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Post 20

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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Roger,
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Yes, we can "learn to 'act otherwise,'" but only if we more strongly value doing so than the status quo.
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Roger, it sounds like you hold a subjective theory of value (an enthronement of acquired desires). Do you?


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And yes, we can use rational focus to validate or invalidate our values, but only if we more strongly value doing so than leaving our values the way they were.
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Roger, this appears contradictory to my characterization of your position above. Contradictions are always illuminative -- please comment.

In this case, you appear to -- at least implicitly -- acknowledge conscious, rational, volitional agency. In the above case however, your words insinuate -- indirectly, and probably even unintentionally -- that humans are beings 'alone and afraid, in a world they never made' (prisoners to both whim and circumstance).

Here's relevant Rand -- CUI 22 and 23 -- (Caps replace italics):

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... the good is neither an attribute of "things in themselves" nor of man's emotional states, but AN EVALUATION of the facts of reality by man's consciousness according to a rational standard of value ... validated by a process of reason ... THE GOOD IS AN ASPECT OF REALITY IN RELATION TO MAN ... it must be discovered, not invented, by man.
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... force is a monstrous contradiction which negates morality at its root by destroying man's capacity to recognize the good, i.e. his capacity to value.
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Hmpf!
Ed


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Post 21

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 12:57amSanction this postReply
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Ed Thompson wrote (quoting me):

> "Yes, we can "learn to 'act otherwise,'" but only if we more strongly value doing so
> than the status quo." Roger, it sounds like you hold a subjective theory of value (an
> enthronement of acquired desires). Do you?

Most people, including most Objectivists, have a combination of unreflectively held values and values arrived at explicitly according to some standard (rational or not). But what I said above applies even to those (hypothetical?) people who hold only rationally validated values and nothing else. It is an objective fact that your action at any given point in time must and will be to gain and/or keep the thing you most highly value and therefore desire at that point in time. For instance, if, at a given point in time, a person acts to g/k something he knows is harmful to him, rather than something he knows is beneficial to him, the former thing is what he most highly values and desires at that time, despite what he may claim about the latter thing. On the other hand, if that person acts to g/k the rationally validated value, then it must be because he values that thing more than he values something else. In other words, while people may at times "betray" their highest rational values, or their espoused highest values, they do not and cannot betray their highest values.

Remember, a value is not just what you espouse or aspire to gain/keep. It is what you actually act to gain/keep. So, in this context, a "higher" value is the one of two or more competing values that you actually act to gain/keep, and the other value(s) that you do not act to gain/keep is a "lower" value. Any other interpretation of "higher" and "lower" (such as rational = higher) is irrelevant to understanding the relative motivational power of what the person did vs. did not act for.

Here is the litmus test. If you have chosen something that you really think is a lower value to you than what you didn't choose, what could have possibly motivated you to do so? The only possible answer I can see is that you are getting an additional something else out of it, so that the supposed lower value is really not lower, because of being augmented by the additional something else. For instance, suppose someone chooses to give up a pleasurable vacation in order to "do his duty" and spend that time working on home repairs. An Objectivist might say that he has "sacrificed" a higher value (the pleasure of relaxation) for a lower value (duty). But why would he have done this, unless the supposed lower value, the duty, was actually augmented by some additional factor, such as the relief of having a backlog of needed repairs done or the pleasure of knowing his family has a safer or more comfortable place to live, etc.? I literally cannot conceive that duty alone would motivate a person to give up a supposedly higher value for a supposedly lower one. If it appears that a person has done so, I suggest that appearance is the result of an incomplete analysis of the situation. (In other words, I think that Rand's concept of "sacrifice" is invalid.)

> "And yes, we can use rational focus to validate or invalidate our values, but only if
> we more strongly value doing so than leaving our values the way they were."
> Roger, this appears contradictory to my characterization of your position above.
> Contradictions are always illuminative -- please comment. In this case, you appear
> to -- at least implicitly -- acknowledge conscious, rational, volitional agency. In the
> above case however, your words insinuate -- indirectly, and probably even
> unintentionally -- that humans are beings 'alone and afraid, in a world they never
> made' (prisoners to both whim and circumstance).

No. The two statements are parallel and meant to illuminate different kinds of choices and actions. In the first case, I am referring to how "learning to act otherwise" is conditional upon wanting to do so more than not learning to act otherwise. In the second case, I am referring to how validating (or invalidating) values by rational focus is conditional upon wanting to do so more than not validating (or invalidating) values by rational focus. In each case, conscious, rational, volitional agency is involved. However, the action that the agent chooses is the one aimed at the thing that the agent values and desires more highly in that situation. If he didn't value or desire it more highly in that situation, he wouldn't act to gain/keep it! That is how volition works, as I see it. Barring disease, mental disability, or force, we have the power to direct our actions, but only in keeping with our strongest values/desires -- conditional volition + value determinism.

> Here's relevant Rand -- CUI 22 and 23 -- (Caps replace italics):
> "... the good is neither an attribute of "things in themselves" nor of man's emotional
> states, but AN EVALUATION of the facts of reality by man's consciousness
> according to a rational standard of value ... validated by a process of reason ...
> THE GOOD IS AN ASPECT OF REALITY IN RELATION TO MAN ... it
> must be discovered, not invented, by man." [and] "... force is a monstrous
> contradiction which negates morality at its root by destroying man's capacity to
> recognize the good, i.e. his capacity to value."

Volition operates in order to initiate one's actions in accordance with one's strongest values, which may or may not be rationally validated (i.e., good). However, volition cannot so operate when another person is using force against one. That is how I relate the conditionality of volition to the Rand quotes you gave.

> Hmpf!

I feel your disdain!  :-)

Best to all,
REB

(Edited by Roger Bissell on 7/19, 12:59am)


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Post 22

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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The "just because" is something Bissell invented--nothing in my post or anything Rand has said about free will has a "just because" clause in it.

Bissell shows his hand when he asks "What motivates that choice?" This is precisely the kind of question that arises from a reductive materialist, exclusively efficient causal framework. The assumption, which is unproven, is that something apart from the person had to have motivated the choice, that the individual person cannot be a cause of it, that something apart from the individual person must have been the cause. This is assumed, not proven, so when a person acts badly, for example, it is deemed as a given that the act was caused by something other than that person. This is how individual responsibility is dropped from morality and law and explanation, in terms of some (promised?) efficient causation, is substituted for it. But the evidence for agent causation is strong, manifest, among other places, in these discussions where the parties are exhibiting it all over the place.The idea that they are doing what they are doing because they value something--like finding the truth about some matter--fails to account for why they value that goal rather than another, alternative one. Unless credit is given for someone's having chose a value, as a result of having chosen to inquire into what's what in the world, there is no adequate and coherent account of the actions that result. It's just this factor producing that factor, ad infinitum, with no initial cause in play. That pretty much robs us of all originality, all creativity, all inventiveness and renders human conduct but a little movement in an everlasting flow of impersonal forces. And here, just as in the case of the slow or rapid movement of a river, there is no right, no wrong, just whatever has to be--including about this very topic. And that is simply incoherent--it renders what we are doing pointless.

In a universe with a highly diverse ontology, of many types and kinds of beings, the kinds of causes are bound, also, to be varied. One such cause that is reasonable to take seriously is what human beings with their very complicated minds are capable of, namely, agent causation. There is nothing mystical about this and to keep up labeling it as such as not an argument but an effort to undermine the idea by a process of guilt by association, as it were. If we label agent causation "mystical" (Bissell) or "spooky" (Dennett), we spare ourselves the trouble of having to actually think through whether such a thing can and does exist in the world.



Post 23

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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Are animals also agents?  What about books and chess playing computers?  Planets and stars?

The real problem with "agent causation" is that its sole purpose in philosophy is to justify libertarian freewill.  At least, the reductive materialist has done something to advance science in the last century.  Hopefully, one day, the defenders of "agent causation" will do the same.


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Post 24

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Tibor Machan wrote: "The "just because" is something Bissell invented--nothing in my post or anything Rand has said about free will has a "just because" clause in it."

Tibor, I assume that you are referring to me, Roger Bissell (remember me -- your friend of 35 years?), rather than SOLO's editor, Andrew Bissell...

Rand's and Peikoff's "could have done otherwise, just because" is no more an invention than Kant's "ought to do something, period." It is just a way of stating the categorical (rather than conditional) nature of Rand's and Peikoff's view of volition.

Let me say it more clearly: when you assert that you could have done otherwise than you did, and that that ability is not conditioned upon your having valued doing otherwise than you did, but simply upon an arbitrary choice, then you are advocating the categorical volition model.

Peikoff, with Rand's approval, stated this view of volition quite openly, when he said that the choice to focus "is a first cause within a consciousness which cannot be reduced to or explained by anything earlier or more fundamental," and that "you cannot try to explain the choice to focus in terms of a person's values or ideas." In other words, nothing determines whether you are going to focus or not -- not even your valuing focusing more than not focusing in a given situation. This is nonsense. Focusing is not an arbitrary act. It is motivated and determined by one's valuing it more than not focusing. If one values focusing more than not focusing -- and one is not incapacitated by disease, injury, or coercion -- then one will (and must) focus.

Tibor continues: "Bissell shows his hand when he asks "What motivates that choice?" This is precisely the kind of question that arises from a reductive materialist, exclusively efficient causal framework. The assumption, which is unproven, is that something apart from the person had to have motivated the choice, that the individual person cannot be a cause of it, that something apart from the individual person must have been the cause."

That is not what I assume or argue. See below!

Tibor: "This is assumed, not proven, so when a person acts badly, for example, it is deemed as a given that the act was caused by something other than that person. This is how individual responsibility is dropped from morality and law and explanation, in terms of some (promised?) efficient causation, is substituted for it. But the evidence for agent causation is strong, manifest, among other places, in these discussions where the parties are exhibiting it all over the place.The idea that they are doing what they are doing because they value something--like finding the truth about some matter--fails to account for why they value that goal rather than another, alternative one. Unless credit is given for someone's having chose a value, as a result of having chosen to inquire into what's what in the world, there is no adequate and coherent account of the actions that result. It's just this factor producing that factor, ad infinitum, with no initial cause in play."

Nothing in this presents any difficulty for my analysis of human choice. We pursue one goal rather than another, because we value it more highly than the other. Accounting for this value-preference is simple. If the reason that we value it more highly is because we engaged in a process of seeking the truth about some matter, then it is also true that we engaged in the truth-seeking process because we valued it more highly than not doing so! However, not all values arise from a process of rational deliberation. Some of them are wired-in to our nervous systems and readily assert themselves, if upbringing and circumstance have not beat them out of us. Seeking to understand (rather than to evade) is one of them. So, some of the things that we choose are the result of natural human drives, rather than a deliberative process. The "initial cause in play," the "first cause" in human choice and value is that kind of choices and values, which stem from earliest childhood -- not the arbitrary choice to focus "just because" (for no reason, motivation, preference, value, etc.).  

Nor does any of this present a difficulty for the status of morality on the perspective of value determinism. It is still the human being choosing and acting, and he is doing so by the constraint and empowerment of his highest values, which are part of his nature/attributes. Would you rather be held responsible for actions determined by an unmotivated, arbitrary choice -- or by a choice constrained and empowered by your highest operative value? I have no problem at all in casting my fate with the latter, and I would be highly suspicious of anyone who did have a problem with it.

Tibor: "In a universe with a highly diverse ontology, of many types and kinds of beings, the kinds of causes are bound, also, to be varied. One such cause that is reasonable to take seriously is what human beings with their very complicated minds are capable of, namely, agent causation. There is nothing mystical about this and to keep up labeling it as such as not an argument but an effort to undermine the idea by a process of guilt by association, as it were. If we label agent causation "mystical" (Bissell) or "spooky" (Dennett), we spare ourselves the trouble of having to actually think through whether such a thing can and does exist in the world."

Where have I denied agent causation? Where? I am saying that value determinism is how agent causation works! Look: an entity is its attributes, and what it is (what attributes it has) determines what it can and will do in a given situation. An entity cannot act in conflict with its attributes, its nature. That's simple Causality, which is inescapable. A human being is his body and his soul -- his soul being not an entity, but an attribute of the human being, one of its sets of capacities to act. And as Rand stated it, the soul is "the mind and its values." Thus, a human being (entity) cannot act in conflict with his values, i.e., his highest values in a given context (and this will not always be his espoused highest values). And that is all that I mean by "value-determinism." Value determinism is how agent causation or self-determinism works!

And please: value determinism is not some kind of efficient causation, where the values are little entities making our bodies go through certain actions. Our values are part of our attributes, our nature, that by the Law of Causality constrain (while empowering) our actions. And since they constrain (and empower) our actions in the pursuit of goals or ends, it is precisely final causaion (not efficient causation) that they involve. The efficient cause of our actions is not our values, but ourselves, the acting entities.

It is when self-determinism or agent-causation is divorced from value-determinism that models of agent-causation start to take on a "mystical" and "spooky" odor. How else are we to interpret someone's saying "Nothing made me focus, no dominant value or motive or desire, I just decided to, just because." Sounds a whole lot more like God's arbitrary cosmic whims, rather than something determined by one's strongest operative value. You focus not because you want to be moral, or to be happy, or because you desire it more than being unfocused, or for any reason -- just because you choose to. No reason, just a blind, arbitrary choice. That's Objectivism? Spare me! Yet, this is what we have been fed by Rand and Peikoff since at least the 1970s.

I am sorry that my terminology is offensive to Tibor, or that it strikes him as an attempt to evade grappling with the existence of volition. Nothing could be further from the truth! Volition exists! It's just conditional, not categorical.

Best to all,
REB


Post 25

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Roger,
It is when self-determinism or agent-causation is divorced from value-determinism that models of agent-causation start to take on a "mystical" and "spooky" odor. How else are we to interpret someone's saying "Nothing made me focus, no dominant value or motive or desire, I just decided to, just because." Sounds a whole lot more like God's arbitrary cosmic whims, rather than something determined by one's strongest operative value. You focus not because you want to be moral, or to be happy, or because you desire it more than being unfocused, or for any reason -- just because you choose to. No reason, just a blind, arbitrary choice.
The choice ain't arbitrary. Perhaps Aristotle's thrivalism supercedes Rand's survivalism here. Perhaps the ultimate value, the end in itself, is happiness (rather than merely practical physical survival as a kind of thing that you are). Perhaps there are non-physical constraints on living as the kind of thing we are (happiness desire being "hard-wired" into what it means to be human). Perhaps there are things which are necessary for all humans -- for their happiness (the necessary and natural desire for happiness + necessary hoops to jump through in order to pursue it).

This would appear to be a limitation on choice. It seems that you cannot "choose" unhappiness; that you could not will it for yourself, even if you mustered every ounce of fighting spirit -- the natural desire for happiness is categorical to humans. Well, if we can't choose the ultimate end (happiness) that we aim our action at (because it is objective and, therefore, discovered) what about the means? $64,000 question: What happens once we know one of the many means to our own happiness? Are we free to reject or ignore?

Ed


Post 26

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 2:38pmSanction this postReply
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Stephan Kinsella:
Our behavior is clearly a manifestation of the movement of the particles of our bodies. It seems to me undeniable that to have true volition, one's "mind" or "brain" as a whole must influence the motion of the particles that make it up. But it seems to me that this implies that if one were to examine on a subatomic level, the particles inside the brain, then take a given particle: its path must not be influenced solely by the 4 forces; if it is, then we are determined (or, at best, semi-random), not volitional.
Isn't this an example of the mind/body dichotomy? Doesn't it assume volition could not be implemented by one the 4 forces? Matter doesn't exist w/o energy and energy doesn't exist w/o matter. We regard our bodies and brains as mainly matter, but not our minds. Maybe we should regard our minds as mainly energy. This posits mind as physicalist but not "simply matter" and avoids the mind/body dichotomy. From a different perspective, the mind-body or mind-matter distinction is more an epistemological one rather than on ontological one. Of course, there is a lot that to be discovered about how the mind and body might interact.


Post 27

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
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Roger,
An Objectivist might say that he has "sacrificed" a higher value (the pleasure of relaxation) for a lower value (duty). But why would he have done this, unless the supposed lower value, the duty, was actually augmented by some additional factor, such as the relief of having a backlog of needed repairs done or the pleasure of knowing his family has a safer or more comfortable place to live, etc.? I literally cannot conceive that duty alone would motivate a person to give up a supposedly higher value for a supposedly lower one.
Sacrifice is the result of disarray and consequent derangement of someone's grasped hierarchy of value (though derangement might last a lifetime -- in cases where esteem has been destroyed). It is kind of like a magic trick, really: WHICH shell is the your quarter REALLY under? Through fraudulent -- or merely unfocused -- disarray (and then, derangement), we CAN act against our life and happiness. When this is done, we have sacrificed.

Ed


Post 28

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin:
>We regard our bodies and brains as mainly matter, but not our minds. Maybe we should regard our minds as mainly energy.

Hi Merlin

Unfortunately this remains within physicalism, as energy is accurately described by physics. Thus it does not avoid determinism. If we are able to make extremely accurate predictions about the way energy will behave in given circumstances, then we can, in principle, make the same accurate predictions as to your mind even if we don't know the right formulas yet. Therefore you have no free will, it is an illusion.(the same applies to the appeal to quantum theory, where your 'choices' are reduced to probalities, just like tossing a coin or rolling die) That's the problem. It's nasty.

regards
Daniel

Post 29

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 3:18pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin:
>Isn't this an example of the mind/body dichotomy?

It's a bit clearer to call it the mind/brain or self/brain dichotomy. Only if you consider that the 'mind' or 'self' *never* interacts with the brain, and remains separate from it and impotent, as in identity theory or epiphenomenalism, is it a true dichotomy. If you are an 'interactionist', like myself, then its not really an issue. Mind and brain act upon each other, with both upwards *and* downward causation effects. And I think such a position is perfectly permissible within Objectivism, as Rand is vague on the issue anyway. She says it is a serious mistake to confuse consciousness and existence, that they are two different things. (I assume she means *physical* existence, otherwise she's effectively saying consciousness doesn't exist).

- Daniel

Post 30

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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Physics? *ears perk up* Dagnabit, you guys have been discussing physics over here without me?

Maybe we should regard our minds as mainly energy.

Energy and matter are equivalent. Whether you regard the brain as matter or energy doesn't, um, matter. Beyond that all I'll say is: Nonphysical doesn't interact with physical. End of story.

Sarah

Post 31

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 4:50pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah:
>Whether you regard the brain as matter or energy doesn't, um, matter.

Or an "entity" or a 'process' or an 'attribute' etc. It doesn't matter, as Sarah says. The root of the question is: are your thoughts (your mind, rather than your brain) *in principle* finally determinable via physics, just as the movements of very distant stars or the probability of very tiny quantum interactions are determinable.

If you think so, you are, as far as I can see, a determinist. If not, not.

- Daniel

Post 32

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, this is all I'll say beyond what I've already said:

Daniel,
your mind, rather than your brain

This is an example of nonphsyical interacting with physical.

Sarah

Post 33

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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How do values get to be held without first starting to think things through and identifying them? Talk about mystery.

Post 34

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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Correction: I said energy and matter were equivalent. More accurately, there is a relation between energy and matter. Carry on.

Sarah

Post 35

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah writes:
>This is an example of nonphsyical interacting with physical.

Yes, and I realise you do not believe this is possible, and for very good reasons. I'm just pointing out the *downside* of a comprehensive physicalism - a downside that people aren't quite so eager to claim. As Stephan points out, it really boils down to strict determinism or 'spookiness'. Sorry, but there it is.

I am all too aware of that my dualist opinion is very much in the minority - even tho the arguments for it are, on examination, much better than you might first think.


- Daniel

Post 36

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Now this is all that I'll sa- aw, hell, I'm in the conversation now.

Daniel,

Just give it time. As has been discussed elsewhere, we don't know much about the brain so having a determined-spooky dichotomy isn't necessarily accurate. If you think you've got a decent argument for dualism I'd like to see it.

Sarah

Post 37

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel wrote:
I am all too aware of that my dualist opinion is very much in the minority - even tho the arguments for it are, on examination, much better than you might first think.
I have yet to hear an argument supporting dualism, other than hearing witness of mystical events-- which is extremely unreliable evidence. I think all you have is "We don't know how the mind works, so X must be true". Replace X with anything mystical or not part of the energy-matter reality as we know it. Appealing to ignorance is an extremely weak argument-- or rather, it is a logical fallacy. Lets hear your supporting arguments.

Post 38

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:13pmSanction this postReply
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Jetton: "Isn't this an example of the mind/body dichotomy? Doesn't it assume volition could not be implemented by one the 4 forces?"

Wow. I don't know what to say about this. Be "implemented" by? You can't mean the forces are acting beings that do this. So what can the comment possiby mean. Can you really not see that if the 4 forces govern the movment of particles, we are determined, not free?

"Matter doesn't exist w/o energy and energy doesn't exist w/o matter. We regard our bodies and brains as mainly matter, but not our minds. Maybe we should regard our minds as mainly energy. This posits mind as physicalist but not "simply matter" and avoids the mind/body dichotomy. From a different perspective, the mind-body or mind-matter distinction is more an epistemological one rather than on ontological one. Of course, there is a lot that to be discovered about how the mind and body might interact."

I have detected several times an ontological obsession among some people. They think that just because we have a name, or concept, for some"thing" or some phenomenon, so that we can say "it" "exists," then this "thing" has now been elevated to some "real" plane so that it's somehow "equivalent" to ... well, real things, like, my chair.

Consider this. You love your wife. Let's assume this is a fact. Now, "where" is the love? Who "owns" it? Do you see that asking such questions is just a confusion? I see people running. So "there is running," i.e., "running exists." Is the running "reduced" to human bodies? I don't konw, but it's a concept used to describe an action of human bodies over time. Just like "love" is a high-order concept that has to do with the way we interact with and regard and value others.

Post 39

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 12:05amSanction this postReply
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Dean writes:
>Appealing to ignorance is an extremely weak argument-- or rather, it is a logical fallacy.

I agree - and physicalists do it as much as anyone. Their argument seems to me to be roughly as follows:

"We just don't know how the brain works - but it must be physical, right?...obey some as yet unknown laws of physics...to suggest anything else is just too weird...and yet it must *also* avoid the determinism *laws of physics demand*...because I don't want to give up free will...and surely my thoughts aren't just the clockwork operations of physical forces, or a bunch of quantum probabilities....gee, it must be because there's something physical that doesn't obey the laws of physics, and *we just don't know what it is*".

If that isn't an appeal to ignorance, I don't know what is. Further, if you strip it right down, you're back with a similarly 'spooky' property, it just gets tagged as 'physical'! So we shouldn't overlook our ignorance in this field - it is overwhelming. We should just try not to appeal to it too much...;-)

Dean and Sarah:
>Lets hear your supporting arguments.

Certainly. First I will outline my position.

1. There is a wide spread of opinion on the mind/brain issue. Objectivism seems to have approximately the same spread of opinion as anyone else. Diana Mertz Brickell concludes her survey of the topic with:"The precise nature of a theory of mind compatible with Objectivism, however, has yet to be established."

So Obj or non, we're all in the same boat - we all are talking hypothetically.

2. As such, I consider the strict deterministic hypothesis - that is, the brain is basically just an incredibly complex computer or similar - quite credible. Not very nice, but quite credible. Because in my view, clearly algorithms do not have anything resembling 'consciousness' or 'free will'. Neither do the electrical currents in our brain, or the chemical reactions, any more than they do in a test tube. So unless I am to fly in the face of the all the evidence to date, if I was to be a consistent physicalist I should really *give up* free will, and perhaps consciousness itself.

I am reluctant to do this, plus there turn out to be some reasonable arguments for dualism, so I find myself a dualist* - for now. But I do not believe I could honestly claim to be a physicalist and to believe in 'free will'.

So now you know where I'm coming from.

Now, before I go much further, would you mind outlining your respective positions just so I know where you're coming from?

regards
Daniel

*actually, epistemologically we Popperians are *trialists* - even worse! - but we won't worry about that too much for now.





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