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Post 60

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 4:27amSanction this postReply
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Robert,


"Roger's target essay defends agent causality, as he reminded readers of this thread in one of his posts. My impression is that Roger structured the essay so as to practically hit the reader over the head with agent causality. So contrary to what you read or hear from a lot of analytic philosophers, including some of my colleagues, agent causality is not sufficient for incompatiblistic free will."

I don't think anything is sufficient for freewill except postulating it and seeing how far it gets you. I think that human beings are complex genetically and environmentally influenced robots. This view of human beings has lead to some of the best scientific research into human beings in the last 100 years at least. I'm still waiting on the defenders of agent causation to provide their scientific program for understanding Alzheimer's. It's odd how many libertarians talk around the evidence from cognitive science and other fields in psychology for a compatibilist view of volition based on the evolution of mental repertoires in human beings which address the problems we human beings face in trying to survive.

"Wouldn't the best way to handle this be a book discussion of Dennett's Elbow Room (or if the Dennettites regard it as a qualitative improvement, Dennett's second go-round with free will, in Freedom Evolves)? Dennett has presented a sustained argument, and it needs to be addressed as such."

Well, *Freedom Evolves* is a bit more complicated and presents some interesting critical reviews of the free will literature in philosophy and psychology.


If you've read the books - *Initiative* and *Elbow Room* - I'd be more than happy to discuss some of the merits and demerits of both of them. I've tried to review Machan's book a few times over the last few months, but every time I start writing, I begin to wonder what end is to be served by reviewing the book because I don't like reviewing material that requires my writing unsophisticated polemics. I believe that it takes someone seriously interested in surveying the literature in behavioral and molecular genetics to do a good book on free will.

I don't subscribe to [i]JARS[/i], so I don't know what the reviews there said. However, all determinism means to me is that human behavior is a proper subject of reductionist analysis. And I see libertarians as trying to be selective as to what can be reductively analyzed and what cannot be. It is this problem with selecting that drives compatibilism, and once again, it is the reason why I think that a belief in incompatibilist free will can be dangerous. Incompatibilist free willers like to dream up unrealistic schemes for human beings when they want to do so (like libertarian utopias), because their dreams do not always need to be tempered by a realistic analysis of the individual(s) in front of them. After all, it can all be done by volition!

You seem knowledgeable about the debate and I don't want to get so involved that I talk down to you.

I asked the question about agents because I wanted to see

1) whoever responded was taking an essentialist view of agents or a nominalist view of agents and
2) whoever responded was that human behavior was a proper subject of reductionist analysis.

(Ok, I actually asked the questions rhetorically).

Cheers,

Laj.


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Post 61

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:04pmSanction this postReply
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Laj,

I have not read all of your prior posts to SOLO on this general subject, so I am sure I am missing a few things.

But in your earlier post from this thread that I was commenting on, you pretty much equated agent causation with incompatibilist free will.  Although many philosophers also insist that there is no reason to posit the first unless you believe in the second, it sure looks as though you can have one without the other, as Roger has argued.  And if Roger, or someone else, has convinced you that there can be agent causation without incompatibilist free will, there's no harm in saying so.

There is, in any event, much about your position that I don't clearly understand.

all determinism means to me is that human behavior is a proper subject of reductionist analysis.
What kind of reductionist analysis?  Eliminative?  Ephiphenomenalistic?  Is top-down causation allowed?  Or would only bottom-up causation fit your notion of reductionist analysis?

Well, *Freedom Evolves* is a bit more complicated and presents some interesting critical reviews of the free will literature in philosophy and psychology.

If you've read the books - *Initiative* and *Elbow Room* - I'd be more than happy to discuss some of the merits and demerits of both of them.
What I am really hoping for not a single exchange of summary assessments, but a good, old-fashioned book discussion, at the rate of one or two chapters per week.  I'd be happy with either Elbow Room or Freedom Evolves as the target volume, though I'd need more time to assimilate the latter since I haven't read it before.  To evaluate Dennett's arguments properly, you need time to address the presuppositions that he addresses quickly and casually, as well as some that are merely implied by what he writes.

I'm not quite sure, in the following passage, whether you mean libertarians in the political sense, or libertarians in the somewhat antiquated philosophical sense of believers in incompatibilist free will.

It's odd how many libertarians talk around the evidence from cognitive science and other fields in psychology for a compatibilist view of volition based on the evolution of mental repertoires in human beings which address the problems we human beings face in trying to survive.
But as a psychologist, what I'm most curious about is what kinds of evidence you have in mind.  Compatibilism and its rivals are metaphysical hypotheses.  There is no set of empirical data that could prove that compatibilism is true or false.  (Any more than there is a set of empirical data that would prove that human and animal cognition consist of computations on symbolic data structures, or of Piagetian action schemes, or of processes operating on Randian percepts and/or concepts, etc.)  Compatibilists are going to have to rely on arguments in principle.

I'm also curious what you mean by the following:
I think that human beings are complex genetically and environmentally influenced robots. This view of human beings has lead to some of the best scientific research into human beings in the last 100 years at least.

What makes a robot competent to function in its environment?  Are robots different from living organisms in any way that matters for this discussion?

And, what are some examples of research about human beings that you would recommend as models?  Determinism being an extremely broad position, it has been advocated by many proponents of false or even grossly wrongheaded theories about human beings.  (Similarly, some notion of incompatibilist free will has been put forward by people who advocated false or even grossly wrongheaded theories about human beings.)

Robert Campbell
 



Post 62

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 8:47pmSanction this postReply
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Robert

But in your earlier post from this thread that I was commenting on, you pretty much equated agent causation with incompatibilist free will.  Although many philosophers also insist that there is no reason to posit the first unless you believe in the second, it sure looks as though you can have one without the other, as Roger has argued.  And if Roger, or someone else, has convinced you that there can be agent causation without incompatibilist free will, there's no harm in saying so.
I don't think that I equated the two.  When I think of a position like "agent causation", I think of its defender in traditional philosophic circles (Chisolm) and I think of what problem the defender was trying to solve.  The free will question has different solutions for different people in different contexts.  Compatibilism is the simply the traditional way of making that concession.

What kind of reductionist analysis?  Eliminative?  Ephiphenomenalistic?  Is top-down causation allowed?  Or would only bottom-up causation fit your notion of reductionist analysis?

Causation in terms of similar causes leading to similar effects, regardless of the problems we have defining "similar".  For me, all the "top-down" etc., when paraded as the one true account of causation, all miss the point of similar causes leading to similar effects, which is all determinism needs to represent more than a nice theory.

"Libertarians" in the antiquated incompatibilist free will sense.

But as a psychologist, what I'm most curious about is what kinds of evidence you have in mind.  Compatibilism and its rivals are metaphysical hypotheses.  There is no set of empirical data that could prove that compatibilism is true or false.  (Any more than there is a set of empirical data that would prove that human and animal cognition consist of computations on symbolic data structures, or of Piagetian action schemes, or of processes operating on Randian percepts and/or concepts, etc.)  Compatibilists are going to have to rely on arguments in principle.

There is no set of empirical data that can prove anything is true unless a standard for proof has been set beforehand. Your statement is not an argument against compatibilism.

The key is to ask people who hold a particular position what events would be consistent with their position and how we would differentiate it from another position.

For example, are the results of identical twin experiments in behavioral genetics more supportive of libertarian free will or determinism of some variety?

What makes a robot competent to function in its environment?  Are robots different from living organisms in any way that matters for this discussion?

1) Its programming.
2) Yes, in that we tend not to ask ourselves whether robots are conscious (or have souls) when we analyze them.
.
And, what are some examples of research about human beings that you would recommend as models?  Determinism being an extremely broad position, it has been advocated by many proponents of false or even grossly wrongheaded theories about human beings.  (Similarly, some notion of incompatibilist free will has been put forward by people who advocated false or even grossly wrongheaded theories about human beings.)
Genetics, neuroscience, genetics, psychology, genetics, genetics.

Laj.


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Post 63

Monday, August 1, 2005 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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Laj,

I'm beginning to understand your position a little better.

However, the implications of your stand on causality aren't at all clear to me.  You say you
are in favor of


Causation in terms of similar causes leading to similar effects, regardless of the problems we have defining "similar".  For me, all the "top-down" etc., when paraded as the one true account of causation, all miss the point of similar causes leading to similar effects, which is all determinism needs to represent more than a nice theory.
What is the point, as far as levels of emergence are concerned?  How does the requirement of similar causes and similar effects constrain which types of explanation are acceptable?

Let's take the claim, made by some investigators a few years ago, that obsessive thoughts are caused by excessive activity in the caudate nucleus (a structure deep in the forebrain).

Is this a legitimate claim, from your point of view?  As stated, it asserts that there is bottom-up causation.

An emergentist would make the counterclaim that obsessive thinking could cause excessive activity in the caudate nucleus--indeed, that there could be a reciprocal relationship.

Could the emergentist's claim be a legitimate one, from your point of view?  (Note that no emergentist would deny that bottom-up causation is operating.)

On to my comment about the various forms of determinism and the various theses about incompatibilist free will being metaphysical hypotheses:
There is no set of empirical data that can prove anything is true unless a standard for proof has been set beforehand.
You can do all the setting you want, but there are still going to be major hypotheses, in any sufficiently broad or deep theory, that cannot be proven true or false by any set of empirical data.

What set of data would prove that cognition is computation on symbolic data structures?  What set of data would prove that it isn't?

Your statement is not an argument against compatibilism.
It wasn't intended to be.  What I am arguing against is a philosophy of science that insists that all hypotheses be empirically testable.

The key is to ask people who hold a particular position what events would be consistent with their position and how we would differentiate it from another position.
That's good advice, if the hypotheses are empirically testable.

For example, are the results of identical twin experiments in behavioral genetics more supportive of libertarian free will or determinism of some variety?
I can see the results constraining accounts of "libertarian" free will and how it operates in the formation of various adult human habits or personality traits.  I can also see the results constraining deterministic accounts of various adult human habits or personality traits.

For instance, suppose that some of the more spectacular Minnesota twin study results (pertaining to unusual habits shared by identical twins who were reared apart) end up not replicating in future studies. 

Would you give up determinism when faced with data showing that Twin A and Twin B, though they share 100% of their genes, haven't developed all of the same unusual habits?  Wouldn't you just substitute a deterministic theory makes the development of certain habits more susceptible to environmental influences, for one that makes environmental factors largely irrelevant to the development of those particular habits?

And, by your own lights, should you give up determinism, when you could easily adopt a different deterministic theory that is consistent with the new data?

On robots and organisms, we had this exchange:
What makes a robot competent to function in its environment?  Are robots different from living organisms in any way that matters for this discussion?
1) Its programming.
2) Yes, in that we tend not to ask ourselves whether robots are conscious (or have souls) when we analyze them.

1. What about the robot's programming makes it competent to function in its environment?  And is this a meaningful question from the robot's point of view, as opposed to the human programmer's or the human user's point of view?

2. I'm not sure of your point here.  Are you saying that we "tend not to ask ourselves" whether robots are conscious, when we should be asking whether they are conscious?  Or that we "tend not to ask ourselves" this question, when we shouldn't be asking whether they are conscious?  (Not being in the habit of asking whether anything has a soul, I won't pursue that avenue of inquiry.)

You conclude by saying that neuroscience, psychology, and genetics provide models for studying human beings.  Which work in neuroscience?  Which work in psychology?  Which work in genetics?  Each discipline is diverse and fragmented; each has good and bad theories; each has productive and unproductive programs of research.

Keep in mind that some famous theories in psychology were strongly promoted, in their day, on the grounds that they were deterministic.  Freud claimed that psychoanalysis was more scientific than rival formulations  because it was deterministic; Watson and Skinner and others less famous today claimed that behaviorism was more scientific than rival formulations, in part because it was deterministic.  Yet both theories have been massively (and, in my opinion, quite correctly) discredited.

Robert


















 







Post 64

Monday, August 1, 2005 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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("Ought" implies "can".)
Tibor, although you added that parenthetically, I think it's vitally important, because so many people in the 'mainstream' don't realise that implication, or worse, actively refute it.

Post 65

Monday, August 1, 2005 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,
What is the point, as far as levels of emergence are concerned?  How does the requirement of similar causes and similar effects constrain which types of explanation are acceptable?
Because bad explanations will not have similar causes producing similar effects, or will not help us in practical scenarios - in simpler words, bad theories will have little predictive value.

Let's take the claim, made by some investigators a few years ago, that obsessive thoughts are caused by excessive activity in the caudate nucleus (a structure deep in the forebrain).

Is this a legitimate claim, from your point of view?  As stated, it asserts that there is bottom-up causation.

An emergentist would make the counterclaim that obsessive thinking could cause excessive activity in the caudate nucleus--indeed, that there could be a reciprocal relationship.

Could the emergentist's claim be a legitimate one, from your point of view?  (Note that no emergentist would deny that bottom-up causation is operating.)
Both are legitimate claims.  If there is no testable way of differentiating them, I see no serious reason to choose one or the other. The two claims must imply different things in some way for me to get all worked up about them. And all a compatibilist asks for is the right to hold both claims are true unless evidence decides the problem in favor of one or the other. 


You can do all the setting you want, but there are still going to be major hypotheses, in any sufficiently broad or deep theory, that cannot be proven true or false by any set of empirical data.
And I'm claiming that no hypothesis, no matter how narrow, broad, important or trivial, can be proven true or false by any set of empirical data unless, as a practical and epistemic matter, you agree upon what constitutes a test of the hypothesis.  A hypothesis has to have implications to get off the ground, and if there are no implications that separate determinism from libertarianism, then there is no point debating them.


What set of data would prove that cognition is computation on symbolic data structures?  What set of data would prove that it isn't?
I prefer answers to this question first: what are the opposing theories and what facts/predictions would be (or agreed to be) consistent and inconsistent with cognition being or not being computation on symbolic data structures?

I can see the results constraining accounts of "libertarian" free will and how it operates in the formation of various adult human habits or personality traits.  I can also see the results constraining deterministic accounts of various adult human habits or personality traits.

If libertarian free will is "constrained", then what was the argument against determinism again?


Would you give up determinism when faced with data showing that Twin A and Twin B, though they share 100% of their genes, haven't developed all of the same unusual habits?  Wouldn't you just substitute a deterministic theory makes the development of certain habits more susceptible to environmental influences, for one that makes environmental factors largely irrelevant to the development of those particular habits?

If I couldn't systematically and statistically explain the residual variance in terms of another factor(s), I think I could give up determinism for the new data, yes. Substituting a theory for another is not just about speculation- there is also a testing aspect, and determinism has enough going for it to get the benefit of the doubt.


1. What about the robot's programming makes it competent to function in its environment?  And is this a meaningful question from the robot's point of view, as opposed to the human programmer's or the human user's point of view?
That's a very empirical question.  And since you could also argue that the question isn't meaningful from a dog's point of view, I think that the differences are about degrees of complexity.

2. I'm not sure of your point here.  Are you saying that we "tend not to ask ourselves" whether robots are conscious, when we should be asking whether they are conscious?  Or that we "tend not to ask ourselves" this question, when we shouldn't be asking whether they are conscious?  (Not being in the habit of asking whether anything has a soul, I won't pursue that avenue of inquiry.)
We do not go out of our way to imbue robots with souls (unless we are sci-fi fans).  But consider Deep Blue, the computer that beat Kasparov.  When computers play chess, we tend to speak of their behavior as if humans are playing - we talk about the computer's mistakes, its tactical strength, etc. Yet we do not look for a soul or some free  will that does all these things in the computer.

You conclude by saying that neuroscience, psychology, and genetics provide models for studying human beings.  Which work in neuroscience?  Which work in psychology?  Which work in genetics?  Each discipline is diverse and fragmented; each has good and bad theories; each has productive and unproductive programs of research.
Agreed.  I'd just start with behavioral and molecular genetics.

Keep in mind that some famous theories in psychology were strongly promoted, in their day, on the grounds that they were deterministic.  Freud claimed that psychoanalysis was more scientific than rival formulations  because it was deterministic; Watson and Skinner and others less famous today claimed that behaviorism was more scientific than rival formulations, in part because it was deterministic.  Yet both theories have been massively (and, in my opinion, quite correctly) discredited.
Yes, but Freud was more imagination than experimentation, and Skinner, I'm willing to cut some slack because I agree that behaviorism was more scientific than its rivals. The Law of Reinforcement still survives, but Skinner's being wrong doesn't make his ideas unscientific.

I don't think that it is possible to have psychology without determinism, but maybe I'm missing something.  Or I'm misunderstanding the libertarian position.

Cheers,
Laj.


Post 66

Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Campbell, "'If the notion of downward causation is legitimate, it doesn't just apply to conscious human choices (or "volition").

"It applies to candle flames, Benard cells (a type of convection pattern that arises in a heated liquid), life, and to knowledge and motivation in frogs and squirrels, not just to conscious decision-making by human beings."

Sure; and this would be even more problematic. I agree; why restrict the human brain to the physical region of space where spooky things happen. Why not believe the entire universe is governed by strange, inexplicable, mystical forces.

"'Assuming the subatomic constituents of the brain are indeed governed by the 4 physical forces--gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces--then the position of the particles that make up the brain over time are dependent on mechanistic forces. Even if there is an uncertainty aspect, that just adds randomness. Our behavior is clearly a manifestation of the movement of the particles of our bodies. It seems to me undeniable that to have true volition, one's "mind" or "brain" as a whole must influence the motion of the particles that make it up. But it seems to me that this implies that if one were to examine on a subatomic level, the particles inside the brain, then take a given particle: its path must not be influenced solely by the 4 forces; if it is, then we are determined (or, at best, semi-random), not volitional.

"Although you refer to a 20th century theory of 4 physical forces, your framing of the problem here is more characteristic of the 17th century. Everything is matter in motion; matter ultimately consists of little particles; only the little particles and the forces acting on them can have causal power."

Was the 20th century so bad? And this is not the point. It was just an illustration. Whatever the laws are that govern the interaction and behavior of the little things that make up our bodies--whether it be quarks or Lewis Little's "elementary waves," then either these interactions are causal, or they are random. I don't see how either one allows for downward causation.

"As far as I can see, your argument simply presupposes the truth of physicalism. Or to put it a little diferently, it presupposes the truth of a pretty strong form of reductionism (possibly the eliminative variety; possibly epiphenomenalism with an explicit acknowledgment of "causal drain" all the way down to the microphysical level.)

"For if someone comes along and tries to point how a candle flame has an emergent property of self-maintenance--so that the organization of processes that make up the flame affects where the oxygen molecules go, or where the CO2 molecules go, etc.--you could respond with the exact same challenge to identify a "5th force."""

In my view, when you talk about the property of self-maintenance, you are using a high-level concept to refer to the behavior of a certain high-order thing, which is of course composed of lower-level things. It is theoreticaly possibly to model the behavior of a car, say--that is, to understand it--by looking at each of its 17 billion trillion particles. But just as in math we will jump into the frequency or imaginary domain for conceptual simplicity, so it is very simplifying and more conceptually graspable to define the components and functions of the car on a higher level--a "carbeurator" functionally connected to other components, the "wheels", "drive shaft," "frame," etc., rather than to just have a mapping of all billion trillion particles. But just because we find it convenient to conceptualize it this way does not imply any downward causation; just as the use of "imaginary numbers" as a simplifying calculation in math does not mean that there "really is" a "square root of negative one". In fact, there is NOT a square root of negative one; that is why we call it imaginary; but this concept is useful in doing the math. Likewise, we can picture a car, or a billiard table, as a constellation of constituent smaller things that interact with each other in certain ways (perahps somewhat random); or we can look at it as a collection if a smaller number of higher-level things. So what? none of this implies actual downward causation. None of the "emergent properties" that philosophers and scientists gush about prove this at all.

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Post 67

Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 10:54pmSanction this postReply
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Edward Pols in his recent book Mind Regained (1998, Cornell University Press) has some helpful things to say about upward and downward causation in re the mind-body problem and the nature of human action and agent causality. (See also Tibor Machan's recommendation earlier in this thread of another book by Pols.)

In chapters 5 and 6, Pols presents his positive thesis: "a rational agent is the apex being of a hierarchy of causes and so a primary being." Here he guides us in "deploying the causality intrinsic to the beings we are in order to remove a doctrinal obstacle to the acknowledgment of that causality" -- in other words, in focusing on what mind actually, concretely is -- first on "the functions of the minds of the apex beings (primary beings) we are," then on "the unity that expresses itself in these several functions, namely, the causality of the apex being that is refracted in these many functions" (95-6). By "the mind itself," Pols means nothing mysterious or obscure, but rather "the full concreteness, the full actuality, the wholeness of mind, the lived reality of mind" -- in other words, the embodied mind, "the human being who speaks, argues, chooses, feels, and all the rest..." Pols steadfastly refuses to consider the mind as less real and concrete than the central nervous system, and he points out that when the central nervous system is studied "just as a biological entity," it is no less "being considered in abstraction from the full concreteness of mind itself" than is mind when we focus on its functions.

The coup de grace to "the negative philosophical judgment about the powers of the human mind" and the "received scientific doctrine of causality" is administered in chapter 6, "Mind at the Apex of a Hierarchy of Causes." Pols considers here the rational actions that utilize mental functions and the agent of those actions, "a human being that acts -- the being in which the action originates, out of which the action comes...[which] may properly be said to cause the action and so provide an explanation for the existence of the action" (120). Human beings do not, however, cause their acts in the same sense in which the prior movement of one physical object causes the subsequent movement of another; if causality is understood strictly in terms of temporal sequence, the relation between human beings and their acts cannot be instances of causality. We continue to shape and guide our acts, rather than simply initiating them and then having no further causal influence; we have the complex effect we are aiming for in mind, and having it in mind has an influence on the effect coming about: "[T]he telos is effective throughout the sequence of which it is the completion" (122). From this, it is clear that the causality of human action cannot be made intelligible without a considerably broader and more multifaceted model of causality than the one proffered by mainstream science.

Our minds are situated at the apex of a causal hierarchy, and our mental functions are causally dependent on our being the apex of "a causal hierarchy...an infrastructure that defines the embodied state of the human mind" (125). Pols uses the metaphor of a pyramid to illustrate how each of us is the apex of a multilevel structure "of causes made up of untold myriads of entities/beings, each of which is the apex of a smaller pyramid of causality. As you deploy your various functions in an act,...you also deploy your causality -- your power of determining something -- down through the multiplicity of the pyramid" (126). Each of us is only one, while each level below us is composed of many items. While each of these items, by virtue of its own determining power, contributes that power "upwards" to the causality we exercise in rational action, we in turn exercise our own determining power "downwards" over each of those items. The effects we thus produce in the items lower in our pyramids are not the result of a physical process operating in a cause-effect sequence. We cannot activate a mental function without the simultaneous, nonsequential pattern of firing that allows the function to take place. This same pattern pervades the way in which smaller causal pyramids within us determine "downwards" the activities and outcomes of their components that contribute to the pyramids being just those particular pyramids, while their components contribute causally "upwards" to the pyramid’s exercise of determining power. In the same way that our self-identities are dependent on the particularity of our own pyramids, so in general are the items within our own pyramids related to the items within their pyramids.

Further, in referring to living organisms as entities or beings that are pyramids of entities or beings, Pols is signaling his disagreement with the current fashion of regarding "functional levels" as being more respectable than the things that possess those levels of functioning and whose carrying out those functions raise the issue of what a function is. His ontology regards entities as the fundamental kinds of things in the world; and although we commonly refer to "anything that we can single out by its apparent unity from the rest of the environing world" as an entity, the kinds of entities that carry out actions, he says, are the primary entities (127). For this reason, he refers to primary entities as exercising "ontic causality" or "ontic power;" and he adds that, to the extent that the entities at lower levels of our organismic pyramids carry out act-like functions, they too can be said to exercise ontic causality over their own components and to function, in a more limited sense, as primary beings. Ontic causality is universal, existing in and transcending every individual, unified thing that exists. This is Pols’s ultimate reply to microentity reductionism:
[W]e have dismissed the claim that the (transcendent) nature of things has its locus operandi only in the microentities of the base level. For that we have substituted the claim that its locus operandi is in the apex of each primary being from the most evanescent particle to such highly complex beings as Newton and Mozart. (132)
Here, at last, Pols reveals the full structure of his model of causality. The power we exercise, on any given level of our organismic pyramids, in any of our functions or actions is temporal, taking time to occur or be carried out, and in a sense "horizontal", happening between distinguishable entities in a cause-effect manner: "a temporal sequence in which two distinct items can be discriminated -- one in which the power originates (you or me), the other on which the power is exercised (some item in the world around us)" (131). We affect other entities in the world and cause things to happen in the world; parts of our bodies affect other parts of our bodies and cause things to happen inside us. This physical mode of causation (which many think is the only kind there is) Pols refers to as "transeunt" causality, in contrast with what the medievals called "immanent" causality, and which Pols refers to as "ontic" causality: the "vertical" and atemporal causal relationship between levels of an entity. The upward and downward causality that we and our body parts exercise is nontemporal, in the sense that in exercising it, we do not do anything somewhere else "whose impact or influence in the multiplicity of the level below [us] only appears there after [we] deploy it" (129).
You do not think and afterwards produce electrical patterns to which your thinking contributes. So also with the support given your act by the neuronal level: each neuron does not do something whose impact or influence only appears afterwards in your thought. (129)
In contrast with the distinct entities involved in transeunt causality, the relationship between interacting levels of a hierarchy is ambiguous. In one sense, each of us at the apex of our pyramid is "identical with the multiplicity of functioning items" in our pyramid; in another respect, that self-identity is asymmetrical, in that the apex is a One and its functional items are a Many. (This, by the way, is precisely what I have been trying to convey when I say that value-determinism is how agent causality works. Our values are an aspect of our identity, they are part of the multiplicity of functioning items in our pyramic, and our selves are the apex of that pyramid -- and when we cause an action, it is our values determine the nature of that action.) 

Pols further says that the union of the apex and lower levels of the pyramid is so intimate that the term "relation" is not adequate to describe how they are...related! The pitfall comes in regarding mind and body in a Cartesian dualistic manner as being two functional levels -- consciousness and neuronal -- each of which is "ontologically complete in itself [and] capable of acting on the other" (129, 130). Consciousness is not something that has ontic causal power that it exercises over neurons, and vice versa. It is we as unified entities that achieve consciousness of things in the world by exercising our ontic causality over neurons and receiving support from neurons. Consciousness, that is, is not a source of causal power, but an outcome of it; it results when we take action in the world. It is not consciousness per se, but we, as conscious beings that cause things to happen. (This is a direct challenge, of course, to all those Objectivists who still cling to some form of dualist interaction between mind and body or consciousness and matter.)

Pols also has some insightful things to say about determinism in regard to human choice and action. The laws of nature, he says, are "derivative from the ontic power of primary beings" in general (88). In other words, the laws of nature are "regularities extrapolated to a universality that ranges far beyond their empirical base" and thus are "descriptive rather than ontologically determinative," detailing the recurrent aspects of entities "whose causal structure is more concretely and more adequately understood in terms of a hierarchy of causes." The closer the phenomena one examines are to the base of such a hierarchy, the more precise and deterministic in character are the laws describing such phenomena.

On the other hand, without assuming the existence of indeterminism or absolute chance in the universe, the use of statistical laws (rather than deterministic laws) may be unavoidable in describing more complex entities. Pols thus assumes that the reason determinism does not play a major role in human action is not because any kind of acausal "Epicurean swerve" is in operation, but because the apex entity in any given hierarchy (human or otherwise) "can determine what is determinable in the pyramid in which it expresses its self-identity, and that the more complex that self-identity is, the less predictable the outcome." (And, I would add, the more complex one's values, which are an aspect of one's identity, the more complex and the less predictable the actions one's values determine.)

Pols adds, in his final chapter, that "what is open to determination need not be pervaded by some absolute indeterminacy or chance in order to thus be open." It merely needs to be distinct in some sense from what determines it, in the sense that we at the apex of our pyramids "are in some sense distinguishable" from the biochemical processes occurring in our brains" (95-6, 127). While this does not establish free will in the indeterminist sense some claim is necessary to avoid the hegemony of determinism, it goes a long way toward establishing the relative autonomy of living organisms in general, and human beings in particular. Agent causation and (I would say) value determinism is neither indeterministic nor reductively materialistic, but instead hierarchical.

[The above comments are excerpted from a longer review essay I wrote several years ago for Reason Papers. It is also posted on the Internet at:
http://members.aol.com/REBissell/PolsReview.html]

Best regards to all,
REB


Post 68

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 4:02amSanction this postReply
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Roger,

How does Ed Pols explain the success of reductive materialism in analyzing human behavior?

Laj.


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Post 69

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 6:30amSanction this postReply
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Laj:

(I am speaking as an experimental psychologist now:) What success?

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Post 70

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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Abolaji Ogunshola wrote:
How does Ed[ward] Pols explain the success of reductive materialism in analyzing human behavior?
As Adam Reed said, "What success?"

But here is a more extended (partial) explanation of why reductive materialism has not and cannot successfully analyze human behavior (again excerpting from my Reason Papers review essay on Pols' book on the mind).

But why, specifically, has there been such a widespread loss of an adequate understanding of the mental functions by which we accomplish both our everyday and our more exalted tasks? In seeking an explanation, Pols focuses in the first part (fully two-thirds) of his book, "Attending to Doctrines," on what he sees as the two most important factors: the predisposition of most contemporary philosophers to what he calls the "negative philosophical judgment about the powers of the human mind" and the prevalence among philosophers and scientists of the "received scientific doctrine of causality" (viii)...The latter factor is the attempt, characteristic of 20th century reductionist philosophers and scientists, to portray mind as being less real than the physical infrastructure that supports it, to explain mind as "an effect of the physical entities that science investigates so superbly," and to reject any theory that does not explain "any apparent causality on the part of mind...in terms of the doctrine of causality that prevails in science" (viii).

Notwithstanding the brilliance and usefulness of many recent achievements in the study of mind, Pols says, they were developed within a framework unnecessarily constricted by, and serving to perpetuate, the failure to grasp what was long ago acknowledged by the great philosophical doctrines of the ancient Greeks and medieval Scholastics: that "mind itself is the deepest ordering principle of nature or at least the most important expression of that ordering principle" and that "causality is hierarchical and that mind is central to that hierarchy" (1, 19)... Pols in no way means to deny or dismiss the importance and massiveness of the contribution of the infrastructure in all the things that mind does, he merely intends to establish that "the physical basis of mind is not the only causal factor in mind," that something causally significant, "some truly causal factor is missing when the study of mind is approached only by way of the central nervous system." He further readily concedes that he is entitled to refer to the brain as belonging to "the infrastructure of mind" only if he is also entitled to also refer to "the mind itself," i.e., only if he is also able to make his case that there is more of causal significance in the mind’s functioning than is found by studying the nervous system (10-1).

If he is correct, Pols says, the implication is clear: human beings and their acts are irreducible "causal hierarchies." He is thus also inviting us to consider and apply a model of causality which, though explicitly designed to be able to incorporate the advances made by modern science in understanding the infrastructure that supports the functions of mind, is more similar to that of Aristotle and Plato than that of Hume and Laplace. He seeks to convince us that rational action, which he calls a "master function within which we can discern other functions brought together under the telos [end, purpose] that defines the action itself," cannot be completely analyzed and understood, from either a functional/temporal or a structural/spatial perspective, "as entirely an effect of causes other than itself."

(1) Functionally, any attempt at linear-event analysis of an action into a series of mental or physical events is futile, in that it cannot account fully for the holistic unity, the wholeness, of the action. The reason, Pols says, is that an action is not "temporally linear," instead requiring a non-discrete, "global" amount of time to be the action it is: "[T]he earlier ‘parts’ anticipate the later ‘parts’; the later ‘parts’ retain the earlier ‘parts’ in order to complete what was begun there." The very nature of a rational act, with its "telic drive," thus requires that its causality be not linear and one-directional, but (in a sense) circular and bi-directional. On the level of conscious purpose, anticipation and remembering are the functions that allow a writer, speaker, or performer to construct sentences or musical phrases in which an earlier word or note does not cause a later word or note, yet is selected in anticipation of its being an appropriate predecessor, with the latter being selected as an appropriate successor by the guidance of remembrance of what it is succeeding. Something like anticipation and remembering, though often not on the conscious level, are essential features of any purposeful act, the purpose of the overall act itself being a vital and central facet, if not the totality, of the cause that guides the quasi- anticipatory and recollective functions by which the various events characterizing the act are carried out (15-6, 19).

(2) Structurally, any attempt at analysis of an action into a series of infrastructure events again leaves the action as a whole incompletely accounted for: "The causal contributions of discrete infrastructure elements are no doubt real enough, but they do not appear as such in the act. They seem rather to be used by the act [and] absorbed into its temporal unity." Though these elements are "accessible for study,...they are not accessible as supporting mind. It is only by deploying mind itself in the theoretical activity we call science that we can learn about that support...[W]e know well how to use neurons and so also electrons, even though we can give no account of that "how": we need only deploy mind itself in whatever task or problem happens to interest us. If the infrastructure is healthy, it will support that activity of mind itself....[I]n the doing of the activity only mind itself is manifest to us" (14). Rather than being caused by what goes on within its infrastructure, then, a rational act is self-caused, in the sense that "it makes use of the units of the infrastructure by incorporating them into its own actuality." This is the key Pols offers for understanding how knowledge, values, and motives have causal significance in human action. Much of the "actuality" of a rational act consists of:
what mind comes to know in the course of the development of the act -- the reasons it understands and assents to, the things it understands to be good and therefore to be pursued, the things it takes to be bad and therefore to be avoided. Things thus known are causes of the action in the limited sense that knowing is part of the action and these are things known. (16)
[Pols has more to say about the inadequacy of the "received scientific doctrine of causality" in regard to determinism and explanation of the world. I'll reserve it for the post following...REB]


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Post 71

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
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The real culprit behind modern science's reductionist tendencies in explaining human action is the Humean and Laplacean views of causality, which Pols contextualizes as developments from Descartes' erroneous mind-body dualism. Here is the relevant excerpt from my review essay on Pols' Mind Regained:

In chapter 2, "Descartes’ Dualism and Its Disastrous Consequences," Pols highlights the main points and rationale of Descartes’s extreme mind-body dualism, with special attention to the aspects of it that led to the negative view of mind’s power to know reality and to the state-event model of causality. Descartes saw mind as so radically different from body that by the very extreme difference in their constituents (soul or "thinking substance" and matter or "extended substance") neither could have a causal effect on the other. Despite his attempts to argue that the mind/soul and a machine-like physical body interacted via the pineal gland (!), neither the rationalist nor the empiricist philosophers who followed Descartes would accept the idea of mind-body interaction, instead opting for some form of parallelism or preestablished harmony, on the one hand, or materialistic monism, on the other. The empiricists leaned toward materialism because they uncritically adopted Descartes’s idea that "the reality of the physical world is different from what common sense takes it to be," that the physical world is real while our common sense experience of it is not -- or that the physical world is more real than our experience of it. Like Descartes, the empiricists believed that "knowledge does not consist in a relation between our mind and things but rather in the relation between the mind and its ideas..." Unlike Descartes, whose rationalist view that innate representative ideas gave the mind the ability to access the reality behind the veil of appearance, the empiricists held that the real source of knowledge was specifically the impressions in the stream of experience, which are not representative in a way that allows us to infer a reality beyond them, although prudence leads us to anticipate in their future course as much as possible. This effectively blocked empiricists from using experience as the basis for demonstrating that scientists are describing a real material world behind the appearances of the impressions of experience (54-5). They and the rest of modern philosophy remain trapped in what Pols calls "the central predicament of all post-Cartesian epistemology," an unreal one to be sure, else (despite Descartes’s intricate and ingenious efforts) there would be no way out of it:
[I]deas purport to represent real things or features of real things, but we have access only to the representations and not to their originals, if indeed there are originals....Thus if subjects called bodies really exist -- both the bodies that seem to make up the commonsense world and our own particular bodies, considered as parts of that world -- we can know what bodies are (their true natures) and whether bodies really exist independently of mind only by undertaking a demonstration that begins with the representative reality of our own ideas. (50)
Pols points out a further way in which Descartes’s dualism has, more indirectly, undermined or distorted the empirical study of mind, which often adopts the assumption that "mind and body may be understood in terms of two distinct streams of states/events, one mental and the other physical." The idea of a succession of mental states/events is implicit in Descartes’ idea that mind is a radically different substance from body, but it is developed in explicit detail in Spinoza’s parallelism and, more important, in Hume’s phenomenalism. Hume held that we cannot demonstrate the existence of the external world from the sequence of impressions in our experience. Yet, since he held that our knowledge of the mental stream is more certain than that of the physical stream, a dilemma arises. Hume wants to argue that the latter stream of events is more basic and that it is ruled by cause-and-effect; however, he also wants to argue that the existence of the physical world is a postulation based on the mental stream, and that causality is not based on necessities in the (inaccessible) external world but merely on the observed regularities of sequences of events in the mental stream. Strictly speaking, then, Hume’s view limits empiricists to viewing causality in either stream of events as being mere "constant correlation: x is the cause of y if and only if when x occurs y follows and when x does not occur y does not occur." Nor is there any apparent solution to the problem of which stream is more real or basic. The hard-nosed realism of the causal views of mainstream empiricist materialism are at sixes and nines with the watered-down causality of Hume’s phenomenalism (56-7).

Pols follows up on this problem at the end of chapter 4 by briefly pointing out that the difficulties with conceiving of causality exclusively in terms of the succession of physical states and events have a parallel in the error of arguing that the powers of the mind are exercised only by means of a stream of mental states and events. The attempt of some contemporary analytic-empiricist philosophers to thus "assimilate a supposed mental causality to the received scientific doctrine of causality" is not an adequate correction to the materialist emphasis on the physical. Such mental states and events are, in fact, "abstractions from the lives of persons. In all plausible cases of what at least purports to be causally significant mental activity, it is only after someone has acted rationally that you can pick out with any confidence a series of states/events (of whatever kind) and consider their causal role in certain purposive achievements" (91). What this abstract state/event model, in both its physical and mental variants, leaves out of an explanation of rational action and purposive achievement is the "telic unity" of their temporal structure, i.e., "the directed unity of [their] several stages." (92). A comment in the following chapter puts an appropriate cap on this point:
Given the profusion of acts of the mind that are intricately and ineluctably embodied, the notion that mind can be adequately described in terms of sequences of purely mental events set in contrast with sequences of purely physical events taking place in the brain seems an unreal contrivance. The contrivance is based on the obsessive notion that any physical event singled out from a physical system is wholly caused by prior physical events. Take that notion and apply it to supposed mental events and you have a straw-man dualism that can then be easily discredited in favor of one of the many forms of physicalist monism that are current today. (100)
Most of Pols’s concern in chapters 3 and 4 is to reveal the problems with conceiving of causality exclusively in terms of the succession of physical states and events. One of the chief problems is that the very prestige of this viewpoint inhibits many who study the mind from trying to see whether the physical world in general and human beings in particular exhibit hierarchical causality. In chapter 3, "The Received Scientific Doctrine of Causality," Pols traces the historical process by which Aristotle’s "four causes" were gradually replaced. The scientific efforts of Kepler and Galileo led to the modern view of causality that strips away formal causality in the full sense and thus telic or final causality as well. The received scientific doctrine also reduces material causality from the idea that "the hierarchical principle by virtue of which what was a formal cause at one ontological level could serve as a material cause for a higher (formal) ontological level" to the idea that inferred microentities are "more truly real than the entities to whose macroscopic structure they contribute,...the observed forms of macroscopic entities [being] dependent on the observer in a way analogous to such secondary qualities as colors;" reduces formal causality from the idea that a visible, intelligible structure emerges from a process of change to the idea that a law of nature (e.g., the laws of Newtonian mechanics) displays the mathematical form by which atoms and larger entities move; and treats efficient causality as interaction between observed entities, which move the way they do because they are composed of atoms (64-5). Following Newton’s acceptance of atomism, Laplace assumes that nature is really a concrete physical system composed of "microscopic particles moving inexorably form one state to another and giving rise to all the macroscopic realities to which human beings respond." Laplace’s view of causality thus sees the universe as a whole as being "a physical system that passes through successive states, any given state being the cause of the state that follows;" and "the transition from state to state is governed by laws of nature...[T]he laws of nature are causal factors no less than the physical states are" (69).

Since most research and applied science focuses on physical systems smaller than the universe as a whole, the "working model," the physical systems model, for Laplace’s view of causality regards a physical system at some particular time as the cause and that same system at a later time as the effect. Further, while this kind of mathematical analysis of two sequential states of the same physical system is sometimes most appropriate, at other times all that is necessary is a simpler model of causality that links two particular entities/events as the cause and effect of some transaction, the first event, condition, or entity being the cause of the second only if it is "necessary and sufficient" for the second (74). In an effort to precisely define "sufficiency," philosophers tend to argue in terms of a given transaction being governed by law. There is, however, a deep split among scientists and philosophers about the ontological status of the laws of nature. The Laplacean optimists because of their confidence in the realism of laws and their own ability to know things as they are, view the laws of nature as "prescriptive in a causally determinative sense...rather than merely descriptive...[W]hat is thus explained could in principle have been predicted" (76). The Humean pessimists on the other hand argue that "there is no justification for the claim that we as knowers can find in nature either necessary production or the lawful necessity of a succession of events....[I]f necessity does indeed exist in a nature understood to be independent of any formative/constitutive power the knower may conceivably possess, then the knower cannot observe, intuit, or otherwise confront it." The best we can hope for in formulating laws of nature is to use them descriptively, detailing how "transitions from one state to another of a physical system -- large or small -- do in fact take place" (78).

Since the Humean pessimists think that necessity cannot be found in an independent external reality, they attempt to re-interpret the Laplacean model in linguistic-logical terms: "statements about the state of a physical science that is regarded as the cause logically necessitate statements about the state regarded as the effect" (78). This is currently the dominant view in philosophy of science, and the result is that philosophy is trapped within "a linguistic prison," viewing physical entities not as real things belonging to a real external world but as linguistic postulations belonging to the "ontology" of whatever language the theories about them are expressed in. Despite this major difference in perspective, both factions pursue the traditional "reductionist goal for the unity of science," which requires that all laws aimed at explaining an upper level in a complex hierarchical system be deducible from the laws covering the base level, and that all concepts applying to the upper level be defined in terms of base-level concepts. Even though many of the Humean strain profess to view models of reality as being linguistic constructions, they no less than the others are "dominated by the image of a total (concrete) physical system in continuous progression from state to state under eternal laws that mandate just that progress and no other" (80).

The problems with the scientific doctrine of causality only get worse when you try to apply it to complex physical systems such as human beings, as Pols illustrates in chapter 4, "Mind and the Scientific Doctrine of Causality." Everything that exists and might be studied by science is part of an unimaginably complex universe of nested physical systems, so the Laplacean ideal of state-to-state research and analysis is in practice supplanted by treating a given entity in relative isolation from the rest of the universe and as a relatively stable structure and attendant substructures, within which some specific thing is happening that we want to understand. However, we don’t know how or what to add to the currently understood laws of nature to allow a causal analysis of any relatively complex part of the brain; nor do we know how to establish the initial conditions of such a part of the brain. Thus, rather than treating the whole brain, for instance, as a physical system moving from total state to total state, in practice, scientists instead adopt the more practical cause-effect model which treats one brain event as resulting in another brain event. The problem with this approach, however, is that although we know with certainty that, for instance, a complex pattern of guided electrochemical impulses is essential to vision, we don’t know just how those impulses contribute to vision, let alone how they contribute to our rational awareness that we are seeing something.

Beyond this, there is the problem of how complex biological structures arise, both phylogenetically and ontogenetically. Pols points out the inadequacies of the current neo-Darwinist paradigm in evolutionary theory, which follows standard scientific doctrine in seeking to discredit and eliminate the idea of final causation. Although teleology appears to be the case, neo-Darwinists argue, given enough time all of the plants and animals and all of their characteristics could have arisen by chance operating through natural selection. If there were such a thing as absolute chance, their argument would succeed; but the consensus is that there is only relative (Laplacean) chance, the kind that "can be eliminated by better knowledge, although such knowledge is sometimes difficult to come by and hardly worth the trouble" (85). Neo-Darwinists indeed do adopt this viewpoint, holding as well the standard view of a smooth, continuous, necessitated movement from state to state. What they do not acknowledge is that relative chance does not have the same teleology-banning implications that absolute chance does, hence they persist in their opposition to purpose and final causation.

Another problem facing the accepted model of causality is the appearance-reality clash that shows up between common sense and the contemporary tendency to try to explain away the causality governing larger structures such as living organisms or the human brain in favor of that operating on the microentities that make them up. While scientists have basically abandoned the attempt to reduce higher-level laws and concepts to lower-level ones, many still try to argue that causality only actually works in the entities at the lowest, base level of nature. We should, they say, take microentities more seriously, i.e., as being more real and causally significant, than the organisms they constitute, and we should regard organisms as aggregates rather than integrated wholes. On the other hand, the mind tends to regard at least some macroentities as capable of rather serious things such as responsible action for which there is some causal and explanatory significance. Philosophers who deny the power of the mind to know an independent reality, however, claim that the commonsense idea that large systems and, in particular, the minds that belong to such systems as ourselves have a causal significance is based on some kind of deception: "...the antireductive disposition of common sense is nothing more than a disposition to take an appearance for a reality" (89). They blame mind for generating the appearance and then taking it as reality; mind by its very nature reacts to what it wants to know by making something else and then taking that for what it wanted to know in the first place. We take complexes of electrons to be physical objects, we take lights waves to be colors, we take linguistic constructs to be reality. This creates a deep problem for materialism, which views mind as being causally generated by the physical operations of microentities -- and also as itself generating the appearance that materialism’s view is not complete -- and also that mind too is an appearance. Despite this, the mind must also break free from its being a causally dependent appearance-generating appearance and somehow identify how things really are. Materialism and its view of mind can hardly be defended, when their very premises and conclusions seem to destroy the possibility of any such defense.

To depict starkly the difference between the standard scientific model of causality and the view that living beings are causal hierarchies, Pols proposes a thought experiment that illustrates the pitfall of any attempt to resolve the mind-body question via neurophysiology. First, he says, assume that an omniscient scientist could, at the start of a complex rational act, establish all the relevant conditions operating in the person carrying out the action, without interfering with that action in any way. Second, assume that the scientist knows all of the relevant laws of physics and chemistry and physiology. Third, assume that the scientist doesn’t know anything about what the person being studied is thinking about or intends to do. If, in fact, we are causal hierarchies, the omniscient scientist will be unable, despite all of his knowledge, to predict even the physical conditions in the nervous system at the end of the action, because the nervous system’s physical behavior is affected by the apex being’s mental functions. Although the person could not have carried out the action without the causal support of the nervous system, the events involving the neurons are not the entire cause of the person’s mental functions. Hence, the scientist will be unable to offer an adequate physical explanation of the state of the person’s nervous system at the end of the action (90-1).

[I would like to hear what reductionist fans have to say about Pols' proposed thought experiment....REB]


Post 72

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent- excellent points Roger.

Post 73

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 3:11amSanction this postReply
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Roger writes:
>Pols proposes a thought experiment that illustrates the pitfall of any attempt to resolve the mind-body question via neurophysiology. First, he says, assume that an omniscient scientist could, at the start of a complex rational act, establish all the relevant conditions operating in the person carrying out the action...If, in fact, we are causal hierarchies, the omniscient scientist will be unable, despite all of his knowledge, to predict even the physical conditions in the nervous system at the end of the action, because the nervous system’s physical behavior is affected by the apex being’s mental functions...I would like to hear what reductionist fans have to say about Pols' proposed thought experiment....

I am certainly not a reductionist fan, but this thought experiment of Pols does not seem to me to be a very powerful one. Because the physical reductionist surely *expects to predict all* the person's "physical conditions...at the end of the action" via all relevant conditions plus laws of physics, just as she'd expect to predict all the physical conditions of a robot at the end of a programed action. (Because to the physicalist, a human *is* a kind of robot, just like Laj says, and mental functions *are*physical functions). If our physical reductionist failed to do so, she would just assume that she didn't have possession of all necessary conditions, or all necessary laws of physics. She need not assume the existence a "causal mental apex being".

Conversely, the actions of a *robot* (or a computer) might equally not conform to a certain set of physical predictions. Should Pols then assume *that* was due to a "causal mental apex being" affecting its physical behaviour? So, if I understand it correctly, the thought experiment does not demonstrate what he's looking for.

- Daniel


Post 74

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

I consider the dominant paradigm in current behavioral and molecular genetics as well as in neuroscience to be reductive materialism.  Material/physical similarities and differences are considered the primary basis for other emergent similarities and differences.

Roger,

Believe it or not, I had read your essays quite a few times in the past.

I am willing to grant Pols all his arguments and still admit that I've learned little of practical value from what he has written (or rather, your exposition of his ideas). I've lost my love for philosophic stylistic writing which doesn't address any particular scientific data or at least, attempt to open up new paths for analysis in science. It's such writing that in my opinion, leads many Objectivists who deify Rand astray and also leads some Objectivists to attempt philosophical refutations of empirical facts.

I am happy you fleshed out what Pols considers an experiment which would distinguish his position from that of the physicalists he denigrates. I think Daniel Barnes's (forgive me for using your full name, Dan, but you will see why I do so in a sec :)) is sufficient and it is one that I think Daniel Dennett would agree with.

Dennett has a defence of emergent properties in Darwin's Dangerous Idea.   He argues, using a couple of thought experiments in chapter 14 that (1) without referring to goals and ends, you will never be able to explain many causal regularities in the physical world intelligibly and that (2)meaning has an evolved physicalist basis. Since Dennett is a reductive materialist, I think that the differences between reductive materialism and Pols's point of view have been overblown.  The main point of reductive materialism is to see how far physical phenomena can account for what we know about human behavior. Given how much has been accounted for, it is not too much to go all the way and say that all of human behavior can be accounted for by material similarities and differences in human beings.  This view may be wrong, but it is one of the most successful in modern science and it often explains far more than a mentalist view of related phenomena.  Information processing paradigms and bioengineering have helped greatly in understanding the structure of the nervous system.

Now, let's take a look at mentally-ill patients.  Physicalist science has made a lot of progress in understanding some of the causes of these problems in terms of hormonal imbalances or brain-damage etc. Would Pols' approach to these issues have fostered a paradigm in which these issues could be scientifically analyzed? I don't know enough about Pols to answer conclusively, but given the little space that his fans that I have read so far (you and Machan) give to the data on mental illness or the biological basis of love etc., I doubt that the answer would be positive.

Consider synaesthesia.  Is the person whose perceptions exhibits the phenomenon choosing it or is it at least in part a function of that person's neurological structure?  It is the problem I have with reconciling these facts with with work of writers like Pols and Machan that leads me to generally disregard incompatibilist free willers.  On the other hand, Pols might not be one. But I hope you get my drift.

Cheers,

Laj.


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Post 75

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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Laj,

This doesn't address all of the issues you've raised, but I'm in the midst of editing a book, and it may be a few days before I make further comments on this thread.
Dennett has a defence of emergent properties in Darwin's Dangerous Idea.   He argues, using a couple of thought experiments in chapter 14 that (1) without referring to goals and ends, you will never be able to explain many causal regularities in the physical world intelligibly and that (2) meaning has an evolved physicalist basis. Since Dennett is a reductive materialist, I think that the differences between reductive materialism and Pols's point of view have been overblown.

Your appeal to Dennett makes for a poor response to Pols--or to anyone else who takes emergence seriously--because Dennett fails to deliver an "evolved physicalist basis" for meaning.   In fact, the view of knowledge that Dennett presents in his book is completely anti-emergent.  The anti-emergence shows up, for instance, when Dennett accepts Noam Chomsky's view of human language.  (Chomsky is a self-proclaimed Cartesian, openly dismissive of evolutionary accounts of language.)  I am not saying that Dennett was trying to be anti-emergent--quite the contrary--but, all the same, that's where he ended up.

I published an essay review a few years ago about precisely this issue:

Campbell, R. L. (1998) Overlooked skyhooks. [Review of Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's dangerous idea: Evolution and the meanings of life]. Metascience, 7, 489-499. [Followed by an Author's response from Daniel Dennett.]

When I have a little time, I'll put a PDF on my website.

Further, I think that you need to clarify what is "material" and what is not. 
The main point of reductive materialism is to see how far physical phenomena can account for what we know about human behavior. Given how much has been accounted for, it is not too much to go all the way and say that all of human behavior can be accounted for by material similarities and differences in human beings. 
If "material" means microphysical, very few of the theories or findings of contemporary neuroscience, even of contemporary genetics, are really accounting for anything about human beings in terms of "material similarities and differences."

If "material," on the other hand, can mean chemical, or biological, or can even be stretched to include virtually any account of brain functioning, it is in danger of losing all distinctiveness.

You also need to clarify what is "mentalistic."
This view may be wrong, but it is one of the most successful in modern science and it often explains far more than a mentalist view of related phenomena.  Information processing paradigms and bioengineering have helped greatly in understanding the structure of the nervous system.
In the history of psychology, behaviorists rejected all non-behavioristic accounts as "mentalistic."   And back in the 1950s and 1960s, when information-processing theory exerted its formative influence on modern psychology, it was often referred to as a "mentalistic" conception.

Consider synaesthesia.  Is the person whose perception exhibits the phenomenon choosing it or is it at least in part a function of that person's neurological structure? 

Here I just see a false alternative.  Virtually everything that a human being does is at least in part a function of his or her neurological structure.  That includes conscious choosing.  Meanwhile, some things that a human being does do not involve conscious choice; they may even resist being affected in any serious way by his or her past conscious choices.  There's a pretty wide range of agreement in psychology that most perceptual phenomena are not affected in any serious way by conscious choices.  So I don't see any problems for Pols here (though he may not be motivated to leave his armchair to gather data about synesthetic phenomena).

Jumping back quickly to an earlier post of yours:

I don't think that it is possible to have psychology without determinism, but maybe I'm missing something.  Or I'm misunderstanding the libertarian position.
Some psychologists have thought that you can't do science without determinism.  Others have disagreed.  Still others don't have much to say about it all.  But if you look at the kinds of hypotheses that psychologists usually test, there is no need to assume determinism.  All that needs assuming is that some causal relations account for some of the variability in the data...

For even if we discount measurement error--and the data that psychologists collect are usually rife with it--no one in psychology offers a detailed explanatory model of any psychological phenomenon that would account for 100% of the variability along the dependent variable in some relevant set of data.

Robert Campbell

 


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Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Your appeal to Dennett makes for a poor response to Pols--or to anyone else who takes emergence seriously--because Dennett fails to deliver an "evolved physicalist basis" for meaning.   In fact, the view of knowledge that Dennett presents in his book is completely anti-emergent.  The anti-emergence shows up, for instance, when Dennett accepts Noam Chomsky's view of human language.  (Chomsky is a self-proclaimed Cartesian, openly dismissive of evolutionary accounts of language.)  I am not saying that Dennett was trying to be anti-emergent--quite the contrary--but, all the same, that's where he ended up.
I'll have to wait to see your review. I've always thought of "cranes" as emergent properties, but you might have something else in mind when you use the word "emergent".

If "material" means microphysical, very few of the theories or findings of contemporary neuroscience, even of contemporary genetics, are really accounting for anything about human beings in terms of "material similarities and differences."

If "material," on the other hand, can mean chemical, or biological, or can even be stretched to include virtually any account of brain functioning, it is in danger of losing all distinctiveness.

 I'm comfortable with inferring things about the first definition from the validity of the second definition.

I would consider material to be both of your definitions in different contexts, but again, I hold the view that language is a means of communication, not the view that the proper or popular use of language is the arbiter of truth.

If people with similar genes exhibit similar behavior and I argue that it is because they have similar genes, that is surely a materialist explanation, is it not?

In the history of psychology, behaviorists rejected all non-behavioristic accounts as "mentalistic."   And back in the 1950s and 1960s, when information-processing theory exerted its formative influence on modern psychology, it was often referred to as a "mentalistic" conception.
Agreed. "Mentalist" is a bad choice on my part.  I would actually meant analysis of human behavior driven almost exclusively by reference to thoughts or the contents of the mind.

Here I just see a false alternative.  Virtually everything that a human being does is at least in part a function of his or her neurological structure.  That includes conscious choosing.  Meanwhile, some things that a human being does do not involve conscious choice; they may even resist being affected in any serious way by his or her past conscious choices.  There's a pretty wide range of agreement in psychology that most perceptual phenomena are not affected in any serious way by conscious choices.  So I don't see any problems for Pols here (though he may not be motivated to leave his armchair to gather data about synesthetic phenomena).
Where you see a false alternative, I see the crux of the issue.  My primary grouse with incompatibilist free will is its anti-scientific posture whenever a scientific finding points towards some form of determinism.  And if Pols doesn't want to gather empirical data about synaesthesia, then he should do so, so we can know that his philosophy has been influenced by and attempts to account for the research currently done in science. The problem is that many  incompatibilist free willers cannot specify the locus of indeterminism, but they then proceed to act as if determinism is depraved.  The incompatibilist free willers do not want to provide a causal mechanism for free will, yet when others do and end up sounding like determinists, the free willers launch all kinds of insults.

Moreover, I worded my point the way I did to sound moderate.  That's why it sounds like a false alternative. If I had said "purely a function" rather than "partly a function", I would have been in business, but given my complex view of causation, I can't honesty write "purely a function".


Some psychologists have thought that you can't do science without determinism.  Others have disagreed.  Still others don't have much to say about it all.  But if you look at the kinds of hypotheses that psychologists usually test, there is no need to assume determinism.  All that needs assuming is that some causal relations account for some of the variability in the data...
Sounds like determinism to me, but again, maybe I'm missing something.  How does free will factor into this?  And do the indeterminist ever consider the possibility that the variability attributed to free will might not exist, or might unimportant a good deal of the time?

For even if we discount measurement error--and the data that psychologists collect are usually rife with it--no one in psychology offers a detailed explanatory model of any psychological phenomenon that would account for 100% of the variability along the dependent variable in some relevant set of data.
Yes, but is that free will or complexity?

And does the person that thinks the answer is complexity suffer from some inherent mental defect?

Cheers,

Laj.


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