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Post 40

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Next Level that this is one of the more interesting threads I've read in some time.  I have given the issue of differentiating minors and adults some more thought and I cannot help but think that any age of legal consent is arbitrary at best.  My own take now is that a child may only be regarded as legally independent if there is evidence that they are able to live on their own with little to no financial support from their parents.  I am no legal expert but I think the laws now refer to it as emancipation (e.g. child actors who make millions of dollars).  In fact, now that I think of it, it should not matter that much how mature, intelligent, or rational you are.  There are adults now who I'd be hard pressed to call mature, intelligent, or rational.  Not to mention what I imagine to be the difficulty in legally proving you're "mature"!

I agree with Luther that some in this forum may unwittingly be dismissing the value of property rights.  I remember in "Atlas Shrugged" how Hank Rearden felt compelled to support his wife and brother-in-law (wasn't he a "struggling artist"?) even when there values and virtues were in contrast to his own.  Their only claim to his property is that they need what he has and cannot support themselves otherwise (but the brother-in-law claimed he was working on it!).  Not exactly the same, but similar enough, and I am sure nobody here can agree that Reardon had the obligation to support them (remember he chose to marry her).  Yet, there persists here an implication that a parent should unconditionally support their child, regardless of whether they agree or disagree with what their child does.

I'm not talking child abandonment.  The parent does have an obligation to the child.  All I'm saying is that does not give the right the license to bite the hand that feeds him!


Post 41

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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I don't have a daughter, but if I did have one who was still a teenager, any guy who even thinks of sleeping overnight in the same bed as her while she lives under my roof (that I'm paying for) is going to be staring at the business end of my shotgun until he runs as fast as he can (and as far away as he can) from my property.  I know how most snot-nosed, pot-smoking, pimple-faced high school punks think, and he'd have to prove he's the exception to the rule before he can earn my trust.  But that's just me.  It's a free country and I could care less what any other parent did.

Post 42

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Michelle,
Why do you think that no parents would consent to it? 
OK, let's just say that most parent would not be happy with it. Can we agree on that?

Adam,
Thanks for the understanding of the cultural background behind my position on these issues. I wasn't even consciously aware of it myself. I thought I was simply being rational and reasonable! ;-)

I'd have to take your words as to what kind of parents your girlfriend had. I confess that I do not know what would be the best way to deal with such people. Damn the God!

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 12/09, 1:51pm)


Post 43

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Luther that an extensive treatise on parent-child autonomy issues would be beneficial.  The issue is immensely complex, with seemingly everything coming down to a case-by-case basis (read: relativism).   There is simply no universal magic age when people gain the emotional and physical maturity needed to have sex. 

I think we would all agree that it's bad for a grown man to have sexual encounters with a six year old girl, yet we also think it would be unjust for an 18 year old to be criminally prosecuted as a sex offender for having consensual sex with a 15 year old girl.  As I see it, age of consent laws are arbitrary but necessary, but I have yet to see anything that strikes me as the most objective and scientific approach to them.


Post 44

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Hong,

You wrote, "OK, let's just say that most parent would not be happy with it. Can we agree on that?" Unfortunately/fortunately, no. Among secular Jews, respect for the choices of one's child, and empathy for the adolescent's independent pursuit of her own happiness, means that some parents indeed will provide, with approval, for the romantic happiness of their offspring. This positive attitude goes way back, and religious Jews have disapproved for centuries. David Biale, in "Eros and the Jews" (p.71) quotes a religious Jew, Jonah Landsofer, in the eighteenth century (CE) writing about the customs of secular Jews: "From the day they conclude the engagement between the boy and the girl, they allow them to live together and give the girl over to fornication in the house of her father..." Objectively, of course, that is the attitude that rational families ought to have in any culture. The scandal is not that some do, but that many don't.

Post 45

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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Adam, your scenarios seem to presume that the children are engaging in sexual intercourse in the context of a serious romantic relationship.  Do you believe there are boundaries that parents can and should enforce if  their teenagers wished to engage in riskier promiscuous behavior?  I would like to pose an extreme example: what if the children wished to have an orgy in their bedroom?

Post 46

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

Why would an adolescent brought up with complete respect, trust, empathy and love from their parents, and who has been trusted to make his or her own decisions rationally since age 13, turn to such self-disrespect? I just don't see it happening short of some kind of mental pathology.

We're talking about healthy, rational people growing up in a culture of responsibility and self-respect. This is a very different culture from cultures in which children are disrespected, distrusted, intimidated, bullied, and even struck by their parents. A child who is not respected by her parents can grow up without self-respect, and act accordingly. But in those cases there is a lot more wrong than just sexual misbehavior.

Post 47

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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Not everyone is raised in an environment of "complete trust, respect, empathy, and love from their parents" and, even if someone was, individuals are volitional beings and there is no guarantee that they won't turn to such "self-disrespect".  If there was, there would be no war and crime, and there would be no need for objective laws.  Government exists because that reasonable possibility exists.

Luther and Pete are right that there should be a more extensive philosophical treatise on the legal and moral relationship between parents and children.  Enough of us here have come to opposing perspectives on this issue even with our similar philosophical principles.  I think the only thing Ayn Rand said on this topic is that children do not have the same political rights as adults.


Post 48

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 4:45pmSanction this postReply
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It is interesting that, once again, the issue of the 'age of consent' is being raised, or even if there is one.  In the over 40 years I've been involved with Objectivism in one way or another, this was one which, in the early years of the 60's at least, was much discussed - and was raised as an issue which needed serious writing on.. Obvoiusly, this has yet to really come to pass, tho I can offer Judith Levine's HARMFUL TO MINORS as an excellent work to peruse in gaining some further insight into this.  One of the things which needs to be remembered is that we are, in many ways, in the midst of a transitionary time - that is, the idea of needing to 'protect' teens from their proclivities as being something found in this past century, and that, for the most part, was not particularly thought of in earlier times    - tho, too, back then, the notion of children as property was more prevailant.  One has to remember, too, that this is an aspect of transforming a societal structuring of some thousands of years, and the fact that there are many treatises yet needed to be written on practicalizing some of these needs to be taken in that context -well, after all, in a mere half century, look at the transformation which HAS taken place. We, as Objectivists, are in the vangard of looking down the road into the future with rational, integrated foresight of how it all might and could become.  Remember, too, that Dr. Spock's book was almost the first to discuss the issue of childraising - and for all the flaws, look yet at how far we have come from and because of it.

A side note - an example was raised regarding so-called needs of restricting by laws of sexual consent, by speaking of one having sex with a six year old....... when has it become so obscure that the initial dividing line is the turning to puberty?  Properly, a 'child' is defined as one over the age of toddler and until reaching puberty - to speak of a teen as a child is insultive to both adults as well as the individual involved - and much of history has shown of many teens being very 'adultish' in their actions (and no, do not say they lived short lives- since when does lengthening lives mean becoming stupider during the growing stage?).

A last note - remember, the key is 'integrated' view of existance. This is what sets us apart from the whole of history, which has been a hogpog of assortedness which in many cases conflicted - and this allows for further thinking on answers to these and other questions in a manner not considered in earlier ages, certainly not by religionists - and also allows for rebuttals in regards to those ancient views in a manner not able to be considered in earlier times, for lack of understanding the need and viability of the integrated view of existance (another aspect of our 'growing up' so to speak).


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Post 49

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Folks,

I have asked my friend Martin Cowen III to post the section on rites of passage into puberty from his book Fellowship of Reason as a SOLO article.  Hopefully he will do this in a few days.


Luke Setzer

(Edited by Luther Setzer on 12/09, 5:55pm)


Post 50

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Malcolm, great post!

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Post 51

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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You are correct, George. I am new here.

Luke, I apologize. I certainly was out of line.

I had hoped the overall childish flippantness of my post would betray my intention of making a joke—I see it didn’t. And for trying to make a joke during a serious thread, I apologize to Adam.

Jon

Post 52

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
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Adam, thank you for sharing that intense and personal episode.  As you can see, it generated responses immediately and they continue.  Usually, "topic drift" is distracting, but in this case, I found the sidestreets of discourse fascinating and relevant to the theme.  That, too, is a tribute to your expression of that moment in your life.
 


Post 53

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 6:24amSanction this postReply
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Hong wrote:
OK, let's just say that most parent would not be happy with it. Can we agree on that?
I agree on that. Nevertheless, in today's secular culture, in heavily liberal areas, many parents would only care that the kids protect themselves. In fact, I find the attitude of some parents I know to be too permissive. The important thing for parents to check is whether their son or daughter is involved in a genuine romantic involvement and not just infatuated. I also think that 16-17 is the minimum age for the emotional maturity required for a genuine romantic involvement.

-- Mcihelle


Post 54

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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If we educate our children in pursuing values, and making rational self interest a priority, then as teenagers they should be more likely to make good choices.

For my daughter, I would hope that she chooses selfishly. Many teenage girls do not choose selfishly, actions that are in THEIR best interest. They choose instead, to please others. The level of respect that teenage boys, and their peers have for young women is surprisingly, sadly, very very low.

For those who are interested, Michelle runs a discussion group for Objectivist Parents at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ObjectivistParents/

John

Post 55

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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Michelle,

16 or 17?  You must run in different social circles than me.  Most teenagers I knew in high school (and observe around me) have very poor judgement and a dismal lack of long-term thinking.  I went to an exclusive college-prep private school too so I can only imagine what an inner city public school was like!  Binge drinking, dangerously aggressive driving, gangs, and smoking pot (very common behavior among too many teenagers) are not signs of emotional maturity in my opinion.  Case in point, about half the girls in the graduating class of the public high school in an area I used to live in went to the graduation ceremony pregnant!  I frankly doubt that was the product of a serious romantic involvement.  It almost seems that teenagers with the emotional maturity to pursue long-term goals are the exception, not the rule.

Maybe things were different in the 50's and 60's.  I know what I see today.  Is it because parents are too strict or too lenient?  I don't know, but I'm leaning toward the latter.


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Post 56

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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Byron wrote:
Is it because parents are too strict or too lenient?  I don't know, but I'm leaning toward the latter.
I concur with the caveat that the parents often give themselves too much leniency and fail to serve as good role models.  I have a Christian acquaintance who adopted a teenage boy because the mother and her boyfriend literally kicked him out of the house.  This poor lad lived on the streets for over a year before getting placed into foster care.  He also experienced sexual abuse from these people entrusted to care for him and had a great deal of anger as a result.  Happily, he joined the Army and underwent mandatory anger management and now lives a productive life.  His story could have ended tragically.

We can say what we want about Christianity, but I know many Christians who are basically decent, hard working and productive people with a benevolent sense of life.  My acquaintance embodies these qualities and I can appreciate his efforts.

In other news, a local news story profiled two parents on public strike against their ungrateful children.  They actually sat in reclining lawn chairs in their front yard sipping drinks next to a large sign that read "PARENTS ON STRIKE" and told their kids to fend for themselves for a change.  The strike erupted over the children's disrespect and slacking on chores.  Read the full story at

http://www.indystar.com/articles/2/201125-4952-010.html


Luke Setzer

(Edited by Luther Setzer on 12/10, 9:05am)


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Post 57

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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What you all said about teenager boys and girls (emotional and behavior immaturity, lack of respect, lack of self-esteem, poor judgement, etc. etc) largely apply to many adults as well. So I don't think that's the key issue here in deciding when we should let them go.

I think the most important thing is that youngster must learn the necessary skills to survive in the society on he own. Only after he is able to take full responsibility of the consequences of his choices and is able to survive, he is then free to go ahead and make all the mistakes he had to make. If it is the parents who have to take the responsibility of their children's choices, then the children are not free to make those choices, no matter how old they are.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 12/10, 9:10am)


Post 58

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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Byron,

It goes without saying that 16-17 is a *possible* estimated age for emotional maturity if the teenagers were brought up rationally, and if they have chosen the same values their parents tried to instill in them.

Michelle



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Post 59

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

I'm glad you posted the news article link, and I've posted some discussion there. I hope that discussion of proper moral upbringing, and what to do when adolescents fail to respect the equal rights of their parents - including the parents' right to set reasonable "house rules" for the adolescents' use of their parents' property - moves over there. I would prefer this discussion thread to give some attention to the obligations of parents.

My first lover's parents were well-off middle class suburbanites. Had it not been for her having relatively well-off parents, a National Merit Scholar would have been assured of a full scholarship to MIT or Radcliffe or some other first-rank school. Their obscenely immoral failure to fulfill their obligations to their daughter, meant that their daughter lost nearly two decades of creative intellectual life - the extra time it took to complete a secular undergraduate degree in her field, and then graduate school and a doctoral dissertation, while working as a pre-school teacher. Yet I have not heard a word of condemnation for their behavior. Shouldn't one's discussion of bad mores have some degree of proportionality?

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