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Post 40

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 5:19amSanction this postReply
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Mike Erickson wrote: "Could you describe the ethics of your genetic individualist? Is a "sense" of ethics also a genetic trait? What of a genetic individualist with no ethics?   ... Except for solo, I've always been strongly group averse."

Tough questions and I don't know.  I suppose that an individual with no innate sense of ethics would be a "sociopath," but that might just be a tribalist label.  I don't know, but I have thought about it, as you have.

Again, the nature/nurture argument is eternal.  When you consider siblings in the same household versus twins separated at birth, you have to ask some deep questions.  I don't know the answers.  I don't even know the questions.  But the problem is readily apparent.

ME: A "cultural" gene pool, so to speak? The posts here at solo could very well outlive us all, for instance?

So Richard Dawkins of The Selfish Gene would have us believe.  It is one of my motivations for writing.

I am pretty social, but I wear out my welcome.  So, I move on to the next group. Alpha male Perigo and his strongarm Rowlands figure that will be not a minute too soon.

(And totally off topic, has anyone else noticed that David Baker looks like Mr. Incredible.)




Post 41

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
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Dean Michael wrote:

To hear a faither complain about scientists believing in a "baseless" idea such as evolution is at first funny, but then it saddens me.

Michael Dickey wrote:
Huh?  Whats this guy doing quoting creationist propaganda?  Are there objectivist creationists out there?

As to these comments: Dean Michael, evolution is one species changing into another.  There is no proof for it.  Natural selection is another matter.  Your comment is typical of academe, knee jerk and defensive.  It implies a faith based belief in whatever Science says at the moment.  Science is not always correct, for example, the first Coelacanth was netted in the 1930s and examples of the 'fish' kept popping up all through the 40s and 50s.  Science denied its existence well into the 60s insisting that it was extinct.  Wegener who theorized that the continents drifted said so in the 20s, he was ostracized, deprived of his career and livlihood, and died in abject poverty.  The theory only became respectable in the late 60s.  Continue to guard the faith, I am not a 'faither'.

Mickey, I am not a creationist.  Nor is this creationist propaganda as far as I know.  Is Mary Leaky a creationist?




Post 42

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 11:17amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

What alternate theory of speciation do you subscribe to?


Post 43

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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Kernon,

I subscribe to none.  What appears to happen is that at the end of a geological era many species suddenly become extinct and new species just as suddenly appear.  I don't know what to make of it.


Post 44

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison,
You said "evolution is one species changing into another..."

Strictly speaking, this is wrong. Evolution means change, not specifically speciation.

You then said "...There is no proof for it."  

Although we have not observed speciation directly, there are ample evidence to support the evolution theory of it. If one accept that mutations do occur within species, it doesn't require that much of a leap to derive at the mechanism of speciation. One scenario is Allopatric Speciation: the formation of two or more species often requires geographical isolation of subpopulations of the species. The mutations accumulated independently in each subpopulation may prevent successful cross-breeding between them and thus lead to the creation of new species. Would you have any problem with this scenario?


Post 45

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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Not if you could offer proof in the form of a specific example.

Post 46

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
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Lance,
Without women, there would be no life.

I can't argue with that, Hong. : )


Post 47

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,
Not if you could offer proof in the form of a specific example.
What do you mean by "proof"?

So you do have a problem with allopatric speciation. Can you specify exactly which part(s) do you have problem with?

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 4/03, 5:09pm)


Post 48

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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A multi-part article has been sent in on this issue of evolution, as there have been a few others inquiring on it.... hopefully it will answer some questions [ whenever it gets published]....

Post 49

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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Zhang,

The part where you can give no example to show that allotropic speciation ever occurs.


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Post 50

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,
You didn't ask for examples (there are numerous), you asked for "proof".


Post 51

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 7:38amSanction this postReply
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Zhang:

An example would be proof.  It is an interesting speculation, nothing more.  There is no proof anywhere that one species 'evolves' into another species, none.


Post 52

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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Robert,
If you can not distinguish such concepts as "example", "evidence", and "proof", there is no point for me to engage in any further discussion with you on this topic.

To others,
The development of many branches of modern biological sciences such as genetics, molecular biology, genomics, computational biology and bioinformatics, have so far all unambiguously consistent with the evolution theory that Darwin proposed nearly 200 years ago. There are many details (such as mutation rates, species explosions, etc.) that need to be better understood, but modern sciences have only re-enforced the fundamentals of the Evolution theory. Examples of speciation can be found in the link I provided before: Speciation, such as Darwin's Finches and House mice on the island of Madeira .


Post 53

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Hong,

Thanks for the information.  There's another reason why I'm glad you're a member of this site.

Jason


Post 54

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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Zhang,

You are confusing natural selection with evolution.


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Post 55

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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I have been chomping at the bit to write something on this thread for a while now. So finally, here goes:

WHAT A FUCKING GREAT ARTICLE!

I use the phrase of taking my Objectivist glasses off and looking, then putting them back on. Well look here:
If I encounter one duck, and it quacks--well, maybe it's a freak. If I look at several ducks, and they all quack--well, maybe their quacking is due to a disease. If I continue by examining dozens of local ducks, and they all quack--well, maybe somebody taught them to quack. But when I look into the matter thoroughly, and find that ducks in their hundreds and thousands and millions, domestic and wild, from all over the world, all quack--the most compelling hypothesis is that quacking is in the biological nature of ducks.
THAT is the only way I have been able to derive practical value out of Objectivism. It must stand up to the reality test.

If we look at Altruism like that, instead of from the perspective of Ayn Rand's overkill (which I believe was necessary at the time she wrote), we will no longer call empathy "Altruism." We will see that empathy is simply an emotion and not a philosophical principle for living. Empathy is a true part of our psychological makeup and - I suspect - results in lower self-esteem if repressed - at the very least it makes people really grumpy. Altruism, as Rand properly points out, is an evil philosophy. (The way Altruism hijacks this emotion actually would be another good article.)

Human beings are social animals. Even Objectivists. All you have to do is look around. No need to derive that from "non-initiation of force" or "axiomatic concepts" or whatever. Just look. There is an awful lot of quacking going on in the world.

I am sorry that Ron is no longer with us. I would have loved to have known him.

Michael


Post 56

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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Kat said:
Like I've said in another thread, had I read The Fountainhead before Atlas Shrugged, I probably would not be an objectivist today.

Sorry I missed your comment elsewhere, Katdaddy, but curiosity is killing me. What did you find offensive in The Fountainhead? If you've elaborated somewhere else on the site, just give me directions.

Becky

Post 57

Monday, April 4, 2005 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,
When you said "evolution is one species changing into another...", it showed that you don't even know what "evolution" means. And I have in nowhere even started talking about natural selection. I am done with this non-discussion.   



Post 58

Tuesday, April 5, 2005 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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Michael, thank you again for saving me so much typing. I really had egg on my face after talking to the dead here. As always you are spot on. *purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*

Becky, there is another discussion thread about the Strange Passage in the Fountainhead where a bit of discussion was going on. Basically, I do not put Dagny and Dominique in the same category. Dagny is a much stronger role model for women. She oozes competence, intelligence and integrity.

Dominique sees the good as well, but does everything in her power to destroy it. She gets by in life on her charm and good looks. I don't see her as being a heroic at all. I think she is a twisted, phoney and destructive bitch. Her games with Roark are pathetic. Why would a woman attack a man and then screw him afterwards?  Either make love or make war. Don't do both. But that's just my humble opinion. Call me quirky.

Dagny on the other hand wanted to bring down Galt, but that was more of a heroic effort. He was actually trying to destroy her world and it was more a matter defending a world which she had not given up on. She admired the good for being good rather than trying to destroy the good.


Post 59

Tuesday, April 5, 2005 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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Katdaddy said:
Dominique sees the good as well, but does everything in her power to destroy it. She gets by in life on her charm and good looks. I don't see her as being a heroic at all. I think she is a twisted, phoney and destructive bitch. Her games with Roark are pathetic. Why would a woman attack a man and then screw him afterwards?  Either make love or make war. Don't do both. But that's just my humble opinion. Call me quirky.
If this is how you see the character of Dominique, I can see why you didn't like the novel.
Dagny is a much stronger role model for women.
Do you consider Howard Roark to be a role model for women?

Thanks,
Glenn


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