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Post 100

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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Rooster (or Mr. Puke?),

Sorry, I should have read your post more carefully.  It does appear we are in agreement on not judging Adam given what little we know.  I agree with your general principle, which is why I have a problem with teenagers having sex too early.  Most teenagers are not prepared emotionally and financially to deal with some the reasonably possible consequences.

By the way, Jeanine in an earlier post compared the risks of sex to the risks of riding a motorcycle or climbing a mountain.  I actually agree with the comparison, which is why I don't recommend doing either activity without the proper training and safety equipment.  I have a need for speed myself, but I don't give in to my passions and jump on a motorcycle just because I felt like it.

Note: Edited for clarity.


(Edited by Byron Garcia on 12/15, 11:59am)


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Post 101

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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Setzer & Garcia,

I think we all recognize that these things require a big dose of commonsense, because it's difficult to come up with hard-and-fast rules that can be applied to all situations.  My general inclination is to agree with you two that parents rule the roost until their little birdies want to fly away (or get pushed out of the nest).  Unless the issue is abuse or physical neglect, it's hard for me to second-guess the way each family raises its kids.

So, if a kid wants to have it both ways - financial support from mom and dad but freedom to do as he pleases - he's either a fool (because he doesn't grasp the contradiction in his desires) or a leech (because he is quite comfortable with that contradiction).  I don't think that's a controversial position to take regarding a minor.  However, I think it still applies after eighteen.  I do say that reasonable parents who want to financially assist a kid in college would be wise to loosen the strings over time, but that does not mean they are obligated to.  It's their money, and once their kid is old enough to fend for himself, he takes their money on their terms.

If those terms mean controlling his libido, as a young adult, it's his choice - the money or the fun.  However, if he's a minor, the parents have a right to completely control his sexual behavior.  I don't see how that would be objectionable to Objectivism.  First of all, the kid is under the parents' roof.  Second, the parents will bear the financial responsibility for his behavior (unless they disown him).  Three, the parents are, except in cases of genuine abuse and neglect, the best judges of what is good for their children.

That's my ramble for the day.

Pukszta

P.S.  To tell you the truth, Garcia, MISTER Puke has a nice ring to it.


Post 102

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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The point to me is not primarily about rights or parents.  The point is, speaking to the adolescent, whether Objectivism would counsel her to give up sexual passion because the parents command it as the price of their provision; the alternative being rebelling against such commands and pursuing passion despite parential authority.

I suspect the answer is, ultimately: yes.  And it means I feel nothing for this philosophy.
 
Thy voice is the voice of Jacob, but thy hands are the hands of Esau.


Post 103

Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Jeanine: "I suspect the answer is, ultimately: yes."

My answer is: No.

Barbara

Post 104

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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Jeanine,

I think from an Objectivist point of view it is *not* so much giving up sexual passion, but, encouraging the rational, selfish, pursuit of values.

Now, there is a context which is important here. It is entirely appropriate for parents (who own the house and make the rules of the house), to set the tone, and enforce an ethical code of conduct in the home. And, when it comes to protecting minors from themselves and from predatory others (part of parents responsibility), it might be necessary to make judgements that go against the teenagers desires.

John

Post 105

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 6:56amSanction this postReply
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If Objectivism as a guide to life has anything explicit to say on such a specific matter, I would think it would counsel the adolescent to respect the property rights of their parents and choose which is of more value to him.  A judgement such as that is contextual because it is based on an individual's hierarchy of values.  I have said what I have done (and would still do) as an adolescent, and what I would wish for any adolescent child of mine if I ever were to have one.  Is my choice appropriate for every, single adolescent who ever lived?  Probably not, but I don't think either choice is.  Nevertheless, it is my choice, not yours, and it does not infringe on the political rights of any other.  If you wish something different for yourself or your own child, that's your choice too, and you won't hear a word of complaint from me for you do not infringe on my rights.

Now, a teenager can go ahead and blame the parents or blame society if they can't have their cake and eat it too, i.e. if they expect food and shelter from another human being without respecting their values (rational or not), but that would be just childish.  It's like the kid in the toy store saying to his parents "I want that!  It's mine!  I want you buy it because it's my right!"
(Edited by Byron Garcia on 12/16, 6:58am)


Post 106

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 7:24amSanction this postReply
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Byron said:
Now, a teenager can go ahead and blame the parents or blame society if they can't have their cake and eat it too, i.e. if they expect food and shelter from another human being without respecting their values (rational or not), but that would be just childish.  It's like the kid in the toy store saying to his parents "I want that!  It's mine!  I want you buy it because it's my right!"

Byron, I totally disagree with this.  (BTW, I don't have any children either, so we don't have to let reality interfere with our discussion!)  I believe that a child (teenagers included) do have a moral right to be raised in an environment with rational values.  And if the parents say, in effect, that you either behave in the irrational ways that we demand or go fend for yourself, then the child has the moral right to blame them.  They're not necessarily asking to "have their cake and eat it too"; they could be asking that they be allowed to behave in a rational way and still be fed.  I don't think that's childish.

Thanks,
Glenn


Post 107

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 7:45amSanction this postReply
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Glenn,

I respect your argument, because I too hope that every child is raised in an environment where the proper values are cultivated.  That may solve many problems in this world we live in.  Where I disagree with you is your argument that it is a moral right of a child.  Per Objectivism, rights can only be infringed upon by the initiation of force and, if force is initiated, the government should retaliate in kind (I challenge anyone to argue otherwise).  Imagine the logical conclusion to your argument.  If a child has a right to be raised a certain way, the government would have a place in how your child is raised, and could step in when you're raising a child with values that are not rational.  And values rational by whose standard?  Do you trust lawmakers to do choose which values are rational?  That is sliding down a slippery slope to Hillary Clinton's "it takes a village to raise a child".

A child should be free from the initiation of force, like any other citizen.  Parents should provide for the child's food, clothing, and shelter until the child is an adult.  Above and beyond that, a child has no right that adults do not.


Post 108

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
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Byron,

I was trying to make the distinction between moral rights and legal rights.  In another thread ( Levels & Degrees of Immorality), the discussion concerns Jane and Dick, who have agreed to have a monogamous romantic relationship.  Jane "cheats" on Dick with Fred.  Now, I don't think Dick has a legal right to Jane's faithfulness, but he has a moral right and is justified in morally condemning her.

Likewise, I think the child who is raised in an irrational environment has a moral right to condemn the parents.  But, I don't think they should have a legal right, short of the initiation of force, as you pointed out.  (Although, I think we're getting into a gray area here; to what extent are they allowed to punish the child for disobeying their irrational demands?  But that's another, related, question.)  Believe me, I don't want Hilary (shudder) involved in any of this.

Thanks,
Glenn


Post 109

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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Mme. Branden,

thank you for your mind's speech; you have a wonderful way of using words with effect to brighten at the right time; I only fear that your brightness does not shade its colour to my sight of this philosophy

Msr. Newhnam and Mr. Garcia,

Not your kind of world.


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Post 110

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 4:07amSanction this postReply
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Jeanine,

I answer your question with the same firm "no" Barbara gave you.  Sex is for adults, not children, if for no better reason than children (even if they have boobs or hairy armpits) are not ready to handle the consequences of sex.

On second thought, Jeanine, maybe I wouldn't answer exactly the same as Barbara.  You spoke of a child acting upon her sexual passion.  I think she should and rebellion is not necessary.  Whatever happened to the sublimination of desire?  Whatever happened to channeling our passions and appetites into creative outlets?  Why shouldn't we be teaching our children these tools to deal with those times when our appetites cannot be directly fed?

Have we all become so crude and animalistic that sexual passion can only be expressed through a sexual act?  After all, sex is not the end-all and be-all of the happy life.

Pukszta


Post 111

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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[['Rooster Puke'],
['Pukszta']]
I cannot bear to say such names unbracketed.

By the Life and my love of it, you are a monster.  May every suicide of every child  forbidden to see their love, perishing in senseless pain, dying loving nothing because your world forbade them to live in their love, may these murders by morality, the acts of your barbarous Morality of Death garbed in its garments of hideousness and torture, haunt you as Furies without mercy.

By the Goddess!  I have lost my own blood and ventured to the edge of death by my own hand- six times- because of monsters with authority like you, and I have bled my soul in poetry and prose in sublimation of rending pain as you would dare, dare to smugly recommend in the blasphemy of praising stillbirthing repression as the father of art.

I have seen souls killed by your morality.  I have lost more than I will ever know myself to your moralists.  And yet I have still never heard words in inky-black evil to equal here yours.   By what I have sighted and in it if I must, you, all of you who share this soul, you are the murderers of the most passionate of the young, and as long as those murders persist may you never, never be forgiven.

What Ayn Rand's Soviet Russia was to her Kira Argouvna and Leo Kovalenski by the power of the state, so is your fatherly kind to every child in passion by the power of parents under our world's skies.

Your world!  Your morality!  Your philosophy!- "~these~ Precious Things/let them ~bleed~/let them them wash ~away~" (Tori Amos)

So much for the so-called "Philosophy of Living on Earth".  I recuse myself to a real love of this Earth and her wisdom.

spoken,

(C.M.S.)
Aster Manque


Post 112

Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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Jeanine,
Are you overreacting a little bit over Rooster's post?

Obviously you have had quite some traumatic experience yourself, but your case maybe a extreme case.

You can not blame the phenomenon of teenager suicide entirely on their parents. Adolescence is a difficult time for many youngsters. The suicide potential has a lot to do with individual temperament and disposition of the teenage. Their environment, for most of the time, only plays a secondary role.

It appears to me that you are yet to overcome your personal bias and look at the children-parental relationship objectively.


Post 113

Friday, December 17, 2004 - 2:48amSanction this postReply
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Mme. Zhang-

I believe you speak in honesty, and I am sure you have reason to believe as you do.  However, I do in truth speak from a very deep conviction and not an irrational one.

That said, one reason I came to this site was to understand my spiritual concurrence and difference with Objectivism.  While I came close for a time to believing that my differences with Objectivism were primarily those of names, temperament, unique experiences, and a thousand technicalities, I think I am here finally understanding why I feel estranged from the philosophy on some basic level.  Essentially, Objectivism believes in adult 'responsible' freedom in the context of self-expression bent as necessary for the sake of happiness flowing from right reason in orderly pursuits in an orderly world, whereas I believe both adulthood and reason are justified because they can grant strength and perfection to one's uniquely individual song of passion that begins pure in childhood- and that society should be moved aside and shattered for this rare unbroken beauty's sake.

There are things I needed to resolve, and my past is part of this.  But Rand too, never ceased to remember vividly and never divorced from her own life the horrors of Soviet Russia- instead, she learned from those horrors and never forgot not forgave those evils; the lesson she drew was eternal emnity against altruism.  I have seen other evils- of which I've even now said but a fraction- which crystallize in my eyes broad social evils throughout the world; the lesson I draw is eternal emnity against patriarchy.

The point is, ultimatley, that Objectivism is a patriarchy, deriving its concept of human nature from self-interest defined by necessity and accepting and even glorifying the bending of will and passion to that end, as well as accepting a form of self-interest which assumed the social structure and constraints of a society geared to necessity.  I've long wondered about Objectivist deference to the police and military, to the social and economic heirarchy, to "honest work/just reward" instead of simply pursuing happiness.  It simply makes sense now- Objectivism assumed the repressed "armored" psychology of a Western socialized man deprived of the ability to experience immediate pleasure of existence and instead invested in the sublimated pleasures of achievement, performance, and ego-maintenance.

There are many conclusions from this, which will take me some time to work out; but ultimately what I believe it means is that Audre Lorde was right: "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house."

Adam Reed has here said a beautiful, noble thing.  He spoke up a terrible wound inflicted upon him and worse injustice to ruin the life of a young woman, in the innocence that a philosophy of self-interest would support him.  But the truth is threat other voices rose up here to say: by Objectivist rationality, you should have accepted your parents right to snuff out your dreams and soul, and hers as well, and that your parents were likely right to check your irresponsible little sexuality.

And the truth is that while Adam was right, beautifully right, his critics could not be answered on Objectivist grounds.  Objectivism- and a lot more than Objectivism- honestly applied lined up on what I would call, by both my premises and passions, the side of evil.

I am glad to see this: I've wanted to understand why my emotions said there was something deeply wrong with Objectivism even though my mind  said the differences weren't all that great.  I've had at least one very wise person who shares other of my convictions state that I was just not getting what was wrong with this philosophy.  I think I finally am.

That's it, let me just say to Adam Reed: stop supporting your own destroyers.
 
Jeanine


Post 114

Friday, December 17, 2004 - 5:39amSanction this postReply
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Jeanine to Rooster: "By the Life and my love of it, you are a monster. May every suicide of every child forbidden to see their love, perishing in senseless pain, dying loving nothing because your world forbade them to live in their love, may these murders by morality, the acts of your barbarous Morality of Death garbed in its garments of hideousness and torture, haunt you as Furies without mercy."

This speaks for itself.

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Post 115

Friday, December 17, 2004 - 6:25amSanction this postReply
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Jeanine,

Of all the curses that have ever been hurled at me, yours is by far the most eloquent and touching.  I should be insulted, but I find your words too charming to be anything other than flattered.

Now I would like a straightforward answer, if you don't mind.  What is cruel about a parent teaching a child to use his reason to control his appetites?  Unless we are going to be something more than animals, we don't act upon every passion, impulse, and appetite as it arises.  It is a vital skill to learn how to delay the gratification of an appetite, because the circumstances under which we cannot immediately appease them are legion in life.

I daresay more children have followed the awful path to suicide because they were taught too little restraint, not too much.

The Monster


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Post 116

Friday, December 17, 2004 - 7:09amSanction this postReply
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Jeanine,

You have denounced sublimination as repression.  You are right.  But it is not a bad thing.  Much of what makes us human rather than animals is our ability to repress our urges.

For example, I always try to repress the impulse to burp or fart when in the company of others.  I always successfully repress the urge to piss or shit until I reach a toilet, unless I'm camping (and then I'll use the latrine if it's nearby).  I do not sate my hunger with junk food.  I repress that urge until I can get a decent meal.  When I'm horny I don't masturbate.  I repress my libido until I am with my wife, and even then not until the appropriate moment.

I also repress desires on the long term.  I do not act upon the temptation to buy on credit.  I repress that desire until I have the extra cash.  I don't say swear words, despite the fact they are a second language for me since my time in the service.  I repress that language because I don't want my kids to pick it up.  I repress (among other things to improve my character, although not always successfully) the impulse to make an uncharitable or snarky remark about others, even when I can show how clever I am, because I've learned that I'm better off giving people the benefit of the doubt.

I'll be so bold as to say repression is the essence of humanity, because repression is the primacy of reason over passion.  This is not to say passion is bad.  Not hardly.  Not by a long stretch.  But passion is a healthy and creative force in our lives when it is in service to reason.  That's the beauty of passion harnessed to reason.  Often our emotions, lusts, and hungers cannot be directly satisfied, but reason can still use the power of these passions by subliminating them into a creative outlet.

Only with reason can a passion always be fulfilled.

Pukszta


Post 117

Friday, December 17, 2004 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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You have denounced sublimination as repression. You are right. But it is not a bad thing. Much of what makes us human rather than animals is our ability to repress our urges.


Everything you say here is literally correct, except that I think that “repress” is a bad word here. Taking the definition from Merriam Webster:

1 a : to check by or as if by pressure : CURB b : to put down by force : SUBDUE
2 a : to hold in by self-control b : to prevent the natural or normal expression, activity, or development of
3 : to exclude from consciousness


As these definitions indicate, and as the word generally seems to be used by psychology, “repression” denotes something rather more permanent and damaging than the simple and rational deferment to a more appropriate time you describe.

I think that the choice of a good word here is important because I see there as being two conclusions one could potentially draw with regard to desires from the premise of the supremacy of reason over passion:


  1. “I desire something. It is improper for me to desire it. Therefore I will ignore the desire.”
  2. “I desire something. I will keep this desire in mind, and look for the means and opportunity to fulfill this desire in the most productive and least contradictory manner possible.”


I believe that (2) is the way a rational individual should treat his desires, and the sense which you mean to suggest in your posts. (1), on the other hand, is the sort of self-destruction Jeanine speaks of.

To try to live by (1) is, taken consistently, to set oneself at perpetual war with one's own unknowable and malevolent subconscious. Desires are real, and they happen for a reason—they are not the product of magical demons that live in your brain and try to tempt you away from the path of reason to your own destruction. However you decide to deal with a desire, you must, first and foremost, acknowledge it—anything else is an evasion of a fact of reality.

It's very important that we clearly and consistently repudiate (1)—if anything at all his left vague or implicit here, it's very easy for those whose goal is the destruction of passion to use our arguments for (2) as to aid their support of (1). And I think it is the implicit prevalence of (1) in a lot of present-day Objectivist thought that Jeanine opposes.

In fact, to make the difference clear, I would even go so far as to say (though more in the form of a sound byte than in a well thought-out argument) that (2) is more properly stated as the primacy of passion over reason. By this, I mean that reason is only a tool—the most potent and valuable tool we possess, but still only a tool; a tool which we use to find the most effective ways of pursuing our passions. Reason is only the means; passion and pleasure are the ends.

(It's also worth mentioning that one of the primary goals of SOLO is the repudiation of the reason/passion dichotomy, and that any talk of the primacy of one over the other is to implicitly acknowledge that dichotomy. If the primacy of passion over reason is taken to mean, as it usually is, the “feels good, do it” mentality, then I see (2) as being the most correct way of giving primacy to neither.)

Post 118

Friday, December 17, 2004 - 1:38pmSanction this postReply
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Leseul,

You're right that repression is a word with some heavy-duty connotations, which I ignored to make a clever point.  I thought your distinction between ignoring a desire and delaying gratification was interesting.  Thinking about it, I'm not sure ignoring a desire is always unhealthy.  But if by "ignore" you mean not dealing with a desire constructively one way or another, I take your point.

If so, I would add that repression is only healthy when it is constructive.  For example, when it moves you towards a rational goal or when it prevents you from harming yourself.  Repression would be unhealthy if the motivation were irrational.  For example, believing sex is evil therefore you suppress all sexual desires (ignore them as you say).

This brings us back to Jeanine who apparently disagrees that parents should encourage their children to not consummate their sexual desires.  If a parent were teaching his child to repress his sexual desires because they are evil, that would be wrong.  However, if a parent teaches the same because even though sex is good, a child is not ready for that pleasure, that would be fine - for the simple reason that it is true.

As an aside, I agree with you that there is no dichotomy between reason and passion.  Instead the relationship between the two is hierarchical, because it is only reason that can put passion to good use.

Pukszta


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Post 119

Friday, December 17, 2004 - 6:04pmSanction this postReply
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This is for all advocates of repressive parenting:

It sounds like I, and most other children brought up in secular Jewish families, have been extraordinarily fortunate in comparison with you, or your unfortunate children, if any. Until the point in my life that I describe in my article, I thought that all families were loving and responsible like my own, or for that matter like Dagny's family in Atlas Shrugged. I learned to consider the consequences of my every chosen action before I started kindergarten, and some day I may write about that. I also learned, from my parents and from my own experience in the fourth grade of a Communist school - about which I shall also write later - that when a truly reasonable man's integrity is on the scale, the only reasonable judgement is: "Price No Object."

Truly reasonable parents support their children's right to live lives of integrity and passion. The others are only human biologically; their lives, such as they are, are as dead as the machines they would turn thir children into. I, for one, am proud to have been the lover of a woman who did not permit her parents to stop her from living a truly Human life. As for her parents, and those on their side, I only regret that there is no Hell.

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