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Post 0

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 5:22amSanction this postReply
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human beings are treated by environmentalists as some kind of fungus or virus.

If only they were thought of so highly.


Post 1

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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Right on, Tibor.

Those afflicted with environ-Mental disorder fail to recognize that rational, volitional consciousness is the source of all the value that has ever existed (or will ever exist).

Ed

Post 2

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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Husman nesting grounds, ha! Nice one.

Post 3

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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Isn't freedom  looked on as a form of  (cultural)  imperialism? Tibor Machan,  you also advocate imperialism so not *all* forms imperialism are bad.

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Post 4

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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Freedom is a biological imperative for the flourishing of being human, not a 'cultural' manifestation - that's 'multicultural' crap...

Post 5

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
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Correction (from my post 1 wording):

Change:
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... rational, volitional consciousness is the source of all the value that has ever existed (or will ever exist).
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... to:
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... rational, volitional consciousness is the source of all the moral (ie. prescriptive) value that has ever existed (or will ever exist).
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Thank you Tibor, for making that more clear to me.

Things can be a 'value' (ie. things that they act to gain or keep) to unconscious organisms, such as plants, but all values that involve a behavioral "choice" -- such as all that of which the environ-Mental folks speak -- are human-originated, human-bound, and even human-centered.

Choice-making agents ought, necessarily, to benefit from their choice-making. A greater principle never existed.

Ed

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Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
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I think you're right, Robert.  Freedom is a biological imperative and thus universal - but it was also a Western cultural discovery. That is why anti-modernity intellectuals smear modernity as Western cultural imperialism. We ought to embrace what they lament against.  We are proud cultural imperialists for Freedom.  

Post 7

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 1:13amSanction this postReply
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Robert and Wayne, I agree with you.

Freedom is a requirement for human development. In this respect, I shamelessly declare that my imperialist "temptation" is the empire of freedom for humanity.

Best wishes,

Joel Català
(Edited by Joel Català on 7/07, 2:04am)


Post 8

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 10:40pmSanction this postReply
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I think there should be an article written about the menace of the appeasers of post modern Academia.  Some of those appeasers are generally on our side.   

Post 9

Friday, July 8, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Wayne, the great Victor Davis Hanson does have something brilliantly written about that. Possibly you will love this article: "Reconsidering tenure".

His personal website, in where he has all his online writtings, is this one.

Best wishes,

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 7/08, 10:18am)


Post 10

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 6:33amSanction this postReply
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Imperialism involves coercing people into accepting one's purposes as their own. Championing individual liberty, the right to freedom, or the like doesn't qualify as imperialism since no coercion is involved. 

Post 11

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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If only freedom were a biological imperative, like circulating one's blood flow, we would all be much better off. Sadly, it isn't--it's, instead, a learned though very general value to be sought and fought for. Too many people neglect it, so clearly it isn't hard wired for us.

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Post 12

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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Too many neglect thinking - does that make it not hard-wired?  For a human being to flourish, freedom is a necessity - in other words, a biological imperative...

Post 13

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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Nice article Tibor.

Your approach is interesting - that Imperialism is a personal expansionist attitude of individuals, not just an expansionist policy of some government or other.

Spot on.

Michael


Post 14

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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"Championing individual liberty, the right to freedom, or the like doesn't qualify as imperialism since no coercion is involved. "

That depends. Liberty has prevented all kinds of evil people from continuing to harm others. The spread of  individual rights  throughout the world is (even in it's mixed state) a form of imperialism to those who oppose it. An occupying army must use force to restore the rule of law. Freedom *can* be about forcing  *some* people into eventually accepting it. To say otherwise is to ignore history.


Post 15

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Wayne,

You are making the same mistake as those who confuse retaliation with the initiation of force. The rule of law is the restriction of the use of force to retaliation. An occupying army, by definition, initiates the use of force.

You can't legitimately force someone to accept freedom. All you can do is to demonstrate, by retaliation, the consequences of their initiation of force. They learn or they don't.

Post 16

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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"You are making the same mistake as those who confuse retaliation with the initiation of force. "

A ridiculous and vacuous assertion. Retaliation is force, as you make clear, and that's what I'm defending.  I'm no neophyte to the cause of liberty.  

"The rule of law is the restriction of the use of force to retaliation. An occupying army, by definition, initiates the use of force."

False.  Occupying a  dictatorship to restore the rule of law isn't the  initiation of force (e.g Israel occupying the Palestinians).  A dictatorship is, by defintion, a potential threat to freer nations. There is no right to enslave others. 

"You can't legitimately force someone to accept freedom. All you can do is to demonstrate, by retaliation, the consequences of their initiation of force. They learn or they don't."

Agreed. You've made my case for me. Force was used in retaliation.  There are many that do learn the consequences. It's also true that you can't force a  mind and a person has to accept liberty by their own volition.


Post 17

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 8:58pmSanction this postReply
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An occupying army is necessarily an initiation of force. Once the dictator is deposed the army's job is done. An occupying army controls what it occupies. That's what occupation is. Controlling people is no way to allow them freedom.

Post 18

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 11:46pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Rick here.

The only 2 justifications for occupation are either altruist-collectivist Team America: World Nanny, or Machiavellian/Straussian plunder -- ie. sacrificing self to others, or sacrificing others to self.

If folks in other countries don't accept the human responsibility of securing their own freedom (yes, this is an objective, universal, moral responsibility of humans), then they deserve -- via natural justice -- the consequences. Our moral code ought to involve a continual assassination of brutal leaders, anytime and everywhere we see fit -- but not the multi-national duties of a Billion-dollar Babysitter.

The fastest, best way to teach someone to ride a bike well -- is to take off the training wheels and let nature take its course. Some people need to fall down and hurt themselves more than others do -- but that is not my, or any other taxpayer's, problem.

The argument that: If we don't take care of them now, then they will "take care" of us later -- is a mere "feed-the-crocodile" fallacy (complete with a fear-for-your-lives kicker). It is a new substitution of fear for guilt, but it is still, from my perspective, a collectivist ploy to garner sacrifice.

I disagree with those (e.g. Kurt Eichert) who believe that contemporary world dynamics justify a wholesale dismissal of Rand's 4 main points regarding foreign policy. Kurt has not said this explicitly, but he doesn't need to.

Like Tibor and Michael, I believe that Imperialism (ie. forceful globalism) is not a "national good."
Ed

Post 19

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ed Thompson has written a great argument, but, alas, it's a straw man.  His argument hinges on "only 2 justifications for occupation". I'm not advocating either option. Israeli occupation of so-called Palestinian territory has been in the rational self interest of Israeli citizens.  Why doesn't he take on that example? I've been clear.  I'm advocating limited occupation, for the rational self interest of the occupier, not the false alternatives Ed Thompson alleges.This is what's necessary in this war against jihadist Islam  And, yes, "a continual assassination of brutal leaders, anytime and everywhere we see fit."

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