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Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 5:47amSanction this postReply
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Ron Merrill wrote:
What it amounts to is that Objectivism needs to learn something from the way a successful church operates. It provides social support and reinforcement for its members. There is an element of mutual assistance and loyalty. The learning process is not only intellectual, but highly focussed on ethical issues in daily life. People attend in family units, and the church provides assistance in bringing up their children to follow the principles they believe in.
I agree with this notion and support it as SOLO Local Club Coordinator.  I see an Objectivist Club as an excellent venue to offer moral support to those leaving the church or any other mystical collective.  As for role models of successful secular organizations devoted to human flourishing, look at Toastmasters International.  I hope we can make a road trip to their nearby world headquarters during SOLOC 4.  Their vision statement embraces much of the same "sense of life" we embrace:
Toastmasters International empowers people to achieve their full potential and realize their dreams. Through our member clubs, people throughout the world can improve their communication and leadership skills, and find the courage to change.

(Edited by Luther Setzer on 3/31, 5:47am)


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Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
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Excellent article. 

 

“Perhaps, as suggested by Ayn Rand herself, people accept incorrect premises because they are taught to do so by philosophers. They fail to think for themselves, and instead accept the intellectual authority of Plato or Kant or their followers. The whole culture becomes permeated with irrationality, and individuals absorb its premises passively. But this leaves too much unexplained. How did the ideas of Plato and Kant gain so much influence, and how did they win out over the clearly more sensible ideas of Aristotle? And why are these ideas so universal across cultures? The aristocrats of Heian Japan, or the headhunters of the Amazon rain forest, never heard of Plato or Kant; where did they pick up these ideas? Cultures that developed in complete isolation from Western philosophy have repeatedly duplicated the same basic rules of behavior. Why?”

 

In line with your answer to the question, I think it is the same thing, except psychologically, as the genetic variation in behavior of animals.  Some are aggressive, some are passive.  In times of abundance, the aggressive win out.  But in times of scarcity, the passive creatures win out because the aggressive spend all of their energy fighting each other.  Similarly, in all cultures, at some point in time, someone was for some reason more apt to demand others do something for him.  While some other, for some reason (either randomly, genetically, sociologically, or by willing abducation of his responsibility for existence), obeyed.  Thus the moral virtue became sacrifice, and the successful ‘aggressors’ became the ones preaching sacrifice as a virtue and collecting the results of the sacrifice. 

 

“What is it in the nature of human beings that causes them so frequently--indeed, almost universally--to develop emotional repression, and to express it in the same ways in their ideas about reality and morality?”

 

I agree that the explanation is routed in evolutionary psychology, It makes a lot of sense.  Back when men existed only in groups of hunter gatherer tribes, they needed collectivism to survive.  At the genetic level collectivism worked better for ensuring the continuation of the selfish gene than rugged individualism, so their was always social group pressure and pressure for survival to remain part of a collective.  The aggressive of the collective became the Attila and the witch doctors, the passives became their subservient, and back then, in absence of the abundant resources and division of labor we now have, it was required to act in a group to survive as an individual. 

 

Conversely though, any creature that has a genetic penchant for abandoning reality in favor of a platonic dreamworld will quickly come to its demise when it waddles of the edge of a cliff.  So clearly most creatures, including humans, have an innate drive to consider the world knowable and predictable, one can see this in the behavior of any young child, who is forming concepts about the way the world works when he picks something up and sticks it in his mouth and bites or bangs a stick on the edge of a table over and over again.  Clearly this tendency to consider the world knowable and predictable is overwritten in most people by the time they are young teens and have become convinced of the pointlessness of life, an ever fluctuating ‘reality’ and hopelessness in the face of the universe. 

 

“This is, of course, a conclusion highly repugnant to the classical Objectivist model. Ayn Rand regarded human intelligence as starting from a blank slate--tabula rasa--with no instinct, inborn behavior patterns, or "original sin." The conclusions I have reached would have been abhorrent to her. However, Ayn Rand was also the one who said, "nothing can alter the truth and nothing can take precedence over that act of perceiving it, which is thinking."

I am surprised that Rand said that, and did not know it until now.  It seems obvious, we can even look back further, to Aristotle, who made the obvious point:

 

All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsion, habit, reason, passion, and desire”

 

We clearly start off with ingrained behavior, primarily that of figuring out the way the world works as quickly as possible.  Beyond that it becomes social habits and appeals to authority, but all of these have the ability to be overcome by a rational and well informed choice. 

 

Some thinkers, such as Robert Wright [The Moral Animal] and Jared Diamond [The Third Chimpanzee], take the position that our innate drives are mostly evil. Even when we are "altruistic,"

 

I would suggest Matt Ridley as a good, more rational read on the subject than Diamond or Wright.

 

The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation
by Matt Ridley

 

And

 

The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt Ridley (Paperback)

Again, Excellent article, thanks!

Michael F Dickey


Post 2

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
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I think there is a slight mis-understanding here regarding the 'tabula rasa' of what Rand said.. to begin with, while she indeed said man is born as such, it was within the context of man as having a specific nature, not as being one with infinite mallability... this would accord with the genetic influences as proscribed.....

Post 3

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Ron, Beautiful article. It addresses many issues and provided much food for thought. I agree that objectivism could benefit from being a bit more social and I am a one-girl evangelical army promoting the cause in Chicago. I hope to start a church soon so I never have to pay taxes.  : )
Why is Objectivism so repellant to women? It was founded by a woman. It is promoted by fabulous Romantic novels with attractive female protagonists. It advocated liberation of females from traditional strictures back when modern feminism was scarcely an embryo.
Do you really want me to answer that question? Feminism is so embedded in our society. I don't agree with the traditional feminism, but rather think the focus should be on individual rights, rather than gender, ala i-feminists. Objectivist philosophy has nothing new to say to women and seems to be in a time warp when it comes to social issues. It is not socially progressive enough for many women.  Like I've said in another thread, had I read The Fountainhead before Atlas Shrugged, I probably would not be an objectivist today.

You were right about objectivism not seeming very family friendly. When people start going on about altruism and seem to imply that empathy and things such love of your family or partner are altruistic...or even something less the selfish virtue that it is, it gets on my last nerve. There are too many vulcans in the movement. Loosen up a little, guys and make room for the women.


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Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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Just an FYI, from the profile that was set-up for Mr. Merrill here on SOLO.  Adam, I hope you don't mind my copying this here for everyone's reference.

What is a dead white man doing on SOLO? Before he died in 1998, Ron Merrill asked me (Adam Reed) to publish his work on the Web. I maintain an archive of his work, but readers new to Objectivism are not likely to look for it. So, in the spirit of Ron's request, I am posting some of his works here on SOLO.
Jason


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Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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Kat wrote:
... had I read The Fountainhead before Atlas Shrugged, I probably would not be an Objectivist today.
I find that comment both interesting and puzzling.  A local entrepreneurial female Objectivist I know gives her lady friends copies of The Fountainhead using the following sales pitch: "This is a passionate love story."  Evidently Kat got a less positive "sense of life" from the novel.

I agree with the complaint of the excessive number of "Vulcans" involved in Objectivism who seem more concerned with arguments over minutiae than with applying rationality toward purposeful productiveness so as to earn an authentic sense of pride -- three major virtues that benefit any consistent practitioner regardless of unchosen traits like gender, race, etc.


Post 6

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Luther: But perhaps it is the way this Love Story is constructed that does not appeal to women, because perhaps they have the feeling that either the woman is not strong enough or too apathic. But, hey, I am not a woman, so what do I know about that ;)

I have a different question regarding this text, because it starts with a paragraph saying:

Some people, especially trained scientists, pay lip service to objectivity. But if you probe more deeply, you will almost always find that even they have an implicit feeling that, in some sense, reality is subjective. They will tell you that science consists only of theories, and that theories may be falsified, but never proved true. They will tell you that what we think we know is only the current "paradigm," and that some day a "paradigm shift" will take place, and today's truths will become obsolete because people will cease to believe them.

This is what makes me etchy, because there is a so-called paradigm shift that has partaken several times in history. There were the ideas of Einstein that brought about a change in mechanics and there was Galileo Galilei turning around science and philosophy.

I grant that it is in many way only a new discovery rather than a destruction of things in regard to Einstein, but sometimes, as with the Atom-model of the Democrit, we see that it is false.
There are truthes on the way to an absolute truth that have to be seen as intermediate truthes in order to be useful but not yet perfect. So, the term absolute truth is relative in scientific terms, just take the number pie, which you can define up to smaller numbers, if you get more powerful equipment.

That's why I have the idea that some theories might show up to be faulty or simply false, but others will prove to be right.
This is the capital problem I have with absolute truth, which is even in physics hard to define....


Post 7

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Adam,
I wonder can you provide a short bio of Ron Merrill? You see I know nothing about him except that you fell in love with his wife and became father of his son! (Apology to others who are more knowledgeable on the subject...)


Post 8

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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Adam, I second what Hong wrote. A short bio would be (esp from you) good.

John

Post 9

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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Hong,

You got things in the wrong order. Ron and I were close friends, we lived in the same dorm as undergraduates at MIT, and then shared an apartment as graduate students at the University of Oregon. I was Best Man at Ron's wedding to Yoon, which in European culture means I took on an obligation to look after their children if Ron died before his children were grown. Then the computer disk on which Ron kept his unpublished work crashed a few months before he died, and I was working on retrieving the content already when Ron asked me to publish it on the Web. So I was already taking care of Ron's daughter Emily, and of his son Brian, and of his manuscripts before I fell in love with his widow.

I'm rather pressed for time right now, but I will post a short biography of Ron within the next few months.

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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There are several problems with this article, but they would take another article of almost the same size to address.  So I will address the particularly monstrous ideas presented as the author's conclusion.

 

Here is Mr. Merrill's conclusion:

 

"What it amounts to is that Objectivism needs to learn something from the way a successful church operates. It provides social support and reinforcement for its members. There is an element of mutual assistance and loyalty. The learning process is not only intellectual, but highly focused on ethical issues in daily life. People attend in family units, and the church provides assistance in bringing up their children to follow the principles they believe in."

 

Am I the only person here who thinks that thinks that the idea of "evangelical" Objectivism is silly and disgusting?  While there is nothing wrong with Objectivist organizations (like SOLO) and the desire for association with like minded people the NEED for "social validation" for one's ideas and principles is entirely antithetical to the Randian approach.  The church is, by its nature a collectivist organization.   It is an organization based upon people's desire not to understand but to BELIEVE.  There is no need to back up one's arguments with logic in such an atmosphere.  There is a set dogma, and a group of willing participants supporting each other’s DESIRE TO HAVE FAITH in that dogma. 

 

As Mr. Merrill points out, in these churches "the learning process is not only intellectual, but highly focused on the ethical issues of daily life."  So for the sake of those social mimickers who don't want to think but just want guidance (to be told what to do) this Objectivist church would provide them with answers and social validation.  It would be an organization for second handers, lead by the same exact people who would have been the religious clergy in Christianity or Islam had they not read Atlas Shrugged and decided that its lessons could be converted into a dogmatic religion and thus place them in a position of authority.

 

Luckily, at least based upon my experience with the individualists here at SOLO, I don't think such a monstrosity could ever be tolerated by such people.  Let me wrap up here with a few good quotes from Ayn Rand who makes the point more clearly.  These are from The Art of Nonfiction pages 27-30. 

 

“First you need to understand that there is no such thing as Objectivism or any other philosophy.  Philosophy is the study of the fundamental nature of reality…. Too many Objectivists ask themselves, “What do I have to feel?” instead of, “What do I feel?” and if they need to judge a situation their approach is…. “What should I think?” instead of, “What do I think?”  This is the childhood remnant of anyone who to some extent was influenced either by the religion of the culture or, later in college by Platonism.”

 

“Philosophy cannot give you a set of dogmas to be applied automatically.  Religion does that—and unsuccessfully.  The dogmatic Objectivist desperately tries to reduce principles to concrete rules that can be applied automatically, like a ritual, so as to bypass the responsibility of thinking and moral analysis.  These are “Objectivist” ritualists.  They want Objectivism to give them what a religion promises, namely, ten or one hundred commandments, which they can apply without having to think about or judge anything.”

 

 

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 3/31, 11:28am)


Post 11

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

I doubt that Ron would have disagreed with the substance of anything you wrote. Yes, philosophy is different from religion, and social institutions that promote living according to one's philosophy will have differences from, as well as similarities to, social institutions that promote living according to a religion. But, contrary to the counterfactual fixations that some adherents of Objectivism indulge in, the social nature of the human animal demands such institutions - and it is time Objectivists designed and established local social institutions accordingly. If we don't, such social institutions will emerge without the benefit of objective design. Like the "Collective" of second-handers that agglutinated around Ayn Rand herself, such undesigned institutions will partake of the worst aspects of religious cults, without necessarily providing their members with the positive benefits of deliberate social organization.

Post 12

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Jason. 

Someone even wrote recommending Ridley, a proponent of pragmatism who believes man is, by nature, tribal.

Adam, you can lead a horse to water ... but,  I find it hard to believe that Howard Roark would be willing to play your reindeer games. He was, after all, a 'Vulcan'.

(Edited by Robert Davison on 3/31, 1:25pm)


Post 13

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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Jason, Robert,

I left a church when I was 15 because I could not believe in what they were teaching and what they believed in. I liked many of the people there and I felt a loss when I left. If they had based their premises on reason and objectivity, and hadn't offended my sense of reason with what I considered a bunch of fairy tales, I would have never left. There were many good people there. Hard working, honest, principled in many ways. They had just spent their entire lives believing that God was the explanation for everything they didn't understand. And virtually everyone they cared about believed the same.

Now, if there were a group of people that wanted to get together and socialize and talk about objectivist principles and share ideas on how to improve our personal flourishing [as Luther puts it] I don't care if you call it an "Objectivist Church" or a "Confluence of Assholes", I would like to attend. The tax breaks are better if you call it a 'church', however.

About "the NEED for "social validation", see Nathaniel Branden for discussion on the importance of psychological visibility for our personal happiness.

Post 14

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 2:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jason Quintana, I found your post provocative, but in a good way.  Please help me to understand, as SOLO Local Club Coordinator, what risks -- if any -- a local Objectivist Club would experience similar to those you identified with churches.  A SOLO poll solicited some months ago suggested members of a given Objectivist Club most desire friendship, romance and knowledge via that venue.  I would say all of these social values together can offer moral support for those struggling to move from mystical to rational ways of being.  I certainly would have benefitted greatly had I met seasoned Objectivists in 1988 who could have saved me years of struggling with certain concepts and applications of our philosophy.  Mortimer Adler said it best when asked how best to understand a Great Book: "Read and discuss."

Do you think that an Objectivist Club runs a strong risk of turning into a church?


Post 15

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Adam -- I think that the SOLO website is a perfect example of what you are talking about.  A good local group would have similar components. 

Mike -- Social validation for a well argued position or a job well done is incredibly rewarding.  It is something that has been honestly earned.  But as thinking, rational people we MUST be prepared to go it alone when necessary.  The important question here is "Are my actions and beliefs based upon a desire to please or appease other people or are they based upon a desire to improve my life or to stand up for what I believe to be objectively correct?"  If I my motives are of the first sort then I am lacking in integrity.

Luther -- It is a fine line to be sure.  Objectivism is first a method of thinking.  It is a way of making sense out of existence through integrating conceptual abstractions.  Because of this I think an emphasis has to be placed upon intellectual method rather then presenting the philosophy as a set of rules and "beliefs".   There is a difference between making a decision to agree (for whatever arbitrary reason) with the beliefs held by Ayn Rand or Luther Setzer and understanding and utilizing the philosophy of Objectivism as a tool for evaluating beliefs.   This distinction must be clear or else Objectivism runs the risk of becoming a religion as described by Ayn Rand in the quotes I posted above.  If a group's general orientation is kept in line with what I just discussed it does not run the risk of becoming a Church, though it will exclude those who have a hard time thinking in terms of logic and philosophical abstractions.  Beyond that, there is of course nothing wrong with having a group of Objectivist friends getting together simply to socialize.  If I were to belong to a group like this I would prefer it to be as laid back as possible. 

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 3/31, 4:03pm)


Post 16

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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I don’t agree with Ron’s basic thesis but I like the guy’s attitude. Here’s a guy I would have like to have known. Thanks for the article, Adam. I'll have to check out the link to his work.

Post 17

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
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I probably would not have read this ultra-long article if it were not because of kat’s post. The topics of family and woman caught my attention. Also Ron Merill’s assessment that “there is only a limited pool of "potential Objectivists" in the population, and that we have pretty much saturated this market” is also an interesting one.

 

I recently finished reading Barbara’s biography of Rand. It actually gives a lot of insights into Rand’s own attitude toward family matters, even though her formal writings rarely deal with the issue. Rand left her home and family at age 20, an usually rebellious age for many people. However, as soon as she settled down in the US and became financially capable, the first thing she set to do was to arrange to bring her whole family over, which, tragically was not realized. When she later found her sister, the joy she felt and all the things she’d done to bring her sister over demonstrate to me that she was just so normally human, or is that humanly normal?

 

Ayn Rand didn’t have any children, and I came to believe that it was not entirely by choice. For many years, Ayn was the main bread earner for her family and she was very responsible and independent. She worked full time at her day jobs and could only write her own novels in the evenings and off-days. When she finally achieved financial security after the publication of The Fountainhead, Ayn was already over 40. I can’t help but imagine what would happen if Frank had been more manly and had been able to take care of Ayn, would Ayn then chose to have children? She might or might not. We would never find out now. Though my gut feeling is that she probably would.

 

Ayn’s family tragedy must have taken a toll on her psychologically. But she obviously did not dwell on it, instead she went ahead and forged her philosophy that dealt with every other issues. Although I don’t think family life is in conflict with Objectivist’s basic tenets, an examination of family ethics in the context of Objectivism is clearly long over due.






Post 18

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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As a female member of SOLO, I feel like I am obliged to answer, or at least attempt to answer the question “Why is Objectivism so repellant to women?”

 

But my answer is that I don’t really know. I am not repelled by it. Actually I am a sucker of it. In Rand’s novels, her female heroines are man’s equal in every way, except, um, in physical strength. Perhaps such female character is still an ideal too high for most women today?


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Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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I think Objectivism is so repellent to women because it goes against what most every woman is raised to think.  We are supposed to be emotionally-driven, child-hungry people, after all, and Rand's ideas are a direct confrontation to that doctrine.  As someone who never bought into that concept, I was giddy to read words so wonderful from another female, because I found feminists repulsive.

I found Dagny Taggart delightfully refreshing because she was my kind of woman.  Rather than focusing on group hugs and baby production, she was building an empire.  It never occurred to her that she couldn't play with the big boys because she was a female -- rather than being a feminist, she was simply a productive individual.  I had hoped to find similar strong women in Objectivist circles, but aside from a few rare (and wonderful) exceptions, this has not been the case.  I've stopped holding my breath.  :) 

It is also odd for me to read here that Rand was not family friendly.  I think that Galt, Rearden, Francisco and Dagny were very much a family -- by choice.  Their bonds were stronger than any formed by blood.  So were Roark, Mallory, Wynand and Dominique.  The scene in the little work shack is a poignant one.  (Note that the male to female ratio is also quite on target.  Perhaps Rand had the gift of foresight?)  ;)

(Edited to correct inexcusable typo.)

(Edited by Jennifer Iannolo on 4/01, 8:13am)


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