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Post 40

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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Jody,

If what I said was a mischaracterization then tell me how so.  If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but don't hide behind empty assertions, tell me why I'm wrong and how I misunderstood you.

It doesn't matter and is not worth the bother.


Post 41

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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William,

Now that I know your are not just yanking my chain, I will be glad to.


Quotes involving the evolution of the horse:

"The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information." —*David Raup, "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology, " in The Field Museum of Natural History. January 1979, p. 25.

"The difference between Eohippus and the modern horse is relatively trivial, yet the two forms are separated by sixty million years and at least ten genera and a great number of species. If ten genera separate Eohippus from the modem horse then think of the uncountable myriads there must have been linking such diverse forms as land mammals and whales or molluscs and arthropods. Yet all these myriads of life forms have vanished mysteriously, without leaving so much as a trace of their existence in the fossil record." —*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1985), pp. 85-86.

"[Othniel C.] Marsh's classic unilineal (straight-line) development of the horse became enshrined in every biology textbook and in a famous exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History. It showed a sequence of mounted skeletons, each one larger and with a more well-developed hoof than the last. (The exhibit is now hidden from public view as an outdated embarrassment.)

"Almost a century later, paleontologist George Gaylord Simpson reexamined horse evolution and concluded that generations of students had been misled. In his book Horses, he showed that there was no simple, gradual unilineal development at all . . It was an easy mistake to make, since only one genus of horse is left today, Equus. Marsh arranged his fossils to 'lead up' to the one surviving species, blithely ignoring many inconsistencies and any contradictory evidence. Ironically, his famous reconstruction of horse evolution was copied by anthropologists. They, too, thought they saw a straight-line lineage 'leading up' to the sole surviving species of a once-varied group: Homo Sapiens." —*R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 222.

"Traditionally, fossil-hunters had sought magnificent specimens for their museums and exhibited them as a series of individuals, like O.C. Marsh's famous linear 'progression' of individual horse skeletons. Simpson made the evolution of the horse one of his specialties; his detailed quantitative studies, published in his classic book, Horses (1951), exploded Marsh's 'single-line' evolution of the horse from a fox-sized, hoofless ancestor." —*R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 406.

"The evolution of the horse—both in textbook charts and museum exhibits—has a standard iconography. Marsh began this traditional display in his illustration for Huxley. In doing so, he also initiated an errs that captures pictorially the most common of all misconceptions about the shape and pattern of evolutionary change.

"Each genus is itself a bush of several related species, not a rung on a ladder of progress. These species often lived and interacted in the same area at the same time (as different species of zebra do in Africa today.) One set of strata in Wyoming, for example, has yielded three species of Meeohippus and two of Miohippus, all contemporaries.

"The species of these bushes tend to arise with geological suddenness and then to persist with little change for long periods. Evolutionary change occurs at the branch points themselves, and trends are not continuous marches up ladders, but concatenations of increments achieved at nodes of branching on evolutionary bushes.

"Bushiness now pervades the entire phylogeny of horses.

"The model of the ladder is much more than merely wrong. It never could provide the promised illustration of evolution as progressive and triumphant, for it could only be applied to unsuccessful lineages." —*Steven Jay Gould, "Life's Little Joke," in Natural History April 1987, p. 2425.

"We now know that the evolution of the horse did not always take a simple path. In the first place it is not clear that Hyraootherium was the ancestral horse. Thus Simpson (1945) states, 'Matthew has shown and insisted that Hyraootherium (including Eohippus) is so primitive that it is not more definitely squid than taparid, rhinocerotid,' etc., but it is customary to place it at the root of the squid group." —*G. Kerkut, Implications of Evolution (1960), p. 149.

"The most famous of all squids trends, 'gradually reduction of the side toes' is flatly fictitious. There was no such trend in any line of Equidae. Eocene horses all had digitigrade padded, doglike feet with tour functional toes in front and three behind. In a rapid transition (not actually represented by fossils), early Oligocene horses lost one functional front toe and concentrated weight a little more on the middle hoot as a step-off point. This type persisted without essential change in all browsing horses." —*George Gaylord Simpson, Major Features of Evolution (1953), p. 263.

"Also the fossils of these horses are widely scattered in Europe and North America. There is no place where they occur in rock layers, one above another. There is no sequence that would indicate that the largest developed from the smallest. Some of the difference in size may be accounted for by the difference in feed. In 1942, a herd of horses was found in a box canyon in Southern California. Three of them were caught and lifted out with ropes and pulleys. Due to poor feed, their backs were no higher than a table. Later a colt was born to these captives, and with good feed it grew much larger than its parents. Since a difference in size due to feed is an acquired characteristic, it is not inherited and does not account for permanent changes in a species." —%I. N. Moors and H. E. Slusher, Biology: A Search for Order and Complexity.

  

The Archaeopteryx  seems to bear out the Darwinian concept of birds having evolved from small reptiles, specifically the Coelosaur.  Coelosaurs, in common with most other dinosaurs, did not posses collar bones. Archaeopteryx had collar bones. Collar bones are a requirement for birds (or bats) to support the pectorals and the wings.

 

But even this is moot, as the archaeopteryx is considered to have been a fraud. Since 1980, virtually all prominent scientists who have studied the fossils have charged that the two Archaeopteryx fossils with visible feathers are forgeries.

 

Darwinists said that if you analyse the DNA you will find how closely or distantly species are related.  Animals closely related, such as two reptiles, would have greater similarity in their DNA than animals that are not so closely related.  In 1981, molecular biologists at Ann Arbor University decided to test this hypothesis. They took the alpha hemoglobin DNA of a snake and a crocodile said by Darwinists to be closely related, and the hemoglobin DNA of a farmyard chicken.

 

They found that the two animals who had the least DNA sequences in common were the snake and the crocodile, only around 5%, one twentieth of their hemoglobin DNA. The two creatures whose DNA was closest were the crocodile and the chicken, where there were 17.5% of sequences in common, nearly one fifth. The DNA similarities were the reverse of that predicted by Darwinists, according to Colin Patterson in a presentation to the American Natural History Museum in November 1981


T.L. Moor, paleontologist: "The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone." (cited in _Origins?_, BG Ranganathan, p.22)

 

John T. Bonner: "We [evolutionists] have been telling our students for years not to accept any statement on its face value but to examine the evidence, and therefore it is rather a shock to discover that we have failed to follow our own sound advice." (cited in _The Twilight of Evolution_, Henry M. Morris, p.91)

 

Miles Eldredge, paleontologist: "We paleontologists have said that the history of life supports [gradual adaptive change], all the while really knowing that it does not." (cited in _Darwin on Trial_, Phillip Johnson, p.59)

 

Mary Leakey, paleoanthropologist: "All these trees of life with their branches of our ancestors, that's a lot of nonsense." (from an interview with Associated Press, Dec 10 1996)

 

Charles Darwin: "I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science." (from a letter to Asa Gray, Harvard biology professor, cited in _Charles Darwin and the Problem of Creation_, N.C. Gillespie, p.2)

 

Pierre-Paul Grasse, past President of the French Academie des Sciences, Editor of the 35-volume _Traite de Zoologie_: "Today [1977] our duty is to destroy the myth of evolution, considered as a simple, understood and explained phenomenon which keeps rapidly unfolding before us.  Biologists must be encouraged to think about the weaknesses and extrapolations that theoreticians put forward or lay down as established truths.  The deceit is sometimes unconscious, but not always, since some people, owing to their sectarianism, purposely overlook reality and refuse to acknowledge the inadequacies and falsity of their beliefs."

 

 Bounoure, past Director of Research at the National Center of Scientific Research, France: "Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grownups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science.  It is useless." (_Le Monde Et La Vie_, Oct 1963)

 

Art Battson, professor, University of CA - Berkley:  "We must bear in mind that just because neo-Darwinian evolution is the most plausible naturalistic explanation of origins, we should not assume that it is necessarily true.... In retrospect, it seems as though Darwinists have been less concerned with the scientific question of accurately explaining the empirical data of natural history, and more concerned with the religious or philosophical question of explaining the design found in nature without a designer.  Darwin's general theory of evolution may, in the final analysis, be little more than an unwarranted extrapolation from microevolution based more upon philosophy than fact.  The problem is that Darwinism continues to distort natural science." ("Facts, Fossils, and Philosophy", 17 May 1997)

 

G.A. Kerkut, biochemistry professor at the University of Southampton: "The philosophy of evolution is based upon assumptions that cannot be scientifically verified... Whatever evidence can be assembled for evolution is both limited and circumstantial in nature." (cited in _Biology_, Keith Graham et al, p.363)

 

Roger Lewin: "It is in fact a common fantasy, promulgated mostly by the scientific profession itself, that in the search for objective truth, data dictate conclusions.  Data are just as often molded to fit preferred conclusions." (_Bones of Contention_, p.68)

 

David Pilbeam: "I have come to believe that many statements we make about the how and whys of human evolution say as much about us, the paleoanthropologists and the larger society in which we live, as about anything that really happened." (cited in _Bones of Contention_, Roger Lewin, p.85)

 

 

W.R. Thompson, Introduction to _Origin of the Species_ by Darwin: "This situation, where men rally to the defense of a doctrine they are unable to define scientifically, much less demonstrate with scientific rigor, attempting to maintain its credit with the public by the suppression of criticism and the elimination of difficulties, is abnormal and undesirable in science.... I am not satisfied that Darwin proved his point or that his influence in scientific and public thinking has been beneficial."

 

Francis Crick, Nobel Prize recipient for discovery of DNA structure: "Every time I write a paper on the origin of life, I determine I will never write another one, because there is too much speculation running after too few facts." (_Life Itself_, p.153)

 

John Ambrose Fleming, President British Assoc. for Advancement of Science: "Evolution is baseless and quite incredible." (_The Unleashing of Evolutionary Thought_)

 

Michael Denton: "The hold of the evolutionary paradigm is so powerful that an idea which is more like a principle of medieval astrology than a serious 20th century scientific theory has become a reality for evolutionary biologists.... The overriding supremacy of the myth has created a widespread illusion that the theory of evolution was all but proved 100 years ago and that all subsequent biological research - paleontological, zoological and in the newer branches of genetics and molecular biology - has provided ever-increasing evidence of Darwinian ideas... There has always existed a significant minority of first-rate biologists who have never been able to bring themselves to accept the validity of Darwinian claims. In fact, the number of biologists who have expressed some degree of disillusionment is practically endless... Ultimately the Darwinian theory of evolution is no more nor less than the great cosmogenic myth of the 20th century. Like the Genesis-based cosmology which it replaced, and like the creation myths of ancient man, it satisfies the same deep psychological need for an all-embracing explanation for the origin of the world which has motivated all the cosmogenic myth makers of the past." (_Evolution: A Theory in Crisis_, p.306, 327, 358.)

 

Dr. Colin Patterson, paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History: "The explanatory value of the hypothesis of common ancestry is nil... I feel that the effects of the hypotheses of common ancestry in systematics has not been merely boring, not just a lack of knowledge, I think it has been positively anti-knowledge... Well, we're back to the question I've been putting to people: 'Is there one thing you can tell me about evolution?' The absence of answers seems to suggest that it is true:  evolution does not convey any knowledge, or if so, I haven't yet heard it." (from speech at the American Museum of Natural History, NYC, Nov 5, 1981)

 

Louis Agassiz, Harvard professor, pioneer in glaciation: "The theory of evolution is a scientific mistake." (cited in H. Enoch, _Evolution or Creation_, p.139)

 

S. Lovtrup, professor of zoophysiology at Universityof Umea, Sweden: "I have already shown that the arguments advanced by the early champions [of Darwinian theory of natural selection] were not very compelling, and that there are now [1987] considerable numbers of empirical facts which do not fit with the theory.  Hence, to all intents and purposes the theory has been falsified, so why has it not been abandoned?" (_Darwinism: The Refutation of a Myth_ p.352)

 

Steven Jay Gould, paleontologist: "We are left with very little time between the development of suitable conditions for life on the Earth's surface and the origin of life... Life apparently arose about as soon as the Earth became cool enough to support it." ("An Early Start", _Natural History_, Feb 1978)

 

"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists is the trade secret of paleontology... In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ansectors; it appears all at once and fully formed." ("Evolution's Erratic Pace", _Natural History_, May 1977)

 

"I regard the failure to find a clear 'vector of progress' in life's history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record... We have sought to impose a pattern that we hoped to find on a world that does not really display it." ("The Ediacaran Experiment", _Natural History_, Feb 1984)

 

"Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin's argument.  We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study." (_The Panda's Thumb_, p.181)

 

 

sorry about the different fonts, I can't seem to fix it.

 

 

 


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Post 42

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison posts in response to my query regarding (non-creationist) scientists who doubt natural selection.

Robert, have you read many of the cited authors? I ask because there seems a gulf between your claim and the evidence offered in support:

David Raup
-- does not deny natural selection

Michael Denton
-- now accepts natural selection (although abetted by divinely-directed selection)

Steven Jay Gould
-- was a firm believer in evolution

George Gaylord Simpson
-- argued that the fossil record supports natural selection

I. N. Moors and H. E. Slusher
-- are creationists, their book a production of creationists ("Biology: A Search for Order in Complexity, Second Edition, is the culmination of over two years of diligent study and labor by a team of educators and scientists who are committed to giving students a great understanding of and appreciation for the handiwork of Almighty God" -- link

-- these first quotes are directly taken from the appendices of the Creation-Evolution Encyclopedia online at the Creationist website 'SCIENTIFIC FACTS & EVOLUTION' (link).

* * *

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but your latter quotes ranging from Moors to Gould again seem to be lifted from another Creationist site: "The Rainbow Swastika: A Report To The Jewish People About New Age Antisemitism. This is at least the second time you have posted these quotes. Last time you were challenged on the sources -- and denied that these were 'creationist propaganda.' What up with dat, dawg?

-- whatever their provenance, these quotes do not support your earlier contention. I don't believe you are asking me to accept that the names attached to these quotes hold serious doubts about the existence of natural selection. I mean: Eldridge, Gould, Leakey, Bonner, Battson, Kerut . . . anti-evolutionists?

Reading earlier SOLO threads on Intelligent Design, I sense that your adherence to Objectivism does not mean you are always capable of engaging in sustained rational argumentation on this subject (viz., discussion of Ron Merrill's March article "Eddie's Enigma: Objectivism and Human Nature)."

I appreciate your response and thank you, but I am inclined to think that further discussion will produce more such cut and paste bumf as in post 41.


[the urge to include Intelligent Design in science curricula in high school seems such an American impulse. It is not an issue in my country, nor the UK, nor in other English-speaking countries, nor in the European Union. I salute those of you who oppose the creep of religiosity into US public education, and wish you well]


WSS


(Edited by William Scott Scherk
on 8/20, 6:57pm)


Post 43

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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William-I'm glad you responded to that.

Robert-There are people on your list who would be rolling in their grave if they saw how you quoted them out of context in order to give credence to the idea that they did not accept evolution.  I have to say that either you are parroting things you've heard/read and have no real clue about the matter or you my friend are being very deceitful.  I'll be happy to address the actual context of many of these quotes and hear your defense for posting them in the context you did.  Of course I'm sure you consider that as another debate that is "just not worth the bother."

(Edited by Jody Allen Gomez on 8/20, 5:01pm)


Post 44

Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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William and Jody,

I have already said that all I know about this subject is that Darwinism is now Neo-Darwinism.  There must be a reason for that.  I also know that scientists of various disciplines are squabbling about what natural selection is, does, or is incapable of doing.  I have also said that it is virtually impossible to research this puzzle because everything Google coughs up in creationist sites often in deep disguise.  I have also said ID doesn't have to involve God(s) unless you insist that it does.

William

I did not get the list from whatever this rainbow site you quote is, I picked up the list over a year ago and have tried my damndest to verify and cull out the creationists.  I now see that your pretended interest in this material was not for research as I had assumed, but simply to amuse yourself at my expense.  You don't seem to refute the snippet about the archeopteryx or the section on DNA.  Could you explain that?  As to Raup, Denton, Gould, & Simpson what you say may be true, but they seem to have trouble with the supposed evolution of the horse, which again you have not bothered to comment on.

Jody,

If you consider these quotes out of context, and can provide that context I will be glad to learn about it. 


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Post 45

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 5:10pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison writes:
"I have already said that all I know about this subject is that Darwinism is now Neo-Darwinism. There must be a reason for that."
-- to my mind, 'Darwinism' is the bigger term that subsumes the second. Neo-Darwinism is another way of saying 'the modern evolutionary synthesis.' This refers to the combination of Darwin's theory of evolution of species by natural selection with Mendelian genetics and population genetics -- accomplished in the last century.

Robert continues:
"I also know that scientists of various disciplines are squabbling about what natural selection is, does, or is incapable of doing."
-- I disagree on several levels, agree on one.

Natural selection is, of course, an analogue to 'artificial selection' -- which refers to selective breeding of plants and animals (incidentally, you may be interested in one such example of artificial selection: a lengthy Russian experiment on domestication of foxes. See a brilliant introductory article at Developmental Biology Online here for a glimpse of this research and its implications for evolutionary theory).

Both Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace, Darwin's contemporary who published an almost identical theory, applied Malthus famous dicta to the epic sweep of organisms' struggle for existence over time.

[a great mnemonic for evolution is to envision the force of human efforts to perfect a crop or milking cow (or wolf/dog?) replaced by the implacable forces of nature. A thought experiment: a human attempt to force speciation, the subject a terrier breed, the timeline 300,000 years, the null hypothesis that no speciation will occur]

It is a profound insight into natural forces that provides the weight and heft of Darwinism's scientific legacy, from this insight a key framework of modern biology was assembled.

Surely you will agree, Robert, that the theory is as profound, simple and elegant as E=MC2 (whether or not you would agree to either theory's objective truth)?

So, the principle of natural selection is not at all at issue, you see. All agree, evolutionists and IDers alike, on what it is.

It follows than that I must disagree that there is any scientific doubt about what the theory of natural selection does; it provides an explanatory framework for evolution, it provides an explanatory framework for speciation, it provides the central spine for all the present evolutionary sciences, from developmental biology to evolutionary psychology.

Where I might agree with your assertion is the sense that there is scientific 'squabbling' over the effects, targets, ramifications, temporal pace, etc., of natural selection. Thus, rightly, you can point to the clashes over group-selection, or the 'selfish gene', punctuated equilibria, as evidence of dissension. I would counter that this is normal, expected and thoroughly positive and rational -- thrashing out the details of any thumping great finding of science is a necessarily fraught enterprise. This is the great sport of science, one might say!

Perhaps what you do not allow is that this simple equation is what unites all the supposed squabblers. So, by way of example, Gould is not attacking *Evolution* or *Natural Selection* whatsoever in his remarks on Eohippus -- he is critiquing shoddy methodology and premature conclusions (among other aspects of scientific hubris).

Robert explains the provenance of his second block of quotes:
"I did not get the list from whatever this rainbow site you quote is, I picked up the list over a year ago and have tried my damndest to verify and cull out the creationists.
This claim is not credible. I note an exact correspondence between the two excerpted lists -- neither shows any evidence of culling.

Robert alludes to a seeming evasion of points in his list post.
You don't seem to refute the snippet about the archeopteryx or the section on DNA. Could you explain that? As to Raup, Denton, Gould, & Simpson what you say may be true, but they seem to have trouble with the supposed evolution of the horse, which again you have not bothered to comment on.
Dawg, I'm sorry, but you promised me scientists -- the bit about archeopteryx is hoojie-boojie from 'controversial writer, broadcaster and journalist' Richard Milton (of the kooky www.alternativescience.com, where you can find such scientific stories as "How the CIA's top Psychic Spy scored a bull's eye on a top secret Russian weapons base -and was ignored"!) -- here Milton mixes up the pictures of a fraudulent Archaeoraptor published by National Geographic with a presumed Archaeopteryx hoax. What I am saying, Robert is that Milton is wrong, over his head, engorged with irrationalism. Why do you think Dawkins intervened to prevent it being published in THES? Yoiks.

Please, take a look at recent solid science news in these areas, not from the crankish and kooked-out. See, for example, the beautiful evocative images presented by the American Museum of Natural History, here, or read up an accessible summary of research from Dinobuzz at Berkeley's fabulous Museum of Paleontology site.

To your second point above, Dawg! my brother, my colleague in SOLOosity! -- more Milton as promulgated at more than several creationists mills . . . again, I had thought you were bringing me examples of scientists, my brother in reason . . . the Milton excerpts are bunk, anyhow, dawg, debunked here. No evolutionist presumes that snakes are more closely related to crocodiles than to chickens; crocodiles are far more ancient relicts than snakes. In other words, the findings confirm evolutionary predictions about DNA homologies.

To your the third point: none of the non-creationist blurbs about horse evolution take issue with evolution of the horse or natural selection. There are interesting corrections, as noted above.

I think I am going to fuck off and go do some light reading on the ID movement elsewhere. I don't think the debate here is likely to best that found at Panda's Thumb (for example the trenchant "Meyer's Hopeless Monster"). I'm surprised at Objectivists who support teaching ID in science classes in America.

Robert, I suggest you also fuck off.

Post 46

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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William,

I have been playing this game with intrinsicists like you,  when you were still denying the existence of the Coelacanth or the possibility of cataclysm. 

 

I am not going to spend hours researching this or that, just so you can write back with a different expect who poo-poos it.  The experts don't agree, that's a given.

 

'Darwinism' is the bigger term that subsumes the second.

No William, Neo means new in latin.  ND is not called that simply because it includes Mendel etc., Darwin knew who Mendel was.

 

There is no deception on my part about the list .  It was culled before you saw it the first time.  The only deception is on your part by asking for a list that you had already rejected,  just so you could play the smart bitch.  I am getting tired of living in a world where smart bitches exist.

 

Why do you think Dawkins intervened to prevent it being published in THES? Yoiks

Because he is a bitch like you-- a censor, and a book burner, do you have other reasons to love him?

 

Your Berkeley reference for intrinsic faith in the Archeopteryx fossils includes an odd footnote:

 Archaeopteryx
A particularly important and still contentious discovery is Archaeopteryx
lithographica, found in the Jurassic Solnhofen Limestone of southern Germany, ...
www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/archaeopteryx.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

Is it 'contentious' for you as well?  Do you know that examination of the first archaeopteryx fossil found has been forbidden for the last 15 years?  Is that more of Dawkins' wisdom?

Robert, I suggest you also fuck off.

Thanks Mary. I'll hasten to take your advice.


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Post 47

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:08amSanction this postReply
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Robert, to recap, I asked you for names of credible, non-creationist scientists who had serious doubts about natural selection. The selection of quotes that followed did not support your contention.

When you write "intrinsicists like you," you lose me. When you write that you are not going to spend hours researching 'this or that,' I am surprised. When you write that 'experts don't agree,' your argument dissolves into incoherence.

You had originally written, "all I know about this subject is that Darwinism is now Neo-Darwinism. There must be a reason for that." I suggested the modern synthesis (an unremarkable note of scientific history) as a reason. You reject this, on unclear grounds. You write, in response to my "Darwinism' is the bigger term that subsumes the second" that 'Neo means new in latin.' Incorrect (Neo derives from Greek). You also claim "ND is not called that simply because it includes Mendel etc.," which is entirely wrong. You also claim that "Darwin knew who Mendel was." This is also incorrect, in the sense that Darwin applied Mendelian principles to his explanatory framework -- the point being that the synthesis ocurred in the 20th century, not Darwin's time.

Regarding any 'deception,' none was charged on my part -- I demonstrated that your claims were not supported by the evidence you presented; the evidence you forked up was forked up (for a second time) from two Ur-creationist websites. That is clear from the correspondences between your posting and my references. You did not "cull" the creationists and non-scientists from the assembled references. Your charge of deception on my part is ill-rendered and vacuous: I discovered that you had posted the entire creationist talking points list twice only *after* your second posting, of course. In any case, posting the same cherry-picked quotes twice does nothing to advance your argument, as I demonstrated not only by setting some of the quotes in context, but also by giving you a rational explanation of how they came to be assembled. Please see the excerpt at bottom for an understanding of Jody and my (and Hong's) objection to that type of quote-mining. Bear in mind that when you spit up undigested propaganda from the creationist mills, the appearance of ignorance on your part is emphasized ("why is Robert rehashing identical creationist talking-points again?").

My Berkeley reference to the evolution of birds (as understood by contemporary paleontology) is sound. As you will note from the page on Archeopteryx, there are more than a half a dozen examples of fossils noted. As I patiently explained in an earlier post, non-scientist Richard Milton has mixed up his history. Since the first charges (by Hoyle) of forgery, the profusion of fossil examples of avian ancestors has exploded (particularly from China). As I noted, Milton is wrong, over his head, and in thrall to creationist dogma.

You have no argument, Robert, with which I can engage. I prefer Panda's Thumb for that reason.

To recap: you made a specific claim, and offered evidence to support it. The evidence was spurious. The grimly stupid ad hominem interjections which followed (Bitch, deceiver, "Mary") are irrelevant and boorish. Why have you stooped to sexist insult instead of engaging with my good-faith critique?

Game. Set. Match. Bye bye.


WSS

"If you aren't trying to find out the truth about whatever-it-is, you aren't really inquiring. Genuine inquiry seeks the truth with respect to some question or topic; pseudo-inquiry seeks to make a case for the truth of some proposition or propositions determined in advance." -- Susan Haack "Preposterism and Its Consequences"

____________

"When I first started investigating the evolution/creationism
issue I noticed that anti-evolutionists were constantly
quoting scientists in ways that made it appear they had grave
reservations about modern theory. I knew for a fact that the
people being quoted were themselves passionate defenders of
evolution. Initially I found it difficult to understand why
these scientists would defend a theory they apparently had
deep reservations about.

So I investigated dozens of cases like the one described in
this essay. In every case I found that the quotation was
badly out of context. Sometimes what was presented as a minor
revision of an esoteric part of evolutionary theory was
exaggerated into a criticism of the theory as a whole. Other
times, like the situation described here, the meaning of a
statement was so twisted that it was made to seem to be
saying the precise opposite of the author’s clearly stated
intention. In every case the quotation was made to appear to
mean something different from the writer’s actual opinion.

This explains why scientists become so angry when dealing
with this subject. If the issue were simply that mainstream
science says, for example, that current theory is fully
capable of accounting for information growth in the genome,
while a handful of dissenters claimed otherwise, then I would
be all in favor of engaging in polite debate. The reality,
however, is that ID proponents are entirely shameless in
presenting the most malicious caricatures of modern science.
In response to such behavior, anger is entirely appropriate."
Creation Watch - CSICOP
(Edited by William Scott Scherk
on 8/25, 12:11am)


Post 48

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:53amSanction this postReply
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I was premature in writing "Bye Bye" to the inimitable Robert Davison in the preceding post. Since my eyes had glazed over at Robert's helpful characterization of me as "Bitch," I missed this gem on first pass:

WSS: "Why do you think Dawkins intervened to prevent [Milton's creationist diatribe] being published in THES? Yoiks."

RD: "Because he is a bitch like you-- a censor, and a book burner, do you have other reasons to love him?"

A) I love Dawkins when he comes out swinging against old-time religion. He approaches Mencken in vastly-entertaining wrathful exuberance.

B) I love Dawkins in mid-explication: his, next to rival Gould's, is the finest contemporary voice of evolutionary theory.

C) I love Dawkins for his Randian arrogance: how encompassing and robust is his argumentarium -- he reads like a chillingly-intelligent habitué of the Gulch. I would gladly clean his cabin and cook his meals.

D) At the age of some 60-odd, Dawkins is a very sexy man (evidence here ), as am I (evidence here). Yes, Robert, Richard Dawkins turns me on with his mind and his values. If, after cleaning and cooking, I allowed him to rationally and thoroughly ravish me, I am sure you will understand.

E) Robert, wouldn't you rather be a "smart bitch" who knows her way around the neighbourhood -- who zealously defends the property of rational thought against intruders -- rather than a dithery old dog wheezing and grumping in the dark?

G) "Burner of books, William! Censor! Beeyotch! Smart beeyotch!" Grrrrrrr. Gonna get me an avian fossil 'n' chew its wings off. Grrrrr. Gonna read me a book one day. Woof woof woof. Fart. Snore.


WSS
(Edited by William Scott Scherk
on 8/25, 1:12am)

(Edited by William Scott Scherk
on 8/25, 1:17am)


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