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Post 20

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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LOL.

Here is the link:

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4133&n=2


Post 21

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

What I said about natural selection is true.  If what Mr. Phoenix said is true, i.e., "A theory that rests on only positive evidence and that invokes or requires an undefined entity is doubly non-scientific"; you have not drawn a logical conclusion.  I am surprised and disappointed in you. 


Post 22

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

Silly, infantile, not worth answering.


Post 23

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 7:22pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

Is there something inaccurate about my quote from June 2nd?


Post 24

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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Andy,

Thank you for your calmly stated views.

Isn't more the case that, like any other new theory, even the author of it later took issue with certain specifc aspects of his own work? There are various debatable areas of evolutionary theory, but my understanding of it is that they don't have enough merit to throw out the baby with the bathwater. That's normal science. Look at how quantum theory developed. Develops?
This could be correct, of course.  But, this theory has been perculating for 150 years, that is a long time in dog years.  Sadly the 'debatable areas' do have 'merit', which is what all the hysteria is about.  Do you really believe if these arguments over natural selection had no force we'd hear all this screaming?  Evolution can not be wrong or the whole paradigm changes, yet scores of reputable scientists (not creationists) are on record with their doubts.    The problem is like the joke that was posted today about college policy.


Post 25

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
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Yes play with onions, shouldn't tax you much.

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Post 26

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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 Robert-

 Jody,

Silly, infantile, not worth answering.
You've got egg on your face from your ridiculous truism.  Don't tell me it's not worth answering.  If you stated it then please take the time to explain how arbitrarily redefining a word negates an argument based upon the traditional use of the word.  I'm getting god-damned tired of you I.D. apologists trying through ambiguity to dance around and disguise your true beliefs.  If you are talking about physical law or 'reality' then be precise.  Don't couch it in misleading terminology and parade around the room whistling in innocence. Every time you I.D. ranters saw the logical branch from underneath yourselves then you say "but by the use of the term god, I don't necessarily mean god."  Bullshit.  Have the courage at least to say what you mean and mean what you say.  Intelligent Design is a euphemism for creationism and you and everyone else here knows that, but since 'creationism' has been bitch-slapped by science you try to re-couch your terms and pretend as if your agenda is honestly scientific.


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Post 27

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, stop talking about ID. Leave this thread, and the other ID threads. You have done nothing but annoy almost everyone on them. We don't need you.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 8/18, 8:54pm)


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Post 28

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 9:27pmSanction this postReply
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Intelligent Design is indeed a euphemism for creationism. I've seen it used in a debate defending the existence of God.

 Even when some mention Aliens, as opposed to a God, that would still not be an explanation - it would be an appeal to ignorance. What would've caused the aliens to exist?   Even if Aliens exist, or have existed, we do not come closer to understanding life by creating yet another mystery to solve.

The mental gymnastics of The Grammarian was a pleasure to read. He should pen an essay: Intelligent Design and the Art Of Bull Shit.    


Post 29

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 11:40pmSanction this postReply
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"Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling'"

Which reminds me of the funniest bit of graffiti I've ever seen: "Gravity is a myth, the Earth sucks."
Closely followed by the work of a wag who adjusted a Police anti-crime poster to read: BE ALERT!!! ["The country needs Lerts."]

Back to ID in schools:

The irony is that the Left-wing and Right-wing morons who want Public Education are providing a classic case study in why Education should be separated from the State.

If education were fully privatised the pro-ID crowd could teach their kids that the Easter Bunny invented mankind and it would be nobody's business but theirs. The only reason I'm interested is because the bastards are raiding my wallet to pay for this crap.


Post 30

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison asks (in post 24): "Do you really believe if these arguments over natural selection had no force we'd hear all this screaming?"

and: " . . . yet scores of reputable scientists (not creationists) are on record with their doubts."

Robert, can you name of few of scientists who doubt natural selection? I'd like to examine their arguments.


WSS

Post 31

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

I wrote: 
Point five does not follow from point four. ID does not invoke God. There's no doubt that many proponents of ID think that a deity is responsible for the design they believe exists in nature, but the ID hypothesis does not lead to that conclusion.
You replied: 
The ID hypothesis must come to rest on either 1) a deity, or 2) undesigned or accidental evolution at some point, or else faces a logically infinite regress (who designed the designer...?)

Jody Allen Gomez pointed this out in post 63 on the "Intelligent Design: What Does It Accomplish" thread. The Gramarian's response to this appeared to be that he was satisfied with infinitely regressive explanations, which is of course his prerogative.
I disagree.  ID postulates nothing more than the existence of intelligence behind the apparent design of certain biological structures.  This intelligence may be greater or lesser than human intelligence.  All it means is that evolution of allegedly designed structures was directed.

As for the problem of infinite regression, I don't see it.  It's not a scientific issue.  We don't need to settle the metaphysics of original causes for a valid scientific inquiry into the origin of the Earth (or even the universe, for that matter).  So why must metaphysics intrude upon a scientific inquiry into the origin of life on Earth?

Beyond that, what philosophically precludes the possibility that animate existents have always existed just like inanimate ones?  Why must dead matter be the only type existent with that quality?  The problem with a supposition like this is that you need to come up with an explanation of how life evolved from dead matter?  That continues to elude science.  However, if life always existed like dead matter, we don't need the Darwinist hypothesis to noodle upon the origins of life on Earth.  The simplest explanation then becomes life brought life to Earth.

And don't see how any of that must invoke the existence of a deity.

As I've noted before, Daniel, I am an Objectivist and partial to Darwinism.  However, Darwinism remains unproven, and ID has challenged it with some intriguing questions.  So, to be strictly objective, I must acknowledge my ignorance and that of science in general on this topic and not make assumptions that my philosophy cannot justify.

Andy


Post 32

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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Robert,
Thank you for your calmly stated views.
Thanks for the compliment, but I wasn't the author of the passage you quoted.

Andy


Post 33

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

I recant and bow to your brilliance.  I believe your every innuendo and mischaracterization of my position and beg your forgiveness for my sins.  I'll say a novena, and a 1000 Hail Peikoffs as penance.


Post 34

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

Who died and left you boss, and who is we?  Do you have a mouse in your pocket.


Post 35

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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William,

I have done so, Grammarian has done so.  No one has cared or bothered to examine the arguments.  If you persist I may oblige you.  I can tell you this, it can't be done on Google, whatever variation you try there regarding ID or ND always pukes up a creationist site.


Post 36

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

I recant and bow to your brilliance.  I believe your every innuendo and mischaracterization of my position and beg your forgiveness for my sins.  I'll say a novena, and a 1000 Hail Peikoffs as penance.

Robert-
If what I said was a mischaracterization then tell me how so.  If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but don't hide behind empty assertions, tell me why I'm wrong and how I misunderstood you.


Post 37

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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Andy:
>As I've noted before, Daniel, I am an Objectivist and partial to Darwinism.

Well, I am not an Objectivist, and I am partial to Darwinism too.

Good to see that you are prepared to look at problems from different points of view. I take it then, that you still consider Darwinism to have the better arguments?

In that case we agree.

- Daniel



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Post 38

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Roger-

Bwha ha ha ha!!!!

Let's all go over and finish off at www.landoverbaptist.org


Post 39

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 6:11pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I'll take a search through SOLO archives for your (and Grammarian's) earlier posts. But, do give a pointer or two to the names of "scientists who doubt natural selection" noted therein, please.


WSS

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