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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 1:08amSanction this postReply
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Brilliant, Michael, just fucking brilliant!


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Post 1

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 6:10amSanction this postReply
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This reminds me of a joke I read years ago:

Whoever turns the other cheek will likely experience matching bruises.


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
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Brilliant, Michael, just fucking brilliant!
I agree!

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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Yes! There are some very exciting implications here. Modern Christianity and Objectivism agree on quite a lot of the same moral conclusions and actions. It was my own personal recognition of this fact that made the philosophy so palatable to me in the first place. If our aim is to spread Objectivism, then finding and utilizing this common ground is extremely important. Not only are the disillusioned Christians the majority in the west, but they recognize explicit moral principles and are more apt to thinking in fundamentals than your typical secular humanist.

MSK you should start a series on this! Pick various Christian adages and teachings and show their logical roots/fallacies and implications. I think it would be something that would prove to be very important for the O'ist movement.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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Excellent article Michael.  I also found this additional information which may, or may not be true, but makes some sense:

""If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also." 
Most people probably think of a right hook here, but a right hook would hit the left cheek.  A left hook would strike the right cheek, but in Jesus' day the left hand was reserved for unclean tasks.  Even to gesture with the left hand in a Semitic society would bring shame on the one doing so.  The only conceivable blow would be the back of the right hand.  This is not a blow to injure, but to humiliate.  It was always a "one down" blow by a "superior" to an "inferior": husband to wife, parent to child, master to servant, Roman to Jew.  By turning the other cheek, the inferior is saying, "I refuse to be humiliated by you.  I am a human being, a child of God.  You can kill me, but my soul is out of your reach."  This reaction is light years from the passive acquiescence ascribed to Jesus all these centuries."

I agree with you.  Good tactic, poor strategy, especially if the intent is physical harm or death versus humiliation.   -Steve


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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That is because VERY few Christians know ANYthing about Jewish customs and life as it was back in those days - and the bottom line was: Jesus was a Jew, and followed Jewish customs...

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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When I read  posts like this, I get the same satiated  feeling after a superb five course meal " Including later sex."
Bravissimo to you Michael.
Ciro


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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Can't say that I loved the article as much as Ciro, but I do have this to offer---

Isn't there a passage in The Art of Fiction where Ayn Rand mentions a "beautiful example of turning the other cheek", or something like that?  I think she's talking about Les Miserables, perhaps the scene where Jean Valjean has been caught stealing the minister's silverware, and the minister tells the police officer, "Oh, I gave that to him, but he forgot to take these candles with him," then gives him some valuable candles.  Or something, don't remember the details.

If I had the book with me now, I'd try to find it.


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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This essay is an excellent reminder of a principle I'm still learning. Being a rabid atheist -- and mocking the idea of God while dismissing the theist as an illegitimate boob -- is a poor way to be a proponent of a secular, rational philosophy. I love my mother. She believes in God, or some variation on the theme. I can't imagine saying to her, "Mom, when are you going to get your head out of your ass and wake up to reality?" It's easy to forget, but most people on the planet are nice and willing to listen and learn. The Christian down the street can be your friend. The girl I'm dating is Catholic, and it's mostly not an issue. It's when such mystical beliefs get grounded in public policy -- abortion, intelligent design, school prayer, "faith-based" initiatives -- that we should really go to war.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks everybody, so far (more later).

I want to address the post from Daniel, which was very well remembered.

Here is the passage, from "Theme and Plot," The Art of Fiction:
Take Les Miserables. The hero steals a loaf of bread and is sent to prison. He cannot stand it, so he tries to escape; he draws a longer sentence. When he is finally released, he is an outcast. He comes to a town where nobody will lodge him or serve him dinner. Then he sees a house with an open door—the house of the local bishop. This very well-drawn, altruistic bishop invites him to stay, serves him a meal, and treats him with all the deference due an honored guest. The ex-convict notices the bishop's only valuable possessions: real silverware and two silver candelabra on the mantelpiece. In the middle of the night, the trusted ex-convict steals the silverware and escapes.

Given the man's enormously embittered state, the reader can understand why he makes this choice. It is an evil choice, but it proceeds from the previous events of the story.

Then he is caught and brought back to the bishop by local policemen who recognize the silverware. They tell the bishop: "We've caught this ex-convict and he says that you gave him the silverware." And the bishop says: "Yes, of course I gave it to him. But, my friend, why did you forget to take the candelabra, which I also gave you?" The police depart, and the bishop tells the ex-convict: "Take this silver. With it I am buying your soul from the devil and giving it to God."

That
is a scene. It is a beautifully dramatic example of turning the other cheek.

The bishop believes that his action will have a good effect; and the hero does reform, though not immediately. But everything he does is always conditioned by what he concluded (or misconcluded) from a previous event; and the actions of the police thereafter are always conditioned by their suspicion of him. The events are determined by the goals that the characters want to accomplish, and each event is necessitated by the preceding one—necessitated not deterministically, but
logically. "If A, then B logically had to follow."
Notice however that this example of turning the other cheek is in respect to religion, and this principle is used as a means to saving a soul or reforming evil ways. Thus, in this instance, the intention is as a strategy, but the use of the turning the other cheek principle works more like a tactic.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 10/23, 1:22pm)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 10/23, 1:24pm)


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 3:03pmSanction this postReply
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Michael-
An excellent and well written article, and one which I'm proud to see up at SOLO.


Post 11

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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"putting a religious moral principal in another perspective... is an excellent way to tie Objectivism to the world of a religious person without turning him off. It is very difficult for a person to think he has been a fool for years and to overthrow all he has believed to be the good."

Well, that's true. The trick, however, is to be able to spot the perpetual addict who's always looking for the next fix. A lot of people have got a deep itch that drives them nuts. They just can't scratch it. So they look for something. Religion is the case in point but it might just as well be alcohol, or drugs, or sex, or debt-spending, or violence, environmentalism, etc.

We may not like to think that our Objectivism can be used as another just another cookie-cutter way to quiet their demons, but I'm sure it can be and has been. Eventually the disillusioned have to be stood up and told, honestly, that's is just dumb luck that their religion's tenets happen to agree with Objectivist principles.

Hopefully they can work that out before they start believing that Objectivism is just another convenient fix to numb that nasty little itch.

Ross



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Post 12

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

What a great article.  I'm so proud.  Every article seems to get better and better and I clicked "!"  so it is my favorite now.  This article demonstrates a deep understanding of applying the philosophy of Objectivism out there in the real world and gives a refreshing and positive new perspective. 

All I can say is "WOW."

The storytelling is engaging and I loved the story of the bully.  When I first heard the story in Florida, I knew it would be great in an article and I really like how it all came together.  You should really be writing professionally.  It is really awesome that this went up so quickly and without much revision to the first draft you read to me on the phone last night.  Your writing voice is so natural and freeflowing I almost forgot you were reading this to me rather than just talking.

Like Adam said, "Fucking brilliant!"

purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrs and bonks,

Kat




*purr alert*   
I love you.


(P.S.  I showed the article to Tina and she loved it!!    She thinks you are pretty awesome, too.)

(Edited by katdaddy on 10/23, 4:58pm)


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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Can't say that I loved the article as much as Ciro, but I do have this to offer---

Daniel maybe it has a lot to do with the respect I have for this great person.
Ciro.


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Post 14

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
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Very very good Michael. On several levels I believe youve cut to some essentail focus points.I have more comments but will post them later when this hurricane passes by.

John


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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John-
Would Ayn Rand have let something like a hurricane stop her?

All my best to you if you are in the path: ride it out and we'll see you on the other side.


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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Same problem. Gotta stop for the storm.

Thanks all you wonderful people. I will write more to all of you later.

Kisses to Kitten.

Michael


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
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While we are sharing Christian memories... this one was pretty recent, it wasn't me haha, but it was pretty damn funny.

There was this wedding that a close friend of mine was invited to. She asked me to go with her or something, well anyways I ended up going to the wedding. Here is the setting:

My close friend, a Christian fundamentalist. The bride and groom: Christian fundamentalists. The church: full of Christian fundamentalists.

During the wedding ceremony and before the vows, the bride and groom told speeches. The bride told some kind of nice Christian thing that you would expect from a perfect Christian woman, blah blah blah blah blah. The groom on the other hand: he went into long detail of his problem with pornography, that until not too recently he was facing the "problem", quitting, but then always coming back to porn and masturbation. He continued talking about masterbation in this manner for about 5 minutes! He ended up saying something like "She brought me closer to God and I haven't masturbated since." Thee end. Hmm... I can't remember whether they video taped it.

LOLOLOLOL. : )

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:20pmSanction this postReply
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Great essay, Michael.

That distinction between tactic (contextual) and strategy (normative) was brilliant. Also, the focus of a successful dealing with real people on earth -- was brilliant. Folks like me need folks like you -- to show me, not what is completely right and good (that I can manage), but how to go about being completely right and good, in a less than completely right and good society.

My tires have inherent traction now, and now you've helped me find the road -- in order to apply that traction productively.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 10/23, 10:23pm)


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Post 19

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the article. I'm concluding much the same; that its best not to forgive as they teach you in church, "as if the offense never happened", but for yourself, refusing to obsess and hurt yourself getting even. Often later, opportunities for retribution by actions not taken are more powerful.

As a child I had a couple similar experiences. One was getting chased home by the usual bullies, telling them God would deal with them, and getting laughed at. My strategy of running to tire my pursuers worked, even if God didn't.

The other case was a social dilemma. Some girl in gym class decided she didn't like me, so she started insulting and punching me. What to do? Hitting a girl is taboo. Getting punched out is humiliating. I let her get three hits, the hit her back.

Then the social trial came. Some said you can't punch a girl, others said waste the bitch. I felt truly conflicted, ashamed, as well as pissed. Its a number of events like that, that disillusioned my subjectivist nature and made me the rabid individualist I'm now.

Stephen,

I started a translation dictionary for atheism and theism. For instance, theists believe in a Holy Spirit. Atheists, a sense-of-life. Theists "get an unction". Atheists are merely inspired. Theists "get fed" at church. Atheists "get their battery charged" with art, music and concerts. et. I've got a page or so, if I can find it.

Scott

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