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Post 20

Monday, October 24, 2005 - 6:28amSanction this postReply
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Scott wrote:
I started a translation dictionary for atheism and theism. For instance, theists believe in a Holy Spirit. Atheists, a sense-of-life. Theists "get an unction". Atheists are merely inspired. Theists "get fed" at church. Atheists "get their battery charged" with art, music and concerts. et. I've got a page or so, if I can find it.
This sounds like something SOLO could use as a permanent reference page for its War Room.


Post 21

Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

============
This sounds like something SOLO could use as a permanent reference page for its War Room.
============

Right!

Ed


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Post 22

Monday, October 24, 2005 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I just got around to reading this. Very very good, thank you for writing it!

I'm also struck by Jamie's post. It reminds me of a lot of what Rich Engle says often on threads about religion and faith. I'm even reminded of some posts by Bill Tingley (Citizen Rat) talking about the "village atheist." I'm sure I've made a few fanatical atheists posts in the past, but have quickly learned better. I know a lot of religious people, and I have no problem with their religion. Unless they try and force the issue I'm usually silent, or simply note that I disagree with some disagreeable principle. Setting up an advesarial relationship from the get-go by use of attack phrases is almost always a bad idea if you're trying to convince someone or present ideas contrary to their's

Thanks again Michael. I hope this discussion continues.

Ethan


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Post 23

Monday, October 24, 2005 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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MSK-

Well, you can guess how essential I found that piece to be. :) Elegantly put, and I am convinced it will serve to strengthen understanding and tolerance all around.

I've been taking an informal poll around my UU community, asking them about Ayn Rand. It's amazing how many of them read AS and TF. Sure, I run into people who are convinced they are socialists (hah...they're definitely not, I know where they live and what they do for a living), but by and large, the reaction is of the "oh yes, absolutely" variety. When I joined the UU church, I took a class called "Roots," which is necessary if you want to really be sure that it is right for you. It was interesting, because of course my Objectivist background came out very quickly. The main reaction was one of admiration- because I valued reason so highly. If you talk about faith with these people, one of the main things you talk about is faith in reason. Now, you could say that reason does not require faith, but the word is used differently than the "faith in the unknown" fashion that gets discussed so often.

Turning the other cheek...

My preference, of course, is to put myself in a place where they never get to the first cheek, but what can we do, even with great vigilance?  I kind of look at it this way: you got the first one, and I'm turning the other one to you, inquiringly, "testingly," but you'd best be careful- it will be much more difficult this time around. I can afford that- can you? What are you really about? How important is this action to you? Perhaps you make an error...

Ever notice pictures of Bruce Lee, when he would fight with his lead hand dropped? There is a reason for that other than looking cool- it is to draw an attack. With attacks come openings. Things reveal themselves.

My point is that the greatest goal in dealing with aggression is to neutralize it. As in, avoiding causing as much reciprocal damage as is reasonable. This is much more difficult than an over-response.

Thanks MSK!


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Post 24

Monday, October 24, 2005 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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Reading this article was good for me. I've always been too reactionary... I think. (Though I've never been in a fight.)

Post 25

Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Solo has a "war room"? I have something humorous for it :-D

I couldn't find my atheist-theist translation document. One one of my many, hardly-searchable disks. It'll turn up.

But I did find an excerpt I've edited from a "Christian Testimony" I mailed, several years ago, to 3 churches I had attended and become disaffected with. I talked with one deacon, that just didn't get it. Another wrote me back saying he was sorry they had offended. The third didn't bother.

Looking back, I've always been and felt different if not alienated. I (my family) should have expect "Lord of the Flies" to happen in a government school. But playing favorites in church, along with general sermons that blame you for your feelings and manipulate with shame and guilt, while promising you Jesus loves you, was too much!

Re-reading what I wrote, I find myself wondering why I was defending Christians. Probably because most were traditional, naive, not-knowing-better *children*-of-"God".

I'll post it under General topics as "My Favorite Christian Admonishments". LOL!

Scott

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Post 26

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 2:32amSanction this postReply
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.
I too enjoyed your article.  You provided a forthright explanation of a portion of your moral development.  I can especially relate to your childhood struggle to adhere to principles and your disillusionment when God himself let you down.  I had somewhat similar experiences.

My next point is nearly a cliché, but I believe that many people in this culture turn to religion in an effort to some purpose, some moral values and some spiritual sense of life.  God rarely lives up to his billing, and when disillusioned the religious turn to greater mysticism (He works in mysterious ways), become hypocrites, or if they are more honest with themselves, they become atheists. 

One of the truly great accomplishments of Rand was reclaiming spirituality for Objectivism.  

I also agree that there are some situations in which turning the other cheek could be, and has been, an effective tactic.  However, it fails as a moral rule, for the reasons that Rand stated and you quoted.

Your article met with such nearly unanimous acclaim by so many thoughtful individuals that I feel a bit like a party pooper to assert any disagreement.  However, at risk of losing my immortal soul, I go on.
 
 I disagree that Roark was turning the other cheek, in the least.  Roark mounted the only defense his integrity would allow. 
 

            Roark got up and walked to the bench, the brown envelope in hand.  He took out of the envelope ten photographs of the Stoddard Temple and laid them on the judge’s desk. He said, “The defense rests.” 
It was the same brown envelope he had when the trial began; the only thing on his desk.  Roark mounted the only rational defense he could that was consistent with his morality.  Roark did not turn the other cheek.  In fact the defense was a perfect defense for anyone of principle.  The defense failed because of the immorality of the judge and the witnesses.  However, it was a defense, and the only moral defense he could offer. 
Roark could have probably won the trial if he cross-examined Keating and Dominique.  However, he refused to accept their standards or their immorality.  We, the reader, knew that the photos were the perfect defense.  The proffered defense lost for the same reason most people would not hire Roark as their architect.  Roark could present no other defense for the same reason he couldn’t design a structure in any manner but his own.  Roark knew he would probably lose for the very same reason he knew he was usually turned down by nearly every committee and most individuals.  His refusal to change was defiance, not the turning of the other cheek.

In the John Gault example you cited, Gault is mocking them.  It was the most effective attack available to a person was tied to a table and nearly unconscious. 
 
I would not say that either Gault or Roark turned the other cheek, or used it as a tactic.  I think they were refusing to recognize the right of the aggressor and refusing to accept the morality of the aggressor. 
 
I hope you don’t think it is un-Christian of me to disagree.  ( I mean that to be a joke)

Christianity does two good things.  It recognizes the value of the individual; i.e., the soul.  It also recognizes that seeking a moral value system is essential.

Unfortunately Christianity also happens to mention that we are born in sin and can do nothing about it, are responsible for the evil of people that lived thousands of years ago, and can save ourselves only through some mystical process, while obeying numerous intrinsic rules that make little sense. 

Some people blame Christianity for dualism, but I always thought that over 1000 years of burning people at the stake for minor dogmatic difference was a more immediate danger. 


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Post 27

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
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Steve wrote:
Unfortunately Christianity also happens to mention that we are born in sin and can do nothing about it


Not nothing; Christians should "crucify the flesh" and "be filled with the spirit". I leave it to you to do a Bible search for chapter and verses, there are numerous ones. Here is another paradox I presented to several clergy, regarding smoking in particular and sin in general:

'Walk in/be filled with the spirit, and you won't give in to the lusts of the flesh'.

'Put to death/ don't commit acts of the flesh, and you'll be filled with the spirit'.

No good answer. Again, I could search for the popular chapter and verses, perhaps I'll remember in a couple hours. Which comes first, chicken or egg? Practice both, give God (Holy Spirit) credit for your success, and blame failure on your flesh!

Oh, The Horror, the horror!

while obeying numerous intrinsic rules that make little sense.


I don't see it so much obeying rules - that's legalism, which evangelical protestants denounce. No, its believing the reasoning preached, applying the "explanatory style" (Seligman et al.).

Some people blame Christianity for dualism, but I always thought that over 1000 years of burning people at the stake for minor dogmatic difference was a more immediate danger.


Don't attribute state violence to minor dogmatic differences. Attribute minor dogmatic differences to disaffected factions. People make cults to rebel against tyranny, and the state religion which sanctions it. Or because some fanatic had a vivid dream. Its gang-warfare politics justifying itself with religion. Its the terror of Stalin and Hitler justified by religion.

Which came first - the "Mystics of Mind", or the "Mystics of Muscle"? The Mystic of Muscle. You can still see packs of wolves and apes practicing it. Its man that needs Mystics of Mind to keep the brain from interfering with the politicians muscle.

Scott

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Post 28

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
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I enjoyed your post, especially
People make cults to rebel against tyranny, and the state religion which sanctions it. Or because some fanatic had a vivid dream. Its gang-warfare politics justifying itself with religion. Its the terror of Stalin and Hitler justified by religion.

and
Its man that needs Mystics of Mind to keep the brain from interfering with the politicians muscle.
Even an atheist like Stalin used religion for political power.  History is always driven by philosophy, and religion has been a major force within that philosophy.  At least that is true within the context of the history that I am aware of. 

Even though I am an atheist, religion has had a powerful effect on me.------Otherwise I would not have been scared shitless the first time I saw the Exorcist


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Post 29

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 10:02amSanction this postReply
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MSK wrote:

I finally came to the conclusion that hypocrisy was the rule at that church, that whatever was going on over there was not what it appeared to be, and that whatever was really going on was something so nebulous that I didn’t know where to start.

In fact, hypocrisy is the rule in all of Christianity (and the other major world religions). Religious people who want to live on this Earth cannot live by an other-worldly philosophy. A good Christian should not be well fed -- he should be giving food to the needy. A good Christian should not be thinking of sex -- he should be focused on creating a child.  A good Christian should not pursue the joys of this world, like movies, amusement parks, a work of (non-religious) art -- he should be studying the bible, doing charitable works, and contemplating the Lord.  A good Christian should not be making more than a subsistence wage -- he should give away property, not amass it.

Rand described Objectivism as a philosophy for living on Earth. Religion is truly evil from its basic irrational premises that 

1. a fictitious character without identity created the world,
2. man belongs to god and must do as god says,
3. revelation is the ultimate means of acquiring truth,
4. altruism is man's duty,
5. happiness on Earth is not man's highest goal,

to its practical implementation: altruist ethics enforced in the political arena.

I drink to the day mankind wakes up and finds the courage to reject religion.


Post 30

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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I drink to the day when people learn that they cannot broadly categorize without innacuracies.

Post 31

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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And I drink to the day when persons stop deluding themselves that they're something which in fact they're not...

Post 32

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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And I drink to the day when we all stop throwing pot shots around. Damn it's fun sometimes though.

Post 33

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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My Galt! there's a lot of drinking going around!!! :-)

Post 34

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 2:04pmSanction this postReply
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And why not? :-)

Post 35

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 6:23pmSanction this postReply
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Marty,

I have always found myself in agreement with you and admire your robust style.  However, you've got this dead wrong:
Rand described Objectivism as a philosophy for living on Earth. Religion is truly evil from its basic irrational premises that 

1. a fictitious character without identity created the world,
2. man belongs to god and must do as god says,
3. revelation is the ultimate means of acquiring truth,
4. altruism is man's duty,
5. happiness on Earth is not man's highest goal,

to its practical implementation: altruist ethics enforced in the political arena.
Here's how I would've answered you as a Catholic in the bad ol' days:

1. Not true.  The creator is Yahweh who became incarnate in the form of Jesus Christ.
2. Not true.  Every man has free will to live his life as he chooses; the moral life will conform to his fully human nature.
3. Not exactly true.  Revelation is valid because it is uncontradicted by reality.
4. Not true.  No man has a claim to live at the expense of another.  Charity is a virtue, not a duty.
5. Absolutely false.  We are made to live on this Earth.  Gnosticism is a heresy.

I'm not trying to argue Christianity is hunky-dory, but it does no good to knock down a straw man.  I'll grant you that a lot of Christians don't understand their religion and import into it Marxian anti-concepts that are the bane of our modern society.  There are also people who like to play the martyr who would justify their altruism with Christianity, not understanding that Christian teaching is foursquare against any quest for martyrdom.  (What is does teach is to have the courage of your convictions in extremis, which is quite different.)

My point, Marty, is that if you want to polemicize against Christianity, you need to tackle its strongest arguments, not the hash many make of the religion.  However, I'm not sure why you'd want to go through the trouble.  How does it serve your self-interest to do so?

Andy


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Post 36

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 6:44pmSanction this postReply
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This is a very strange post Andy.  What are you trying to accomplish with it?
 
"1. Not true.  The creator is Yahweh who became incarnate in the form of Jesus Christ."
 
All this statement says is that a fictitous character (somehow) magically turned into a nonfictitous character.  If you can't identify the original character's attributes how can you clam that Jesus Christ is the same entity in the flesh?  Marty's statement holds up fine here.

"2. Not true.  Every man has free will to live his life as he chooses; the moral life will conform to his fully human nature."

The threat of hell and purgatory pretty much forces a believer to conform to god's commands if he wants to avoid ever lasting misery.  Marty is clearly correct again.

"3. Not exactly true.  Revelation is valid because it is uncontradicted by reality."

Oh YEAH???? Is this a real arguement that carries any weight or an empty assertion?  Marty's statement is true here as well.

"4. Not true.  No man has a claim to live at the expense of another.  Charity is a virtue, not a duty.

No, if you want to get into the kingdom of heaven it is your duty.  Don't try to change things around.

"5. Absolutely false.  We are made to live on this Earth.  Gnosticism is a heresy."

It is clear from Jesus's teachings that people are to live for something called the "kingdom of heaven".   If they want to make it there they need to give up all of their wealth to the poor and turn into cheek turning wusses. 
 
This might be what a catholic would say in response to Marty's assertions but that doesn't make any of them valid arguments nor does it change the ultimate implications of the church doctrines.   Marty's five assertions are 100% correct.
 
 - Jason
 


(Edited by Jason Quintana on 10/25, 6:55pm)


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Post 37

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Jason! Bonk

Post 38

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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I drink to Jasons post...and Marty's.

Post 39

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Jason - beat me to it...


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