About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


Post 60

Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy,

I asked you to ground your conception of wealth. You have not done this yet. You have not even given a definition of what you mean by "wealth." Without definition and grounding, I just don't grasp what you are trying to assert here. All I know about it is, that so far it has not made any sense.

In my conception, the genus of "wealth" is "value" - and therefore the differentia has to answer, Of value for what? And to whom? Until you answer this, all that I hear from you is noise.



Post 61

Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
No Ayn Rand without us, her foundation!
Jon, pull your head out of your ass.  Do you think Miss Rand would have time to write anything if she had to grow her food, build her own shelter, make her own clothes?  Or even with all those things in place, how much would she have had to do her great works if she had to tend her own bookkeeping, lawyering, and doctoring?

I have been very clear on what must come first in an economy for other higher pursuits to be taken up.  To note that the foundation is the production of physical things like food and shelter is hardly socialist.  It's a fact.  Your insistence upon shouting out otherwise means you are either willfully blind to reality or you are just fencing with me in bad faith.  I won't waste my time with you any further.

Andy


Post 62

Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

You *have* been wasting your time, or, as Adam puts it: making noise. Stopping now is wise and I admire you for taking that tactic.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 63

Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,
I asked you to ground your conception of wealth. You have not done this yet. You have not even given a definition of what you mean by "wealth." Without definition and grounding, I just don't grasp what you are trying to assert here. All I know about it is, that so far it has not made any sense.
I've only defined wealth a number of times now.  It is the production of physical goods.  Agree or disagree I have defined it.
In my conception, the genus of "wealth" is "value" - and therefore the differentia has to answer, Of value for what? And to whom? Until you answer this, all that I hear from you is noise.
Because that's all you want to hear, Adam.  You have exhausted my patience with you.  I'm tired of overlooking your insinuations like in this thread today that I am dishonest.  You have a malignant approach to people, slamming them with baseless accusations and suspicions.  A decent rational person can extend only so much goodwill in exchange for your poison.  I will not bother with you again.

Andy


Post 64

Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I've only defined wealth a number of times now.  It is the production of physical goods.  Agree or disagree I have defined it.
Disagree.  If this were the case, you could quit your day job and sit at home conjuring up whatever 'physical goods' suited your fancy.


Post 65

Monday, September 12, 2005 - 6:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
All,
I don't yet have a firm opinion on who's right here, since I'm wondering if it's nothing more at bottom than a semantic disagreement over the definition of a word.

I took the time to look up "wealth" in several dictionaries, including OED and Webster.  They seem to agree that the term is synonymous with "material goods", suggesting that Andy is using it in this sense.

On the other hand, I'm inclined to side with Andy's disputants, since I can trade my services for physical goods or other services, and this sure strikes me as "wealth".

The dictionaries don't seem to have it quite right, in ths case. (Not too surprising given the topic.)

Adam, wouldn't the differentia have to specify the kind of value?   'To whom and for what' don't strike me as directly relevant here.

Jody, sorry I just don't understand your post.  Are you suggesting that Andy's view commits him to the proposition that goods can be magically produced?

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 9/12, 6:31pm)


Post 66

Monday, September 12, 2005 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jeff-
No, I'm not saying that goods are 'magically' produced all, what I'm saying is that he has yet to answer Adams questions:

In my conception, the genus of "wealth" is "value" - and therefore the differentia has to answer, Of value for what? And to whom? Until you answer this, all that I hear from you is noise.

What I was saying is that the mere production of a 'physical good' is not good enough(check the history of 'producing' to see how many failed because no one valued their wares).


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 67

Monday, September 12, 2005 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

For thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of years Native Americans used oil that bubbled up to the surface as war paint and make-up. That was its value. What was missing?

Post 68

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 5:00amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jon,

I apologize for insulting you.  I let Adam annoy me and then blasted you.  Otherwise, I stand by what I wrote.  I agree with you that I have been wasting my time with you and Adam.

Andy


Post 69

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 5:20amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jeff,
On the other hand, I'm inclined to side with Andy's disputants, since I can trade my services for physical goods or other services, and this sure strikes me as "wealth".
That's OK.  Call services wealth if that makes better sense to you than my definition.  That doesn't change the hierachy of economic activity I have identified.  First we must produce goods, then we can provide services, and finally we can engage in aesthetic pursuits.  It's like building a house:  First the foundation, then the frame, and finally the roof.

I must think Miss Rand would be perplexed by the mental blocks some here have regarding the primacy of material production.  Its primacy is not in contradiction with her observation that the human mind is where everything starts.  It is literally true that you can't dig a ditch without thinking about it.  Not every thought that is valuable must be artsy-fartsy, high-minded deepness.  In fact, give me one thought that is valuable before exerting some sweat to make it real.

For example, a novel exists only after it has some physical presence - if nothing else a computer file containing a manuscript.  The same with a song, and its value only increases by being performed.  The design for the next great invention is nothing until it is a blueprint.  Let's take something prosaic, like raw land.  A homesteader envisions a farm, but his dream is only that until he at least does the minimum of staking out the land to physically define what he owns.

So, if we think about what we value economically, there is no idea that has any value until there is a physical manifestation of it.  Now if that physicality is in the form of an action (like a service) instead of a thing (like food or goods), and you want to call all of that wealth, I'll take your point.  But that doesn't change what must come first in an economy.

Andy


Post 70

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 5:27amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jody,
What I was saying is that the mere production of a 'physical good' is not good enough(check the history of 'producing' to see how many failed because no one valued their wares).
This is the problem of conflating wealth and value.  Services can be just as worthless as unwanted wares.  In fact, even more so, because at least physical goods consist of material that has value as scrap.  A completed service can literally add up to nothing.  I have written nothing that requires wealth to be highly valued.

Andy


Post 71

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:38amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy,
I should have written more carefully about what I was inclined to agree with and what I was inclined to regard as unlikely to be true.

If this is your thesis:
"First we must produce goods, then we can provide services, and finally we can engage in aesthetic pursuits.  It's like building a house:  First the foundation, then the frame, and finally the roof."

I agree, with obvious qualifications. (I.e. Some services can, and must, precede, the production of some goods, etc.)



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 72

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ayn Rand pointed out in For The New Intellectual that two types of people have guided history - those who deal with the material and those who deal with the spiritual.

On the predatory (irrational) level, she called them Attila and Witch Doctor (with names accredited to Nathaniel Branden).

On the rational level, she called them Producer and Intellectual.

This division - material/intellectual (spiritual) exists in all societies, from the primitive to the most advanced.

Since the "services" provided by the intellectual side have such value to the nature of man, then the ideas they produce are wealth also. (The "of what value to whom" thing.)

Medicine, law and many other such services have their roots in the primitive real-life Witch Doctor or Medicine Man. Now these areas have specialists - but the Intellectuals are the ones who still deal with the fundamentals.

What these people (both Witch Doctors and Intellectuals) do has been treated as wealth by mankind and their material needs have been provided by their respective societies.

Noting a difference between the production of ideas and material wealth is not wrong. Calling such ideas as something other than basic wealth is.

Michael


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 73

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jeff,
I agree, with obvious qualifications. (I.e. Some services can, and must, precede, the production of some goods, etc.)
I agree with your qualifications.  In a modern, sophisticated capitalist economy, material production and services can look like: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?  No argument that the production of an automobile required a heap of engineering first.  In turn engineering needed a body of scientific knowledge to draw upon.  But how did that scientist get the time to make his discoveries?  Because he was not busy growing his own food and building his own house.  Someone else had to do produce those physical things in sufficient abundance to free up the time of the scientist.

It comes down to this:  Ideas are economically worthless until they are physically manifested in some way.  That physicality is wealth.  The value of that wealth depends upon its supply and our demand for it.  And to return the initial issue of this thread, it is preferable that that value be priced in a currency that is resistant to the distortions of inflation and deflation.

Andy


Post 74

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Let's say there is X amount of gold available for money. A decease in X is deflation. An increase is inflation.

Gold in mined increasing the supply. Most of that probably becomes money. That's inflation.

When Spain conquered the New World a tremendous new supply of gold came into Europe resulting in inflation.

In a free economy there is no central bank controlled by government, or, if you will, the state.

There will be many types of monetary instruments, not all backed by gold. These all will fluctuate in value.

In today's economy the value of paper money is maintained by legal tender laws and by tremendous debt that needs to be retired in dollars.

This is all I know about money (aside from what passes through my hands). Will someone please rip me to shreds?

--Brant


Post 75

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Friggin' Commie.

Post 76

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What, Jon - you saying the grasshoppers are all over the place? [it's a PLAGUE...]

Post 77

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Brant,

Everything you said about money is basically sound, except that inflation and deflation are more usefully defined as rates of change in the money supply that exceeds the rate of economic growth or contraction as opposed to absolute changes in the money supply.  As for this statement ...
In a free economy there is no central bank controlled by government, or, if you will, the state.  There will be many types of monetary instruments, not all backed by gold. These all will fluctuate in value.
That is to be hoped for.  In a way that already happens in the U.S. in a limited way.  Publicly traded companies use their stock as currency to buy key employees and other companies.

Andy


Post 78

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ideas that hold the fabric of civilization together (not just give blueprints for physically produced goods) are primary wealth.

For example, Objectivism (in all five areas, metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics, and esthetics) is primary wealth.

Goods without ideas are not wealth. Ideas without goods are not either.

Both need each other to function in a society.

btw - One essential characteristic of wealth is that it is traded. The idea of wealth for a stranded individual on a desert island is meaningless. There are only basic survival necessities and there is no one to trade with.

Michael

Post 79

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

While worded poorly, your post seems to agree with what I have been saying about the mind being the foundation of all values, that there can be no ‘physical wealth’ without mind.

However, regarding your btw—what are you talking about?

Why is it only basic necessities possible to me on a desert island? And why should having no one to trade with mean that I can’t possess or grow my wealth?

I might build several shelters; my summer shelter might be quite fine. If it’s my sixth shelter, surely it goes beyond basic necessity. If I lose it in a storm, along with some stores of food, my favorite canoe, etc., then my wealth is thusly reduced.

What are trying to say?

Jon


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.