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Post 120

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

This is an old thread, and I heaven't gotten to the end, but I am struck by this question (I would ask it of Barbara as well, but fear that her initial reaction to my moniker and my posts thus far preclude her answering it):

Question: When you say that "nobody's perfect" are you saying that everyone breaches morality (using Objectivism's standard as you understand it) or are you saying that everyone commits errors of knowledge?

Same question would apply to "makes mistakes."

Errors in morality would lead to feelings of guilt; errors of knowledge would lead to regret or disappointment?

Tom Rowland


Post 121

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

I'm sure that Adam responded to this already, and, if so, I am only adding to the fire,
but your claim to be able to read AR's mind is outrageous..

"had to be some subconscious knowledge..." you gratuitously label a "HARD FACT" that you come up against, as though it were a perceptual object open for all to see if only they'd look.

Give me a break.

Tom Rowland


Post 122

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Aren't you claiming the same ability to see people's evasions that some people claim Peikoff is erroneously claiming in "Fact and Value?"   In fact your brush seems to be painting with a much broader reach which includes "everyone", whereas, from my reading, Peikoff sets a much narrower context of those he argues should know better (academic Marxists, e.g.)

Tom Rowland


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Post 123

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Tom, you asked me this:
Question: When you say that "nobody's perfect" are you saying that everyone breaches morality (using Objectivism's standard as you understand it) or are you saying that everyone commits errors of knowledge?

I'll not only answer your immediate question; I'll cut to the chase, anticipating subsequent questions that will be raised by others.

To your immediate question, I'll stick my neck out, appear to march completely off the Objectivist reservation and give a totally honest, but Philosophically Incorrect answer:

By what I wrote, I meant that I've never yet met anyone who is immune to "errors of knowledge" or "errors of morality." In other words, I've never met any morally perfect person.

That conclusion is based on 55 years of living, 38 of them in close proximity to Objectivists. I've met most of the leading names in The Movement, up close. And the closer I've gotten to know even those people, the more I've seen instances of both kinds of errors, including irrationality. Sometimes, blatant irrationality.

By "irrationality" I include all forms and degrees of evasion, including context-dropping, subject-switching and the ever-popular practice known as "rationalizing." Rationalizing entails the stubborn unwillingness to face unpleasant facts, and then coming up with brain-cracking (often philosophical) "explanations" and "arguments" to support one's evasions. It can include exaggerating the significance of preferred facts, minimizing or ignoring the significance of others, but always concocting plausible sounding "reasons" in order to save face.

Now, does Bidinotto include himself in this ungenerous assessment of his fellow men? Has he ever acted against his best judgment, or rationalized, or been unjust?

Are you kidding?

Sure I have.

I take no twisted form of pride in admitting that. The only thing I can say on behalf of my doing so is this: By acknowledging such acts, I free myself from continued self-deception about them, and thereby empower myself to change course and improve.

That, however, is something that a moral perfectionist can't bring himself to do. Desperately committed to maintaining his phony, inflated self-assessment at all costs, he blinds himself to the errors of his ways, and thus guarantees that he will continue them...usually compounding them with even further rationalizing.

Rand once wrote, "Evil philosophies are systems of rationalization." What she didn't grasp, apparently, was that any philosophy, her own emphatically included, can be twisted to serve as a system of rationalization. In my experience, many Objectivists (from all camps within the movement) have acquired impressive facility in this practice. That's especially true of some of the most intelligent: fooling themselves takes a lot more work. So their rationalizations soar to awesome rhetorical heights, buttressed by plenty of arcane philosophical language and familiar Objectivist code words. Some get so good at it that they can convince themselves of things that ordinary non-intellectuals, exercising nothing but common sense, know to be utterly stupid and morally appalling.

Unfortunately, many Objectivists have a strong motive to rationalize. That's because Objectivism, as presented by the seminal and leading figures in the movement, saddles them with an enormous psychological pressure: the pressure of moral perfectionism.

Their message, absorbed by many Objectivists, is that any failure of consistency, to any degree, on any issue, in any circumstance, no matter how trivial, is tantamount to the complete betrayal of their soul and their self-esteem...and forever. The assumption is that there are no degrees of irrationality or evasion; that to kid oneself on some minor issue is equivalent to tossing Jews into gas ovens. That assumption gives many Objectivists an all-consuming emotional interest in lying to themselves whenever they fall short of Perfection. Words like "irredeemable" and "unforgiveable" are bandied about a lot in movement literature. Rather than simply admit that they blew it, they torture the Objectivist philosophy into a complex abstract rationale to exonerate their behavior.

Tom, I've been involved with Objectivism and Objectivists since 1967, and the rarest sentence I've ever heard Objectivists utter is any variation of: "You know, I was wrong, it was inexcusable, and I'm sorry." To do that, you see, would be to concede moral imperfection; and that is equated with being totally Immoral, Irrational, Vile, Evil, Irredeemable, Subhuman and all the other familiar Objectivist terms of endearment.

But this view of Objectivism is absolutely wrong.

The fundamental mistake lies in a distorted attitude toward philosophy and toward ethics in general. It hinges on what a philosophy is for.

Rather than use moral principles like road maps or compasses to living -- as practical guides to direct our actions toward the achievement of values -- many Objectivists focus predominantly on the "achievement" of virtue -- of a inner psychological state of moral purity . Their goal is not to achieve something in the world, but inside their skulls: to be something...to be morally perfect. The "ultimate value" of philosophy and ethics -- living a happy life -- evaporates; all that remains is the Moral Standard, looming over their lives 24/7 like some stern, frowning nun, hawk-eyed for any moral infrantions, ready to pounce and rap their knuckles with a ruler called Moral Condemnation.

It is all so perfectly...Catholic.

Tom, I have also found it entirely useless to point out that this obsessive virtue-focus, rather than an outward value-focus, constitutes a misuse of the Objectivist ethics. Rand wrote all about it in "Causality Vs. Duty," but they still don't get it. That's because these intimidated and duty-bound souls, many of whom inherited their deontological approach to morality from religious fundamentalists, are simply not open to reason about this issue. They maintain an enormous emotional investment in viewing the Objectivist morality that way. For many, in fact, that "virtue-focus" was their motive for getting involved with Objectivism in the first place. It spoke to them in religious-sounding terms, like absolutes, unbreached integrity, consistency, certainty, etc. And for them, it had the reassuring appeal of dogma. It beckons with the Siren promise of a certainty and security they felt they lack.

So they find in Objectivism not a practical roadmap to living well on earth, but the static vision of secular Puritanism -- a "scientific"-sounding replacement for the Thou Shalt Nots of their childhoods. If they can only not sin, they can feel the self-respect that they crave. For that's what Objectivism is to them: a route to feeling self-righteous, to feeling good about themselves. And that's something they can "achieve," not through risky action and sweat and trial and error out there in the world, but purely intellectually, from the cozy safety of their armchairs. All they have to do is "be" rational -- that is, think the Correct Premises.

And be very vocal about those premises, too. For that's how they prove their moral status. They talk incessantly about morality. They also talk about it comparatively. Like the Puritans who had to root out witches to burn in order to feel morally superior, platonic Objectivists must root out and repudiate "moral compromisers"...for the same reason. Their never-ending quest for inner reassurance gives them cause to discover Irrationalists everywhere. With each new denunciation, they temporarily feel better: they have reaffirmed their unique concern for morality. Thus morality becomes not a tool for better living, but a bludgeon with which to batter Irrationalists. 

Confirmation of all this? Just watch what follows from this post of mine, as they line up to pounce on me with rationalistic glee.

Ah, finally! There it is! The game is up! Bidinotto at last acknowledges what I always knew: that he rejects the absolutism of reason! He acknowledges his own immorality! He has joined the Cult of Moral Grayness! He has exposed himself as a Raving Subjectivist, a Kantian, a Moral Relativist, a Mystic of Muscle (...or is that "Mystic of Mind"?), an Attila, a Witch Doctor, a...a...a...

That is all complete bullshit, mind you. I said nothing of the sort. In acknowledging that I haven't embodied or encountered moral perfection, I didn't endorse relativism, or rationalize my own failings, or minimize the harmful consequences of irrationality or say that a rational life is theoretically impossible. But for those obsessed with Virtue as an end in itself, and with reassuring themselves of their own perfection via moral witchhunts, what I've just written will be like chum for sharks.

In their responses, they will provide all the footnotes you'll need to confirm what I've said. I don't plan to answer them, feeding their neurotic needs, and don't recommend you do, either.   

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 4/16, 5:50am)


Post 124

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 8:15pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Bidinotto presents: Stunning - part II
 
George


Post 125

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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Robert

What a well-written, incisive, thorough, passionate piece.

Clearly it ties in directly to the issues of the "Liking People" thread.

You've gone right to the heart of the matter of why too many Objectivists are stiff, judgmental, ineffective people, especially interpersonally. Substituting moral perfection as the goal of their efforts rather than living a fulfilled life in this world will do that. It guarantees that one cannot feel good about much of anything that relates to actual concrete people, because none fit the mold that is absolutely required, no deviations. So, of course, the only thing left is to disdain everyone else, and live a lonely self-rigtheous life. That is why I went my own way after the 1968 split. And  it is such a pleasant surprise to find that SOLO has things in the right order -- long overdue.

I am also awed by the sheer volume of high quality output you post here virtually everyday -- Thank you.

BTW, this is not the first "fan letter" I've written you.

In 1996, I believe, you wrote a piece for TOC titled "The Case for Cultural Optimism", which helped me along significantly as I was working on getting rid of the pessimism resulting from the emphasis on moral perfectionism I'd picked up from Objectivism.

I read it probably 10 times over a 1-2 year period -- it was significant in freeing me up. I wrote to thank you.

And I'm thanking you again for all your wonderful posts on SOLO.

Steve Shmurak



Post 126

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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So Robert, is it possible that you're acting irrational right now? That your post is motivated by corrupt desires? Or are you being morally perfect at this moment?

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Post 127

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 9:05pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,
 
I seem to be dogging your posts these last couple of days just to say good things about them, but...
 
Dayamm!!!
 
You are hot these days! Maybe you should do your taxes more often.
 
I want to add a comment to what you wrote. My own history with Objectivism is:
 
1) Full acceptance back in the 70's, with the moral perfectionism fallacy constantly eating at my guts (in Brazil of all places!). I did a lot of stupid "morally perfect" things back then. I hurt others and hurt myself demanding adherence to a standard completely divorced from the context of living and my emotional life. (Remember that "subconscious can be programmed by the conscious using reason alone" thing? That was one that backfired in my face in a horrible manner.)
 
2) Full falling out. Not rejection of Objectivism, mind you. Falling away from everything I held dear, including philosophy and almost life itself. This phase is way too complex and personal right now to go into the particulars. Leave it to say that some of the acts I did during this phase can only be described as immoral and evil if looked at from my perspective today.
 
3) Re-encounter with life and Objectivism.
 
I am preparing a few articles for SOLO on what leads a rational person to lose it and then regain it. I have found the error of knowledge/error of morality dichotomy to be a most useful cognitive moral tool if used in an extremely restricted manner. Used wholesale, I have found it to lead to self-destruction and to be outright evil (that's right, folks - evil - especially when it is used as a whip to reinforce neurosis).
 
The idea that once you choose to do something evil, you are forever tainted and no longer have a noble soul is so damn horrible to live with. A perfect recipe for getting an ulcer. Catholic you say? Catholic has Objectivism beat hands down in this area because, despite all the misguided and evil doctrines in that organization, it has a procedure whereby a person can come to peace with his/her errors and move back to virtue.
 
I will cite just two reasons for a rational person losing it right now (there are several others). One is the "evading" trap. According to dogma, if you are not happy inside, it is because you are evading something - you have not done your thinking or whatever. There are so many word games that are played with this term (including "dishonesty") that it would be funny if it had not wreaked so much havoc on so many fine minds.
 
So what happens when you finally stop evading the fact that your philosophy is one of the main reasons you are so unhappy? There is a profound sense of betrayal. That is what happens.
 
The second is extreme emotional stress and pain. There are many ways to face pain, but most all of us have a breaking point. That is part of human limitation and is part of medical science.
 
This is a very long topic, but I do want to state that it is possible to be morally perfect - one time. Then you have to do it again - one time. Then again - one time. And so on.
 
Along the way some horrendous blunders can be made. But it is also possible to correct them and get back to moral perfection - one time, then one time, then one time...
 
Any wholesale "unforgivable" "irredeemable" "undoable" "cannot leave the fold" concept of moral perfection can only lead to tremendous unhappiness. And only by striving to be morally perfect case by case is it even possible.
 
Michael


Post 128

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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You, Robert, are most certainly correct in that assessment of those close to the 'inner circle' , even to those in most of the NBI groups of the 60's - which is why I, too, kept to the distance, reading the writings, and making my own independent assessments of them, and own understanding of the integrating of them, even when could have gotten much more 'in' to the 'fellowship'...

And yes, is why have kept reading in this SOLO - the only group where it is almost as varied as those days of yore when on campus discussing ideas and having a grand viewing of the possible future..... idea persons are not thick as fleas [sometimes there's simply no dog around for them to flourish on :-)]...

[well, there's Linsy - but am not going to comment on that one].....


Post 129

Friday, April 15, 2005 - 10:11pmSanction this postReply
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Wow. Michael, Robert, George, you guys have really been amazing this past week or so.
 
You are really getting to the heart of how objectivism is a philosophy of living. Thank you.
 
*purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*



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Post 130

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 12:32amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Thanks for another insightful article (yes, it is an article and not just a note, and deserves stand-alone publication.) But this time I have a quibble.

You write,

"You know, I was wrong, it was inexcusable, and I'm sorry."

I've been wrong, and sorry, and in my grown-up life I did not expect otherwise. If it were possible to always be right, there would be no need for experiments or for scientists, and I would have been without a job.

But "inexcusable" is something else.

To avoid repeating the same mistake in the future, I do my utmost to identify the cause or causes of every identified error. That cause serves, when identified, the function of an "excuse." Once I know how to avoid repeating that mistake, I can put the mistake behind me, and thus excuse and forgive myself.

"Wrong" is sometimes a fact of reality. "Inexcusable" is just failure to follow through to rational, secular, efficatious repentance.

Post 131

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 1:00amSanction this postReply
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Robert thank you for taking the time and effort to write that piece, and Adam I found your post very insightful also so thank you too :-)

MH


Post 132

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 1:32amSanction this postReply
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Robert,
You're restoring my confidence in Objectivism. No slight meant to those others out there on SOLO who are constantly providing fuel (and armour) against the pitfalls of "organized" Objectivism - but this is a timely piece (for me) that explains the problems in a very logical manner.

I have to say, something I love about you (and Barbara Branden too) is the willingness to say, in effect, "If this be treason make the most of it."  It's a refusal to fake or rationalize away what you don't understand that makes this sort of insight possible in the first place (though I appreciate that there is much mental effort and time needed to follow the inklings of an idea through to those final insights).

Personally, I've had a tendency lately to simply push aside the problems I've seen in the movement and focus on other things. I've also been experiencing a concern over even being involved in the spreading of the ideas, because of these problems (after all, it's very energy-sapping to feel at war with those 'outside' AND some of those 'inside' the movement).  You've helped me to realize that one can tackle the problems one sees - they're identifiable and resolvable.  Thank you for that much-needed fuel. 

Jason


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Post 133

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 1:44amSanction this postReply
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Adam, you make an important clarification, but I have a feeling Robert was using "inexcusable" in the colloquial sense, to establish that the act was indeed *wrong* -- and therefore not subject to rationalization.

It's an important thing to establish, because the culprits in question do often *say* that they were "wrong" about something -- and then proceed to deny it by subtly shunning all responsibility and rationalizing the blame away. They often conclude that they were wrong only because they weren't "right enough," or "too innocent," or some such crap. The goal is to avoid addressing the real personal error, by "excusing" it away, so they can maintain an image of moral perfection.

So by inexcusable, what should be meant, and what Robert means, is: "I was wrong because of my own folly -- there's no other excuse for it."

Alec 


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Post 134

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 6:10amSanction this postReply
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I've just caught up with this thread. Robert, I don't begin to understand why you'd think your post was going to be blasted as a renunciation of reason & all the rest, here on SOLO. Do you honestly have so little clue as to why SOLO exists, or why your own posts are so well-received, here?

You've disagreed with me very abusively in the past for faulting TOC for being passionless, appeasing & lazy. TOC *is* all of those; SOLO is none of them. Without falling into ARI religiosity, SOLO is precisely the venue where posts such as yours are in sync.

One danger I see, moreover, in Objectivism, is conceit masquerading as self-esteem ... the solipsism of which I've written before & will have more to say about at SOLOC 4. Boastful braggartism is not attractive, nor productive. It is the flip-side of the humility coin, & equally second-handed. Galt didn't engage in it, neither did Rand herself. Nor should any of us.

Linz

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Post 135

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
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Linz,
One danger I see, moreover, in Objectivism, is conceit masquerading as self-esteem...
What on earth does this have to do with Robert?

//;-)

Michael


Post 136

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 6:22amSanction this postReply
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Michael, you are damned right. "Conceit" is a fault, and as the many enthusiastic responses to my comments make clear, I don't have any.  ;^)

Seriously, thank you for the the positive feedback, folks.

You, too, Lindsay. (I think...)  ;^)


Post 137

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 6:32amSanction this postReply
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Lindsay, regarding your comment in Post 134 as to why I might expect negative responses here:

I've noticed that, due to SOLO's relativistic "open borders" policy in allowing ANYONE to post here, you have had a recent infusion of the philosophical equivalent of Illegal Aliens. No, I don't expect SOLO veterans to dispute the irrefutable, eternal wisdom of my posts. But I do expect plenty of pot shots from those recent border-crossers who have been permitted entrance here due to your lackadaisical, indiscriminate catholicity.

As persuasive evidence of that morally inexcusable policy, I recall the words of that great philosopher, Marx (Groucho, that is): I would never want to join any club that would let me in.

That you have let ME in is undeniable proof of your complete moral bankruptcy.


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Post 138

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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Robert - nope, you can't hide behind humor, especially when it's not very good humor. (And Mr Kelly, kindly refrain from putting your fathomless inanities in the way all the time.) You, Robert, have abused me for characterising TOC, whom you defend through thick & thin, as passionless, lazy & appeasing. That is precisely what they are, & it's not a joke. Then you bitch about the state of Objectivism generally, on SOLO, which is not like that, only you can't bring yourself to say so!

There's a virtue called justice that comes to mind.

Linz



Post 139

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
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Lindsay,

You can accuse me of injustice...okay.

You can accuse me of not being tough enough on TOC...fine.

But when you accuse me of not being very funny -- well, buddy boy, that crosses the line!

O, where are my defenders against these calumnies???


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