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Post 20

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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Oh my, Jody - trying to outdo MSK?

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Post 21

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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My original post was a bit too harsh toward Heidi and I have decided to delete it.

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 11/05, 8:15pm)


Post 22

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
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Reisman's Capitalism
 
I've been on the verge of purchasing that one, is it money well spent?


Post 23

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:26pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew wrote: Michael Marotta, since government is nothing but power constrained by law, any choice it makes other than the choice to stay out of the way is likely to be a "power choice" instead of a "market choice". The only market choice available to the state is laissez-faire
.
That is a nice sentiment and one that I agree with.  However, I was thinking of state monopolies such as Ptolemaic Egypt.  The king owned farms and other enterprises.  Did they run them on "state" or "market" terms?  When the Romans took over, Egypt was owned by the emperor and not even the senate had perogative there.  The monetary system was internalized and closed (debased silver coinage that was hard to export).  So, was Egypt run as a "market" or as a "state" and to what extent in which contexts?

What about manor farming?  We find it woefully inefficient today, but it was an improvement over the older method of abandoning the land and moving on, which fueled 300 years of Gothic invasions.  The knights of the middle ages made market decisions about those lands.

Could the American government today make purely agoric decisions about its parks, schools, space program, etc., etc.?  The USPS pays its own way without subsidy and that suggests that the government could make agoric decisions apart from its primary interests in power.


Post 24

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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Yes I own it and I think it is a masterpiece Jody -- but take a look for yourself.  Read the first couple of chapters on Reisman's website -- www.capitalism.net.  He has the whole book there for free in pdf format.

 - Jason


Post 25

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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Jason wrote:   ... claims to be a student of Austrianism would have any respect for the opportunity cost doctrine.   ... opportunity cost's "sole contribution is obfuscation" p. 460).  ... Values are NOT subjective and it is a heirarchy of rational values that serve ...
You will not much argument from Objectivists over the main point.  Values are objective.  However, the subjectivity of values is an axiom of praxeology.  The axiom can be challenged, but the fact remains that this is true of Austrian economics as elucidated by von Mises. 

I have not read Riesman, so I have to ask why there is a praxeological problem with opportunity costs.  What little I know about cost accounting has taught me that everything has a cost, even opportunity.


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Post 26

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:49pmSanction this postReply
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Mike E. : "95 percent of the wars America has been involved in during the last, oh ... fifty years or so ... has been unjust, unnecessary, and basically evil.".
I'm sick to death of that crap. I'm afraid I have to go with Steve on this one."

Even the Dalai Lama as begun to admit that some wars are necessary, for crying out loud. (Ok, he's not strapping on a bazooka, but it's a step:)

Fri Nov 4,11:30 PM ET
SAN FRANCISCO, United States (AFP) - Waging war for the cause of freedom can be justified but not in the case of Tibet's dream of autonomy from China, the Dalai Lama told an audience at Stanford University.

The allied victory in World War II "saved Western civilization," and conflicts fought in Korea and Vietnam were honorable from a moral standpoint, the 14th Dalai Lama said in answer to questions.

But he ruled out armed struggle for Tibet's grievances with the Chinese government.

"In the case of Tibet versus China, violence is almost like suicide," the Dalai Lama said. "If violence, then bloodshed. Bloodshed means more casualties among the Chinese and, again, more hatred."


Asked about the US-led invasion of Iraq, he said it would take a few years before it becomes clear whether the US military action was the right course of action.

If handled improperly, the situation in Iraq could go from "today, one (Osama) bin Laden, next few years 10 bin Ladens, then 100 bin Ladens," the Dalai Lama said.



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Post 27

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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Mike Erikson,-

Know what you mean but I'm a charitable kinda guy and I don't see it that way. I've always thought that if I failed as a human being I may almost as well give my life to the army as jump off a bridge, and I'm not big on resorting to war but for the very last resort.

Anyway, Jody is right that Morris should be the first defender of her views. And with the good-spirited invitation from people who know how to do an oil change how could she be intimidated out of fronting up now?


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Post 28

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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TSI wrote: What was the name of that football player who was killed in Afghanistan?  ... My son ... chose to enlist in the Army instead.  Same situation with the son of a friend. ... My husband and father both volunteered for the military (Navy, WWII, and Marines, two tours in Vietnam, respectively). 
What you are saying is, "I do it, so it must be right.  Everyone whom I know feels the same way I do."

I daresay that a million young, idealistic (and I stress that in every sense) young men, filled with Kantian, Hegelian nonsense, volunteered for World War I in order that their homeland fatherland state would achieve its highest historical expression. 

Everyone whom I know understands that Mussolini was a socialist who felt that Italy had to fight in World War I for its national honor or whatever.  The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist. The national anthem was proposed by progressives who felt that Americans were too individualistic and needed the cohesion found in Europe.  In 1916, the dime acquired a fasces on its reverse.

Your son, your father, your husband are all probably swell guys.  If these honest heroes happened to vote for Democrats, would that validate that party's platform?

My uncles fought in World War II.  When they came home, they put away their uniforms and never joined the VFW.  We never flew flags on holidays.  My father was wounded in Korea.  When Viet Nam happened everyone whom I know was counseled by their fathers and uncles to stay out of it any way they could.  Everyone I knew was a patriot and a Republican.  In the previous generation, they wanted Bob Taft for president. Then, they were "Goldwater in '64." 

There are many reasons to join the military.  Most of them are visceral.

It is a pure example of "sanction of the victim."


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Post 29

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jody re Reisman's Capitalism:

"I've been on the verge of purchasing that one, is it money well spent?"

Mises' Socialism & Reisman's Capitalism should form the bookends of your economics library :-)

Jody, again:

"...along the lines of how in Rand's writing she demonstrated the Christian principal of "the meek shall inherit the earth." ;)"

Don't you mean "the meek shall inherit the earth while turning the other cheek after having passed their camels through the eye of a needle"?

Ross

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Post 30

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Rick,

Hear, hear!  Thank you for looking at the big picture.

As Heidi is a senior in college, and is currently working on finishing several long, difficult, and brilliant final papers, I will take this opportunity to defend her intellectual honor, as it were.  But this is not mere chivalry or husbandly prerogative on my part; I whole-heartedly agree with Heidi's economic case against the draft, and I believe it is as valid a defense of freedom as the ethical argument would be.

The first thing to note, beyond all the nitpicking and hurt feelings that have arisen from an obvious difference of opinion over the "War on Terror", is that the main thrust of the article, its actual point, is not about that war (or any war) at all!  Heidi uses her belief, her subjective value preference, as part of a compare/contrast example in making an economic argument.  She is not trying to make her case against the War.  If she were, the article's thesis would read "the War on Terror is wrong [doesn't make economic sense]", and she would follow that up with her reasons for that position.  But her gripe here is with the draft, so that is where her arguments aim.

Secondly, just because Heidi is making an economic argument against conscription does not mean she rejects or undermines the moral argument against it.  You see, Heidi is an economist, whereas I am a philosopher (yes, this does make for some interesting discussions at home).  So, while I think in terms of objective principles and the nature of the good life, she thinks in terms of personal subjective value scales and the axiom of human action.  Does this mean one of us thinks the "right way" and one the "wrong way"?  No!  My having an ethical argument against the draft in no way invalidates, supercedes, or makes unnecessary Heidi's praxeological argument against it, and vice-versa. 

I would argue, for instance, that coercing individuals into military service violates their natural right to determine their own lives; Heidi, by contrast, argues that, in accordance with the fact that people respond to incentives, a voluntary army will be more efficient and effective than a conscripted one.  There is nothing in the second position that contradicts anything in the first.  On the contrary, the two arguments, if anything, strengthen each other, and give one more ground to stand on in facing down draft supporters.

For those who feel uber-sensitive about the fact that someone holds a belief that differs from their own, well, Heidi is a strong woman who's not afraid to speak her mind.  If you disagree with something she says, make your case, but don't forget that your focus shouldn't be on minutiae of opinion, but on the thrust of her argument.

And for the record, Heidi's opposing the "War on Terror" (encompassing the PATRIOT Act, the Bureaucracy of Homeland Security, and the mission to send American boys to die for the Iraqi people's right to elect themselves a new Mullah) does not mean she supports terrorism, it does not make her anti-American, and it does not mean that she thinks the military is unnecessary or wrong.  On the contrary, Heidi is more passionately committed to freedom and the American way of life than anyone I have ever met, and I know for a fact that she does not take her liberty, and the protection thereof, for granted.  So there.


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Post 31

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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Steve Druckenmiller wrote: "Shame on you, Morris. Just remember next time who helps defend that freedom you find so damn valuable."
That is what makes the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act so galling, now, isn't it, as were the concentration camps in World War II?  I mean the camps that American citizens were put into.  You are going to have to go a ways to prove that this war, that war, or any war promoted anyone's freedom.

Wars entail the fullest possible range of philosophical errors.  We could argue politics and morality first, but, really, it comes down to epistemology and metaphysics. 

Every war validates the assumption that might makes right.

Every war says that the person with the better weapon has the better argument.

Every war destroys values, both the physical things of value that are created by human intelligence, and more basically, the personal values that define each of us as unique and important.


Post 32

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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way we solved the question of who should be sent overseas to fight in our (mindless, unnecessary, and wasteful) wars.
===
A family friend named Don recently decided to join the army. Everyone was shocked, but it actually makes sense. We all acknowledge that Don has—for many years—had a pathetic life.
===
He has an extremely low opportunity cost—he’s the perfect candidate for the army. Plus, he has this whole patriotism thing going on,
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I think that, by a conservative estimate, 95 percent of the wars America has been involved in during the last, oh ... fifty years or so ... has been unjust, unnecessary, and basically evil. I would feel more than crappy about myself if I were contributing to the “war effort.”
===
I think the War on Terror is wrong and I would actually pay to stop it
===
If I were offered, say, five million dollars for a year of service, my principles might start to get pretty shaky (luckily for my conscience, that won’t ever happen)
===
Luke- Exactly what the hell was her argument again?  I seem to have missed it with all the bashing of America and the articles outlook of our military men and women as neanderthals who have pathetic lives that the average academician frowns upon.  You're a philosophy major and you consider this article a logical and cohesive argument?!  As I alluded to before, my fiancee would fail this in her English 1102 class which focuses on argument.  This article is nothing more than a thinly-veiled picket sign.


Post 33

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Go you! Both for your post and for...well, you know.

Go Heidi, too! This was a lovely article from a lovely young woman.


Post 34

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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Michael Smith asked: "What should America do in response to an attack like 9/11?"

First of all, what is "America"?  If you would identify each of the 250 million people living in central north America with the government in Washington DC, then where do you draw the line, since, obviously "America" approves of the income tax, anti-trust legislation, banking laws, public education, etc., etc., etc.  Just because the government in Washington DC was attacked, does not mean that "America" was attacked.

Two: The attack of 9/11 targeted the WORLD TRADE CENTER as well as the Pentagon (and we assume the White House).  There is a lot of philosophy in that, but look at the market side of it.  None of those multinational corporations fired up their defensive forces to counterattack the terrorists?  It might be argued that the MNCs actually got the US government to do their fighting.  That raises some other issues.  For instance, what guides US foreign policy?  Is it the rational self-interest of American businesses?  Or is it something else? 

Three: Even if cleaning out the vipers nest in Afghanistan was appropriate, what does that have to do with Iraq?  Saddam Hussein proved himself to be an immediate threat to Saudi Arabia and to Iran.  Specifically, you have to remember that they call it SAUDi Arabia because it belongs to the SAUD family, just like calling your home SMITHia America.  So, this is pretty much a matter of American troops fighting for the Saud family.  (As conservative humorist P. J. O'Rourke had it: "What is the Saudi national anthem? Onward Christian Soldiers.") 

Four:  The attack of 9/11 was provoked by something more than a hatred for Western materialism.  So, like all wars, you have to follow a chain of antecedants.  In flying, we call it the "chain of error."  No one mistake brings you down.  Most aviation accidents could have been prevented at several points.  So, too, with much else in life  From my point of view, the entire mess in the Middle East comes down to settling the question of whether God's Chosen People should evict the Canaanites.  I have a hard time  caring about that.  I am more emotionally commited to getting the government of Ankara out of Asia Minor and getting the government of Rome out of Sicily -- but neither one of those is an important to me as earning an A in this class I am taking in Logic... or finding a screwdriver so that my wife can reinstall this board in her computer.  In other words, I mind my own business and I think that the world would be a better place if everyone else minded their own as well.





 


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Post 35

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Firstly, let it be said I didn't think of this as being particularly controversial.  I was under the impression that most Objectivists were anti-draft and thought you all would find this an amusing tangent, not a philosophical treatise to argue against.

And very, very, very importantly: This was NOT meant to be an anti-war article.  It was meant to be an anti-DRAFT article.  Okay, Lindsay?

I have every intention of staying away from the war debate. I realize this may seem wierd, but I view my opposition to the war as a personal, subjective preference.  I was very much using my opposition to the War on Terror as an example of preference, and comparing it to Don's preference for the War.  I might just as simply have said "Don prefers military life and I do not prefer it."  In retrospect perhaps I ought to have. 

I want to make it quite clear that I was not saying there is no valid moral argument against the draft.  I was saying there was an economic one, too.  Come on, guys, I'm an economics major, not a philosophy major...

John Enright: I realize that many who have apparently high opportunity cost join the military, such as former (and sadly, late) Cardinals safety Pat Tillman.  But the very fact that he did it sort of begs the question, doesn't it?  I would say that in Pat's case, he placed a very high value on patriotism (or whatever you choose to call it) and in his case he was not merely being paid whatever it is the marines pay their volunteers, he was being paid $X PLUS the good feeling of being patriotic.

Michael Marotta: You said "You are going to have to go a ways to prove that this war, that war, or any war promoted anyone's freedom."  Thank you.  I was definitely not expecting this to be a debate about the War on Terror, but that is a statement I strongly agree with. 

Jody: Believe it or not, I actually don't ignore SOLO on purpose.  I'm a senior in college.  I'm writing my thesis.  I have a house.  I have a two year old.  I'm not exactly swimming in time, here... 

Out of curiosity does anyone disagree with my actual ARGUMENT? Or are you all too obsessed with what might, potentially, be implied by what I said? 


Post 36

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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Also, for the record:

Christian Bale is an extremely talented actor.  Any objectivist who care for films should watch "Equilibrium," which he stars in next to Sean Bean (Boromir in LOTR).   I also highly reccommend "Batman Begins," for the hero fans among you. 

Christian Bale is one of a very few method actors around today.  He does his job and does it well.  I admire his devotion to his craft, and his willingness to take it all very, very seriously. 


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Post 37

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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Heidi, you said:

Or are you all too obsessed with what might, potentially, be implied by what I said? 

 

How perceptive :-)


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Post 38

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
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Jody

If you continue to confuse your "principles" with "principals" yourarticles won't get through either. :-)

Yours in Principle,
The Founder & Principal.

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Post 39

Saturday, November 5, 2005 - 8:57pmSanction this postReply
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If you continue to confuse your "principles" with "principals" yourarticles won't get through either. :-)
LOL...Maybe my next article should be about the effect of fermented grapes on ones spelling!  Speaking of drinkers of things fermented, did you notice you missed the space between 'your' and 'articles'? ;)  Besides, that's what we have Andrew for.


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