About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


Post 80

Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steven,

I found your post to be extremely interesting, as you show (not say) exactly why I urge extra attention to this issue.

You stated, "Tell me please how this could be when you have thrown in one-hundred disclaimers against this conclusion, yet your own words lead to it regardless."

Question. My words lead you to conclude that I think you have an unhealthy soul? (I do not think that, by the way.)

Which words?

Or was it my approach?

As a writer and translator and performing artist, I am particularly sensitive to the impression caused by public presentations and publications. The very fact that you state that you have an impression that my words do not bear out demonstrates very clearly how vital this component is in influencing the reader.

You believe that I am stating a message that is simply not there. You are claiming that I am stating that your article conveys a message that is simply not there.

My urge to caution regarding the rationality and glorification of war stories is because of that level, where all kinds of the wrong buttons can be pushed. My simple urge to caution (in the context of a discussion of this issues) makes you believe that I think you are a monster.

Neither conclusion is correct - you do not like killing and I do not think you are a monster. Yet they are reached by others - not just you and me - but by several posters on this thread.

Can you now see how heaps of praise for a bloody victory in a war story can make one think you like killing?

For the record, I also stated that I liked much of your article. Frankly, under a severely pro-reason slant (with a balance of much more emphasis on reason-involved issues than the violence), it could make one hell of a screenplay.

On the duty thing, please, no knee-jerks. A duty to promote survival (as I clearly stated) is conditional, not contextless. It means that some acts (which can be called "duties" under that usage) are necessary to perform if survival is to be attained. Not blind duty for obedience's sake. The meaning I used for "duty" has nothing at all to do with Kant. It is a synonym for "condition," with an emotional charge of "distasteful." I stand by what I wrote.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 8/28, 8:44pm)


Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Post 81

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
No, Michael, it was not your approach, it was the logical steps from your words. Please, read the numbers in the post and ask yourself how on earth I could conclude anything else.

In some contexts, and this may dignify an "unhealthy soul" to you, I think that killing to defend your values is a good thing, and should be celebrated. Does that make me a monster?

Did it make Ayn Rand a monster when she said "better to see the Reds dead"??

I hate to go ARIan on you, but Rand would agree more with celebrating rational killing then saying it's something that has to be done but should always be mourned, regardless of context.

Post 82

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steven,

Do you mean to say you actually enjoy the physical act of watching the life go out of another living organism and knowing that you caused it under certain conditions?

Or do you merely think that having to do it is a good thing if your basic values (like your own life and that of others your care about) are threatened?

I will grant that there is a primal adrenaline rush in the heat of battle, but that applies to the bad guys too so I see no moral import in it. That is just part of our nature.

I refuse to be part of a false package concept. Let's be very clear about what we mean and not use twisted "logical steps."

I say what I mean and mean what I say. You are free to logically conclude anything you wish from what I say in the manner you understand logic, but I will not sanction it with my agreement.

Your conclusion about my stance is completely false and a total misuse of logic.

Michael


Post 83

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Apologies to Steven Druckenmiller, who I have been calling"steve" on this thread.

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 84

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Just because a group of numerically inferior people won out over a numerically superior one is no proof of rationality . If that was any criterion , then Islam is the most rational religion in the world - most of Islam's early victories were a small group of fanatics winning over a larger , sometimes better-armed army .

And this topic is rather painful to me , because I know that , like the ancient Greeks , India has achieved great heights - in literature , music , and specially mathematics and astronomy .

Then came the waves of Islamic invaders , and most of those achievements were lost - it took months to completely burn the university at Nalanda ( which also happened to be the first university in the world ) . One of the greatest cities of the world , whose markets were the envy of most travellers , was sacked , looted , and depopulated ( the invaders razed what they could , killed and raped who they could , and looted what they wanted to) , was the city of Vijaynagar . The arrival of the Brits was also equally bad - they tried to suppress whatever sense of history remained .

Neither the Islamic invaders not the Brits were any bringers of any culture of rationality - in fact , they tried to crush whatever little remained .

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 85

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Islamic invaders not the Brits were any bringers of any culture of rationality - in fact , they tried to crush whatever little remained."

So now thew Brits and Islamic invaders are being equated?

"Just because a group of numerically inferior people won out over a numerically superior one is no proof of rationality "

This would be a GREAT argument if anyone was arguing that a numerically inferior force was more rational for having won.

No matter how hard you might try to make things clear, there are always those who will stop at nothing to take things the wrong way.

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 86

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
M. Kelly, instead of merely saying that I have twisted your words to form a conclusion, please tell me HOW I have. You can't just make that kind of assertion and back it up, especially when I compiled ample proof in my post with your own words as quotes.

In short, you are trying to have it both ways and please everybody. You realize that your position on values and killing for values is wrong, and instead of admitting your error, you are trying to make yourself the advocate of the middle ground. It's not going to work. Now, you must choose...either I have a monstrous soul or I do not. And if I do not, please explain the words I put together as a proof and how I erred, because either you or I have committed an error.


P.S. Scott, please, my defenders can call me steve and that's just fine with me :-)
(Edited by Steven Druckenmiller
on 8/31, 6:40pm)


Post 87

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steven,

I thought of taking this bait and making a compilation of quotes to contradict you (and they are abundant). I will only state one, from my Post 80:
... I do not think you are a monster.
What is so hard to understand about that? Since you do not understand it yet, maybe somebody else can help me out here? One of us does not speak English.

Another false dichotomy - "either you or I have committed an error." Wrong. I have stated that the issue is complicated and that there are subtexts to the messages that stories communicate. I will not repeat everything once again.

Sorry, I'm just not going to play by your rules. As I said, fucking misuse of logic.

Sounds like you are trying to pick a fight instead of discussing an idea. (And I don't mind fighting if need be, but I vastly prefer discussing ideas.)

Michael


Post 88

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
How do you misuse logic - logic is non-contradictory identification... if what is identified is not contradictory, how is it misused?

Post 89

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 10:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Misuse, Robert, by making contradictory claims and stating that they are not.

One example:

Here is his phrase, "... you have thrown in one-hundred disclaimers against this conclusion..." I believe he was talking about my words when he used the term "disclaimer. But even so, he makes a false conclusion, and claims that my words lead to it (despite just stating that they do not) and asks how that was possible.

It was possible because it was a fucking misuse of logic on his part. Maybe I should have said fucking incompetent attempt at logic.

Context dropping is another case. There are others.

Anyway, one thing is obvious. He has no intention of trying to understand what I am saying and wants to argue for argument's sake. I have better things to do and I suspect he does too. He wrote a pretty good article (given my stated reservations on the subtext's message), he is a soldier and I respect both. The readers of these posts can come to their own conclusions, since I do not think we are going to budge each other, only bicker.

Michael

Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 90

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Of course I'm not equating the Brits and the Islamic invaders - mentioning them doing the same thing in the same sentence does not an equation make . Their motives were different - the Isalmists came for loot/conquest and to spread Islam , while the Brits came just to loot ( or rather , to drain away whatever wealth was accumulated over thousands of years ) . If you start using that as a method of equating two things , saying that I ate some bread and you too ate some bread would mean that you are me - obviously false .

And isn't the victory of the Europeans in spite of the imbalance of numbers taken to be an indication of their superior rationality the premise of this article ?

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 91

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
All I have asked, M. Kelly, is for you to demonstrate how my logic erred. Merely saying it erred when I believe it did not is not going to convince me. And, in addition, I have come to the conclusion that you have said both things, one outright and one in the context of logic from statements derived. You have told me which one you chose; good, great. Now, I honestly want to know, other than your foul-mouthed bromides about my logic skills, where my logic erred. That is all.

Someone can mouth that they did not mean what they said all day..i.e. when we look at the overall context of say, Communists. They will certainly say that whatever they are doing will not cause harm X, but it will, as long as logic follows. Therefore, you can say you didn't mean what I identified, but I want to know where the error is. I would honestly consider it a favor.

Additionally, I believe, as do you, in saying what you mean, and that's it. And for this article, that's what I did. There's no Freudian "subtext" about it.
(Edited by Steven Druckenmiller
on 9/01, 2:11pm)


Post 92

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steven,

Please read Post 89, paragraph 3 and try to tell me what you don't understand about it. I know that you understand English. You keep harping on that you don't understand the logical error, you read the damn thing, and still keep harping.

But since you do not understand, you mentioned my words (you called them disclaimers), practically stated that they meant one thing, then claimed that they meant the contrary through "logic." You want your cake and eat it too. Illogical, sorry.

As a matter of fact, you have merely opined that my own statements logically lead you to certain conclusions. However you yourself do not show any case for that whatsoever. Merely an opinion.

But now it's Communist and Freudian? There's a helluva start of a another subtext for you. Sorry, I ain't either and I'm still not going to play by those rules.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 9/01, 8:00pm)


Post 93

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"M. Kelly, instead of merely saying that I have twisted your words to form a conclusion, please tell me HOW I have. You can't just make that kind of assertion and [not] back it up"

Exactly.
(Edited by Scott DeSalvo
on 9/01, 8:51pm)


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 94

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 8:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Sorry, I'm just not going to play by your rules. As I said, fucking misuse of logic...Sounds like you are trying to pick a fight instead of discussing an idea. "

READ: you are correct so now I will accuse you of being mean spirited rather than consider the possibility that you are correct.

Post 95

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Anyway, one thing is obvious. He has no intention of trying to understand what I am saying and wants to argue for argument's sake."

So either Robert, Steven and I ARE just utter jackasses intent on misunderstanding you, or there is another problem here, hmm?

Post 96

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"... to drain away whatever wealth was accumulated over thousands of years"

Yes, I'm am sure that this was precisely the intent of the Brits, you erudite evil apologist.

Post 97

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 9:57pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mark Steyn wrote a great column about the benevolence of the British empire. The attempt to equate it with the Islamic hordes is another excellent example of multiculturalist bullshit. If you'll pardon the collectivist undertones of this sentiment ... I'm proud to have British blood running through my veins.


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 98

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I can only assume, M. Kelly, that, since you refuse to actually refute your own words and the conclusion of said words by disproving them (note: just merely saying that you did not mean it does not mean that you are right), that therefore my argument is correct. I was honestly hoping that you would tell me where I went wrong in the statements I put together in a logical proof, but, since you will not, this argument is over.

This was all I ever asked, for you to reconcile your claims against your own words Therefore, Steven must have an unhealthy soul. Tell me please how this could be when you have thrown in one-hundred disclaimers against this conclusion, yet your own words lead to it regardless. That was it, and all you have essentially said is "nu-uh, I didn't say that". But you did, at least in my mind, and it's not just an opinion, it's the use of your words.

You may return to LOLing and bonking people, rather than seriously engage me, because this refusal to either confirm or logically refute my earlier post is getting us nowhere.


(Edited by Steven Druckenmiller
on 9/01, 10:08pm)


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 99

Friday, September 2, 2005 - 2:03amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Compared to the Islamists , the British were definitely benevolent . But where did I try to equate them ? Why are words being put in my mouth ? I said they were both in India to plunder what they could . Was I wrong ? Maybe you don't know of the sort of laws that were enacted when the British came to power . Let me give you some examples .

The Brits set up a coercive monopoly on the sale and processing of cotton . They has a declared monopoly on opium , and farmers were not allowed ( by law ) to sell it to anyone else . Another infamous example is indigo - farmers who would otherwise have grown food were commanded ( by force of arms ) to grow indigo - which , due to the lack of modern farming techniques , caused the land to become fallow for a period of two to three years . Another one is the salt law - only certain British enterprises could manufacture salt , and no Indian could manufacture salt or own any salt beds . In fact , it was illegal to even take a gallon of seawater home and dry it to get salt ! Some economic freedom , that .

All Indian publications were censored , and anyone found writing anti-Brit material was punished .

Ever heard of the Jallianwallah Bagh massacre ? Where a large group of unarmed , peaceful protestors were holding a meeting in a small , closed garden , and the infamous General Dyer ordered his troops to surround the place , block the only exit , and then to open fire on the protestors , killing a huge number , including the women and children ( a link to the Wiki article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritsar_Massacre ) ?

About the wealth remark - India's GDP as a percentage of the world economy was reduced from the pre-British figure of 22 % ( at that time , the whole of Europe accounted for 23 % ) to 2 % at the time of independence . So yes , India was wealthy .

The institutions which the British set up in India ( which were to later save our ass ) were not useful to any Indian before independence . They were applicable only to Brits residing in India , and if you were an Indian , there wasn't much scope for justice ( unless you were some noble favoured by the Brits or something ) . I admit , however , that they were immensely useful ( and could have been said to have kept the country together ) after independence .



Still , the Islamists were much , much worse . Again , I never tried to equate Islamic invaders and British invaders . Which of my remarks gave anyone that idea ?

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.