical experience as a sexual professional, all too much conform to Paglia's theories and the wisdom of my own vocational spirituality.

Yet this mention of Paganism brings up something interesting I've noticed about Paglia, specifically, regarding feminism.  Camille Paglia's hostility towards feminism is well known, but I find it very interesting that while she sites in her scopes the concepts of gender equality or universalism, she directs most of her ridicule towards the characteristics of the opposite kind of feminists- what feminists call 'essentialist' feminism and libertarians call 'gender' feminism; I prefer the modifier 'cultural' (following Ellen Willis).

What I mean here is the "women's ways of knowing" variety of feminism, the eco-friendly, Earth-loving, pacifistic, communal, Goddess-worshipping feminism.  Now, Paglia puts out a great deal of smoke, heat, and noise despising this group, but if one can get through all the Pandemonium, the truth is there is very little to philosophically distinguish the two.  Both agree that there are masculine and feminine essences.  Both posit a liquid and earthen nurturing feminity in stasis, eternal, circular, and complete.  Both posit a fiery and spatial masculinity, hard and directional.  Both posit the essential difference between women and men and self-contained internal creativity vs. a metaphysically incomplete drive painfully demanding external creativity.  Both agree that civilization, specifically a rational, triumphant, imperial, cruel picture of Western civilization, is inescapably a male product.  All that they really differ on is which side they take.  For all of their protests, Mary Daly, Adrienne Rich, Margaret Atwood, "eco-feminism", "feminist standpoint theory", Lilith Fair, Indigo Girls, and the entire alternative woman-centered subculture really would agree with the line "If civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living in grass huts."  They just choose the side of the grass huts.

A great number of libertarians and their allies (i.e., Christina Hoff Sommers, Heterodoxy) have had a lot of fun laughing at Goddess-worshipping feminists.  But speaking seriously for a moment (as a Pagan with some very personal bitter cold ice towards actually existing cultural feminism), I don't think a lot of libertarians- who are used to looking exclusively at the abstract written history of philosophy books, realise the degree to which deep 'gender' feminism really is essentially a Pagan phenomena.  There was always a strong Pagan strain in the counterculture from which second-wave feminism emerged; one has only to read Tolkien or Huxley, but the original feminist movement was in many ways a rationalistic counterreaction against the counterculture's absorbtion of sexual essentialism into sexual liberation.  Simone de Beavoiur, Shulamith Firestone, even Ti-Grace Atkinson, were all chill rationalists and cultural modernists, much like libertarians in this respect.  This strain of feminism is not libertarian, but it is pro-Enlightenment.  Indeed, its primary accusation against the contemporary world has been that modernity is, to use Jurgen Habermas' phrase, an "incomplete project".

The cultural feminists are a very different variety, and libertarians usually do not understand them very well.  They are viewed as a consequence of postmodernism- and this has some truth in it, but it is more the case that cultural feminism and indeed a bit of multiculturalism itself is primarily a Pagan cultural movement- not antirealist so much as organicist and immanentist.  A few years back I spent a great deal of time reading cultural feminist writings, and it slowly dawned on me that what the grassroots writers- not the postmodern theorists, who are actually held in some disdain by most cultural feminists- mean by phrases such as 'women's ways of knowing' is not postmodern perspectivalism so much as a naturalization of the particulars of female experiences in sensation, perception, and socially situated conceptualization.  This is a very different affair, actually quite akin to premodern philosophy as described by Strauss and MacIntyre- which is not so surprising given the high degree to which (semi-, quasi-)secularized Pagan concepts persisted in mainstream philosophy until roughly Descartes.  The reason is simply that a crucial influence of the Womens' Movement has been the Pagan strand of the counterculture, in which reaction against male chauvanism, essentially strategic separatist tendencies and a philosophical climate of post-modernism combined to contribute to the formation of cultural feminism.  The psuedo-philosophical, well-published feminist postmodernists on the faculty lecture circuit are by contrasts either distrusted outgrowths of or cynical parasites on the more organic cultural base which the academics are not driving.  Even the (justly) infamous Mackinnon-Dworkin duet isn't very representative of feminist "women's culture"- Dworkin was really grassroots, albeit a strange despairing atheist by her later writings, but Mackinnon is a Procrustean modernist whose gender theory is simply a rigid and legalistic analogue to Marxism ("socialist-feminism").

I am not- yet- prepared to defend much in cultural feminism.  But I think it is crucial for libertarians and especially Objectivist to understand the roots of complex movements like feminism- which are often vastly misascribed, wholesale, to plausible philosophers because of a lack of appreciation for the influence of oral tradition on social-political movements. 

Now, this may seemed for removed from Paglia.  But I strongly suspect that Paglia- whose roots lie in the counterculture at the same moment when feminism broke off from it, is far closer to the premises and mentality of her cultural feminist archenemies than she's like to admit. Paglia is officially an atheist- and more important for my concerns, she claims first loyalty to philosophy and scholarship.  Yet not only has she at one point begged to be attacked in print as an 'astrologer', (her term) and claims to take seriously tarot and the I Ching, but more importantly, the substance and even style of her thinking- shorn of her wonderful bombast- don;t really disagree in any serious way with, say, Margaret Atwood's Surfacing.  Paglia simply sides with men- or "Americans", "Westerners". "capitalists", or any of the groups that both Paglia and the cultural feminists analogue to male intentionality (and most libertarians agree- I witness the celebrations of American virility in contrast to a feminized Europe in this forum).  Or, to be more precise, Paglia says that is preferable if civilization is made by men, which it not precisely the same thing.  Cultural feminism, by contrast, often says fairly explicitly that society would be a better place if it were made by women, using precisely the same characterizations of women as Paglia.

To be quite honest, if Paglia is right about innate male and female types, which differ in inescapable and significant ways, I can't help wondering what the consequences are.  For myself personally, I am very troubled that despite my 'inheritance' of a former life's education and habit in philosophy, I feel- I feel ashamed to confess, but it is the truth, that I honestly can get so much more out of life simply existing that I just don't feel such a need to fight it out and create and distinguish myself as I once did, beyond the necessity and prudence to get a voice in.  And what I do create has shifted focus; even the memories of what I once felt are increasingly elusive and spectral... I don't want to make conclusions, especially as just a lifetime of denied feelings could account for so much.

But I do wonder, what if Paglia and/or the cultural feminists are right?  For if so, I can see no argument whatsoever against taking the cultural feminist position- for women, except possibly Paglia's, which merely argues that a formally male-run civilization (with technical legal equality) is better for women's way of experiencing (definitely not her words).  If someone like Paglia is right about female essences, then a philosophy like Objectivism- a perfected instrumental rationalism in its culture, pace Sciabarra- it an idealized philosophy for a masculine pursuit of external self-interest; it is less well suited for a feminine personal of internal realization that is organic, expressive, social.  I stress here that I don;t like this outcome, and tentatively state it is false.  But those Objectivist attracted to Paglia- or even stronger sexual dualisms such as those promoted by sociobiology- should take care; it is simply impossible to uphold innate gender difference while upholding masculine virtues for both males and females.

Thankfully, given Rand's axiomatic defense of free will and theory of emotions as consequent to value- both of which are also part of erotic philosophy- I simply can't accept the notion men and women essentially value differently.  But if the corporeal 'houses' of freely willing men and women (on average) are so different as to create, in the majority of cases, divergent in kind ideal investments of emotional energy- even if no technical determinism?  Then I don't know.  But if this is the case, a great part of Western modernity truly is a very unbalanced structure which some form of cultural feminism may topple to the ground.

my regards,
                            v
                            *
Jeanine Ring     )O(



Post 22

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Jeanine, as a side note to what you wrote, there is a similar dichotomy supposedly in the progressive rock genre (and rock music in general; the Lilith Fair ecofeminists being an example.)
There is a theory put forth by a musicologist named Edward McCann that rock music played on electric instruments is usually considered "masculine" music, and music played on acoustic instruments tend to be more "feminine" (and also seem to have an English folk or medieval feel.) The progressive bands often mixed the two, alternating between electric and acoustic passages. And the group YES eschewed the usual rock star posing in favor of what could be called a more feminist stance (an result of the eastern philosophic of singer Jon Anderson, the eastern philosophies having the "feminine qualities of passivity and quietness...). This did create a dynamic tension within the band (and among some of the fans), when they strayed so far from "rock" that some fans and band members may have felt emasculated to sing along with some of the lyrics. (In the 80's, Yes was recreated in a stadium rock image, toughening up their sound with rock guitarist Trevor Rabin, who provided the rock star antidote to Jon Anderson.)

Contrast this to the band Renaissance, who had a female singer, ditched the electric guitars and brought in an orchestra, and basically was not rock but medieval flavored, with classical music being the standard. Very beautiful music, with a tinge of Jazz, nothing identifiable as rock.

After reading Paglia, I am certain that there is something behind the phallic symbol of the guitar in rock music. (They don't call fast guitar playing "wanking" for nothing...the hands moving up the neck, faster and faster, in linear fashion towards the heroic, triumphant guitar solo climax, as the crowd goes wild....when was the last time you saw such spectacle at Lilith Fair?

(Yes, there are women in hard rock- the best being the women of Heart!- but they still are the minority, and very few achieve mainstream success, and they often eschew songs of love for more masculine themes [think the DONNAS). Liz Phair is an interesting example, most of her career she seemed femininist, but has done a 180 with an image change accentuating her breasts, which has alienated many of her long time feminist fans...

Post 23

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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I'm surprised with the fascination with Paglia considering what she has written on two hotly-debated issues here on SOLO.  For example, she wrote in the Salon article "Energy Mess and Fascist Gays":

"What gay ideologues, inflated like pink balloons with poststructuralist hot air, can't admit, of course, is that heterosexuality is nature's norm, enforced by powerful hormonal cues at puberty. In the past decade, one shoddy book after another, rapturously applauded by p.c. reviewers, has exaggerated the incidence of homosexuality in the animal world and, without due regard for reproductive adaptations caused by environmental changes, toxins or population pressure, reductively interpreted bonding or hierarchical behavior as gay in the human sense."

She is also what Linz could call a "Saddamite".  This, from an interview:

"How to start! This Iraq adventure is a political, cultural and moral disaster for the United States. Every sign was there to read, but the Bush administration is run by blinkered people who are driven by ideology and who do not feel the largeness of the world and its multiplicity of religions, ethnicities and customs."

I agree (for the most part) with the former but not the latter.  I do not like her style of writing (she rambles too much!) but I like how she is not afraid to be politically incorrect (at times), sticking it to both liberals and conservatives.


Post 24

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Joe, if I were you, I'd hunt her down at her university, and see if I can sit in at one of her lectures.

I think Paglia has a lively, lucid and sexy writing style (she's at her best in "No Law In The Arena"--main essay for her book Vamps and Tramps--in that regard), and as a thinker, I think she is very insightful and interesting in certain areas, maddeningly inconsistent in others. She seems to be enormously learned in history, art and culture, but not so learned in economics or political philosophy--the roots, respectively, of her superpowers and shortcomings.

Overall, a very charming and original mind.


Post 25

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 9:24pmSanction this postReply
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Byron, I don't read Paglia for her political writings but for her writing on art and culture, which is what she teaches, after all. I find her interpretation of art fascinating. Being gay myself, I am not bothered by the quote you provide, knowing that she is also an advocate of gay rights. I don't think that homosexuality is the norm if by normal, that means the majority. And after reading Sexual Personae, I think I have a deeper understanding of my own sexuality.

Post 26

Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 5:03amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps what is being touted as 'masculine virtues' isn't such, but is 'human virtues',pertaining to the human being as a whole, not the particular sexual orientation.  Granted, this would upset those who would rather presume all notions of virtues come from sexual orientations, but in fact, virtues come from one's surviviability per species, not sex - more specifically, virtues come stem from either of two possible ways of surviving, namely 'to take' or 'to trade', as per Jane Jacob's SYSTEMS OF SURVIVAL.

Post 27

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps what is being touted as 'masculine virtues' isn't such, but is 'human virtues',pertaining to the human being as a whole, not the particular sexual orientation.  Granted, this would upset those who would rather presume all notions of virtues come from sexual orientations, but in fact, virtues come from one's surviviability per species, not sex - more specifically, virtues come stem from either of two possible ways of surviving, namely 'to take' or 'to trade', as per Jane Jacob's SYSTEMS OF SURVIVAL.
Msr. Malcolm-

It is true I may have been unclear (I am unfamiliar with Jacobs, apologies); let me state my position:

1) I'm not a polylogist, and agree that fundamentally, human virtues as a whole are universal regardless of sex.  I agree passionately with Mary Wollestonecraft that "mind has no sex", and the last thing I want to do is reintroduce (in postmodern form) the ancient evils of sexism via the notion of innate male or female worldviews.
 
2) However, I am forced by intellectual honesty to seriously entertain the notion that the sensory-emotional economies and physical situation of existence as male and female (noting a diverse number of unusual cases and exceptions- myself obviously included)- could well mean that there is truth to the notion that the specialized virtues promoting the most happiness for the typical man and woman could be divergent enough to justify the names of different ethical approaches.  What I have in mind here are the sense in which an ideal businessman and an ideal rock musician, a warrior or a parent, will have very different specialized codes of value, even if all of the above should be broadly rational and egoistic.  In this sense, I am considering that it might make sense to speak of a feminine and masculine ethic.  Let me very strongly state that like Paglia, I would still strongly support those who go against the grain of their emotional economies to specialize in masculine and feminine against "nature's tyranny".

3) That said, I do think that Objectivism lauds the masculine virtues- instrumental rationality, direct economy, conversation as efficiency, career productivity, over the social, emotional, and expressive virtues considered feminine, and that this is a serious failing.  I respect the view that all the masculine virtues are really general human ideals which females have historically been denied- this was Simone de Beaviour's view- but I eventually must conclude against it.  Having lived as a female and passing through both conventional feminine culture and the alternative Women's subculture, I think there is a great deal of value in a the specialized feminine virtues, and Objectivism and libertarianism rather callously tend to slight them.

This goes a long way towards explaining why the vast majority of libertarians are men- it's not because freedom only attracts males, but because libertarians are out of touch with many of the most rewarding experiences of life that for right or wrong reasons are experienced by females in our society.  This is an old problem in liberalism- going back at least to Locke; formal universalism (a good thing) but the universalization of a man's experience in life.  But I do think libertarians can easily and without contradiction accomodate most of the traditionally feminine virtues.  I would cite as models Chris Sciabarra, Roderick Long, Sharon Presley, Mimi Reisel Gladstein, and Mary Ruwart.

4) As for survival and ethics, I just don't think the Objectivist ethics here makes much sense.  To go from the truth that survival is necessary for happiness, to modelling the entire life of happiness and its virtue after the requirements of survival, is a mistake and a non sequitor.  Hobbes and Locke did this deliberately because they were formulating a political ethic for a utilitarian and thus tolerant, un'enthusiastic' culture.  Classical liberalism sometimes did so not as an ideal but as a sad concession to a world where beauty and truth were concerns that could not realistically be primary in a practical world.  But I think a better, more brilliant ethic has been historically created by leisured aristocrats (Aristotle and Epicurus being a good examples) who did not confuse the element of noble creativity in production with the element of drudgery and necessity.  Now that- thanks to centuries of partial modernity and liberty, we have a far wealthier society, we can extend the experience of the aristocratic virtues to a mass culture.  This possibility has been significantly developed by the cultural left.  It is time for Objectivism- which as a rational egoism articulates some requirements for the good life that counterculturalists lack, to stop despising the non-survivalist virtues and respect those who have developed a subculture glorifying music, art, sexuality, pleasure in friendship easy laughter, and other real constituent element s of Earthly happiness.  Respect them critically, for  the Objectivist regard for reason is a good thing which counterculturalists need to learn from.

I hope this amends my statement to make it clear what it is I support in the 'feminine' virtues.

my regards,
                            v
                            *
Jeanine Ring     )O(


Post 28

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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BTW, I think I should mention I'm kind of biased in regard to Paglia... I think she is impossibly hot.  My intellectual judgement is a little clouded by the fact that I feel extremely spiritually close to her... and also because, well, I can't read her any more without wanting to be rather... mmm... less metaphorically close to her.

I think I've kind of implied that I too would utterly love to meet her some time, though I'm afraid my composure would go all to the Abyss in her presence.  (*flush*)

um, regards.
                                   v
                                   *
Jeanie Shiris Ring   )O(


Post 29

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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"3) That said, I do think that Objectivism lauds the masculine virtues- instrumental rationality, direct economy, conversation as efficiency, career productivity, over the social, emotional, and expressive virtues considered feminine, and that this is a serious failing.  I respect the view that all the masculine virtues are really general human ideals which females have historically been denied- this was Simone de Beaviour's view- but I eventually must conclude against it.  Having lived as a female and passing through both conventional feminine culture and the alternative Women's subculture, I think there is a great deal of value in a the specialized feminine virtues, and Objectivism and libertarianism rather callously tend to slight them."


What would you cite to be the feminine virtues? because, far as I can tell, all effective, assertive, good virtues are coded 'masculine', and those things which are coded 'feminine virtues' are slave morality subservience at best. Note that I do not think that is in any way the fault of females: they didn't write the cultural values that idealize the act of them being subservient fools, and many noble women have resisted against this standard and refused to live by it: Ayn Rand and Simone de Beauvoir would be great examples, and I tend to very much agree with Beauvoir's view on this matter. Lets face it, all the good traits, as in good for life or happiness, were coded male, all the bad traits, good only for slave morality, were coded female. The best thing on earth which you could do for the welfare of female humans is to slay femininity. Or, if you disagree, please cite specific feminine virtues which you find to be useful for life and happiness and which do not fall into slave morality?

Post 30

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

far as I can tell, all effective, assertive, good virtues are coded 'masculine', and those things which are coded 'feminine virtues' are slave morality subservience at best. Note that I do not think that is in any way the fault of females: they didn't write the cultural values that idealize the act of them being subservient fools, and many noble women have resisted against this standard and refused to live by it: Ayn Rand and Simone de Beauvoir would be great examples,
I am quite shocked at your message above. I'd just say this that if there is no "feminine virtures", there would be no human race on earth. It has nothing to do with any culture values whatsoever.

I admire my husband very much when he commented after our son was born "I am amazed that human race has not yet extinct!". He is the most Randish person I've ever met (though he never heard about Rand), and he knows if the world is only populated by people like him, there would be no human race at all. He fully appreciates the "feminine virtures"!

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 12/02, 1:29pm)


Post 31

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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Note that I am not being sexist. I do not claim that women cannot do "masculine virtues" or are worse at them. I am simply claiming that our culture coded all the good behaviors as "male" and all the weak behaviors as "female"

Post 32

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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Note that I am not being sexist. I do not claim that women cannot do "masculine virtues" or are worse at them. I am simply claiming that our culture coded all the good behaviors as "male" and all the weak behaviors as "female"
Msr. Bisno-

I just want to say, as a feminist, that I definitely agree that you are not being sexist in your stance here.   While I do disagree with you, what you are arguing is fully compatible with a rational feminism.

I take time saying this because I once held precisely the same views, and felt very upset that other feminists- who were often quite sexist themselves- refused to take this seriously as a form of feminism.  I now think they had reason to be suspicious of my views, but no reason whatsoever to offer scorn instead of arguments.  Since I support feminism, I would like to show myself that feminists can do better.

Please accept my apologies if I do not answer immediately; I have spent more time than I can afford on this site of late, and must attend to other affairs.  That said, your question is precise and fair and deserves a reasoned answer.

regards,
                                   v
                                   *
Jeanie Shiris Ring   )O(

(Edited by Jeanine Ring on 12/02, 2:26pm)


Post 33

Friday, September 28, 2012 - 5:45amSanction this postReply
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From the topic essay: "I half-jokingly used the word "conspiracy," but ...  Together, the two sexes are gently nudged toward that androgynous median personality, self-satisfied and socially compliant, that is the current politically correct outcome in American society."
I do not think of it as a conspiracy in the sense that a small group sits down and plans this out. I see these as independent streams of thought and action that form a confluence. I also believe that the demise of social gender roles was a good thing that needs to continue.  I agree with Joe Maurone that the problem is the forcing, especially as children are given these drugs. One aspect of gender roles that seldom gets prominence is how school - especially elementary school - is a feminine environment in which boys are coerced into acting like (the Victorian stereotype of) girls. 

I found the range of posts and writers interesting and noted that Barbara Branden used to participate here.  That was before Lindsay Perrigo said and then she said and then Lindsay Perrigo said and .. welll... anyway.... "Glory days, they'll pass you by, quicker than the wink in a young girl's eye... " (Hmmmm.... gender....)


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