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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 5:12amSanction this postReply
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I couldn't agree more with your daughter and her amazing insight to this issue. Naturally, some of your clear thinking as rubbed off...the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

This seems so true to me.  I work for a senior level cop and his wife during the day.  He's no "bully," but enjoys doing drug raids more than any other of his enforcement duties.   

This has been a point of disagreement between us;  that drugs, prostitution, pan-handling, etc., are victimless crimes. If there are no "victims," how can there be a violation of rights, i.e. a "crime?"    He just chants "drugs cause crime, drugs cause crime," like a robot programmed to believe it.  Basically, keeping drugs illegal keeps police departments in business, and he knows it.  It's job security for them.

As a result of working for him, I come in contact with many of his co-workers, other cops and detectives, some of whom are just plain assholes, treating me and probably most others, as "subjects." 

Several months ago, 95% of our city officers participated in a "sick out" over proposed cuts to the police budget resulting in some layoffs of officers. It became clear to me that my boss and his cohorts just don't care about the people who pay their fat salaries to protect them.  Much respect has been lost for him over this.

He's a good boss, and I like working for him. I enjoy hearing the funny stories he tells about some of the crazy people he's forced to deal with, and I'm grateful he keeps the nastier stuff to himself. If he didn't, I don't know if I'd be able to stay. 


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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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The "don't tell me what your rights are, I'll tell you what your rights are" attitude is much too prevalent among police officers, most of whom have no more clue than the rest of the culture as to man's natural rights. The culture war continues.


Post 2

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with most of that, actually, but the fact is that you do not know what you are talking about.  You have a theoretical construct derived a priori.  To validate it, you invent reasonable sounding facts, that are only  anecdotes. The plural of anecdote is not data.  The lead article is easy to agree with, until you get beneath the surface.

I agree with the thrust: cops are bullies.  That is a general rule, nice as some might be sometimes. 

I agree with the assertion that the enforcement of victimless crimes causes corruption.

However, if you actually read any of the substantive literature, you would know that this has been going on for over 100 years.  Read here about the Lexow Commission of 1894-1895 which resulted in a tough new police commissioner, Theodore Roosevelt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexow_Committee These special investigatory commissions come and go with alarming regularity.

No housecleaning has ever proved permanent, not in New York City, not in New Orleans, not anywhere at any time.  This is not something that happens once a generation.  It is something that "happens" everytime someone looks to see if it is happening.  (Perhaps this is the David Hume Theory of police corruption.) 
NYC alone: 
1970; Knapp Commission; gambling shakedowns; "Serpico"
1986 "The Buddy Boys"
1990 Michael Dowd
 It is inherent in the nature of government police.

I agree that victimless crimes -- gambling, alcohol, etc. -- make matters much worse.  Consider this analogy.  We just saw a tragic loss of life in a boating accident on Lake George.  Of course, all of these people were old, many were infirm, many were in wheelchairs, and so on.  However, being knocked overboard on Lake George in October brings with it a certain metaphysical reality that is not mitigated by making everyone involved young and healthy.  So, too, with government police.  You can reduce the number of things that they worry about, but you cannot change the metaphysical reality of their jobs.  Of course, they are bullies.  They work for the government.

You err when you claim that private entities would have the same problems in law enforcement.  That is like claiming that if McDonald's instituted an "exit tax" on customers, then it would face the same problems that a public agency does in collecting taxes.  I think that is the fallacy of the stolen concept.  Maybe you can put it in a different category.  A personal enterprise is not a government. In other words, private security firms do not protect "rights."  I assure you.  We do not.  I don't care about your "natural right" to property or your "natural right to pursuit of happiness."  All I care about is that you pay me to protect your interests. 

Obviously, no one wants more trouble than they are getting paid to assume.  You tell me you need to protect your sweet little home with your nice kids and doting wife while you are at a college teaching philosophy and I am thinking of some lights, some alarms, some timers.  If you are holding back your on-going feud with my cousin Guido, well, that's another matter.  But "rights" have nothing to with it.

Goverments protect "rights" retroactively.  (If that can be done at all.)
Businesses protect interests proactively.  (This seems to work astonishingly well.)

Cops are bullies and there are a lot of cop wannabes in private security.  There are also people in business who are dishonest, stupid, and lazy.  However, in the private sector, their ability to do harm is limited.  You know this.  It is basic free market theory.  It is supported by a plethora of facts.  A government patroller's prime directive is to enforce the law.  A private patroller's prime directive is to avoid conflict.


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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, you type nonsense. Why don't you show us budgets from various police units. Look, they waste most all of it on "public service calls" and victimless "crimes". Answering public service calls is not the job of police, and instead can be provided by consensual means. Its a crime for police to enforce victimless "crimes".

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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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I love the fact that cops spend so much time and money on stings and setups of drug dealers and entrapment of prostitutes, but when it comes to stopping the initiation of force, they can't act until the crime is committed. Sick.

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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Joe:

"I love the fact that cops spend so much time and money on stings and setups of drug dealers and entrapment of prostitutes, but when it comes to stopping the initiation of force, they can't act until the crime is committed. Sick."

Joe, how can a crime exist before force has been initiated? or are we seeking a Minority Report here?

Michael, cops are *not* bullies if they enforcing *moral* laws, that is, laws that redress violations of individual rights. Tibor's point is that corrupt legislation leads to corrupt law enforcement. And it does.

Ross

Post 6

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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Ha...Ross, I knew someone would misinterpret it that way...
No, I'm saying that they will act before a crime, and in cases of entrapment actually contribute to the crime by enticement, yet when a person is being harassed or threatened, the standard answer becomes that they can't act until the threat is followed through. The irony is that they will intervene in "victimless crimes", crimes that are between consenting adults and should not be illegal in the first place...

Post 7

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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Sure, Joe, got it. That was just my monthly expression of pedantry :-)

And the convoluted rationale of prosecuting victimless crimes is particularly corrupt because the law is designed to mitigate the possible, unproven effects of indeterminate individual actions in unspecified contexts that are nobody else's business in the first place. Not only does that turn sane cops into bureaucratic automatons, it surely leads to frustration and then corruption.

Ross

Post 8

Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
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DMG: Michael, you type nonsense. Why don't you show us budgets from various police units. Look, they waste most all of it on "public service calls" and victimless "crimes". Answering public service calls is not the job of police, and instead can be provided by consensual means. Its a crime for police to enforce victimless "crimes".
FIRST
This has been a professional pursuit for me since June 2002.  I have a library of my own. I subscribe to trade journals.  I have a research file of book reviews that I created and maintain.  I have four books here now and I have cited them on SOLO recently.  They are library books.  That is a significant point.  These facts are widely available.

THE HALLCREST REPORTS were funded by the Department of Justice.
 
The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Sciences, Volume 498 July 1988 The Private Security Industry: Issues and Trends includes an article by Reason magazine founder, Robert Poole, Jr. on which police services can be privatized.  (See below.)

Introduction to Private Security by Hess and Wrobleski was published by West, the publisher of standard legal case books and texts.  This book is one of two or three excellent manuals for private security that I have found.  There are dozens of books that are not bad.  I have found a few that are awful.  I just added one to the file on Campus Security.  Since that is my current job, I was looking forward to something more than denunciations of campus protestors, but that is all that book offered.

So, I review a lot of literature.  But I am not going to engage in a full blown study of primary materials just to make a point to you.  If you doubt the facts, do your own study and get rich and become famous. The US Congress and many other people believe just what I have cited here: the number of privately employed officers surpassed publicly employed officers in the mid-1960s and by 1977 the revenues for private security exceeded the tax dollars spent on public police.  Right "now" (mid- to late-1990s) the ratios are about two-to-one: only 1/3 of the manpower and only 1/3 of the money is governmental.

SECOND

As you note, much of what public police do has little to do with protecting rights.  That is the main point of Poole's essay.  Much of what your city police do -- parking violations; traffic control for construction -- can be privatized.  We agree on that.

THIRD
However, it is also true that "public service calls" are exactly what a police force should be concerned with.  As I already pointed out, it is a fact that police detectives only solve 15% of the cases they are assigned.  The other 85% go to court because of information provided by people at the scene, neighbors, relatives.  So, those "public service calls" are the glue that binds the police to the community.  Yet, as you note, many police officers see them as a waste of time.  An agoric entity values public service calls as a measure of a fungible asset: good will. 

FOURTH

We agree that if the police were focused on retributive force -- arresting coercive people -- everyone would be better off.  I maintain that even this function is misunderstood and poorly defined. In fact, since it seems to be your bailiwick, you might want to start a thread about "rational police" in a "constitutional society."  I challenge you to do that because I suspect that you will find crimnology a tough nut to crack.  Some people are born preditors.  Others are criminals of opportunity.  Some can be corrected.  Some cannot.  Of those who can, different people respond to different treatment.  I serve on a citizen's advisory board for community corrections.  I think about this stuff all the time.  I have nothing in a bottle to sell.  If you want to try, good luck.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 11/17, 8:21am)


Post 9

Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 8:03amSanction this postReply
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Ross Elliott asserted:  Michael, cops are *not* bullies if they enforcing *moral* laws, that is, laws that redress violations of individual rights. Tibor's point is that corrupt legislation leads to corrupt law enforcement. And it does.
We agree on the last point.  See my initial reply.  The 1894 Lexow Commission was investigating gambling corruption.  That was the issue in front of the 1970 Knapp Commission that gave us the "Serpico" story.  The cops can take the money to look the other way because really -- really! -- no one is getting hurt here.  It's just gambling... prostitution... drugs...  The problem of course is that turning a blind eye to lawlessness becomes a bad habit.  New Orleans is easy to cite as a worst case with Antoinette Frank in 1995, and Len Davis in 1996.  Even as they are the worst, they are not alone.

Of all the major US cities, Minneapolis is one of the best with a low incidence of police corruption.  Still, it is public record that when a burglary was reported, the police would help themselves to whatever was left, and the business owner would inflate the claim for loss.  This was habitiual and procedural.  It only involved "a few" patrolmen and at least one lieutenant.  But it starts with a free coffee at Dunkin' Donuts.

It starts with being given free coffee and turns into requesting a free television set.

The problem is broad and deep.  It is inherent.  It is metaphysically unavoidable.  A badge and a gun are a license to kill.  What kind of people do you expect would apply to be paid for that opportunity?  Of course they are bullies.  Look up the definition in any dictionary.  This is a word that is easy to understand.  Bullies pick on people who are weaker. Regardless of what kinds of laws they enforce, the personality is the same.

And, yes, it is a broad generalization with many exceptions.  Different kinds of people go into law enforcement.  Even a bully can be a nice guy sometimes.  However, I stand on the generalization: you pay people to have a license to kill and you attract people who want the opportunity to push other people around.  If you do not understand that, then you do not understand police work from the policeman's point of view.  Police make people obey the law.  


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Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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Joe Maurone:  (Post 4) I love the fact that cops spend so much time and money on stings and setups of drug dealers and entrapment of prostitutes, but when it comes to stopping the initiation of force, they can't act until the crime is committed. Sick  (Post 6 follow up.)
In the class I am taking in Law Enforcement Ethics, we heard the tape made by the FBI of officer Len Davis hiring Paul Hardy to kill Kim Marie Groves for filing a complaint against him in a beating incident.  (See  (www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/1996/May96/202.cr.htm for the facts in the case.)  It was pretty clear to us what was coming down.  Admittedly, we knew the context.  But, also, the FBI did, too, since they had been tapping and taping Davis, which is why they were in on the call.  They heard the deal come down.  Yet, Kim Groves died.

  This was part of a television show (20/20, I think) on corruption and what was particularly galling is that there was another incident of New Orleans cops and FBI agents on a stake out and the FBI electronics picked up the NO police planning to kill the other agents and take the drugs.  So, the FBI closed the sting and a made a few arrests.  Why did they not wait for the other agents to get killed the way they waited for Kim Groves to take a bullet so they could make an arrest? 

You are right: it is sick.  And sickening. 

However, the universe is a rational place.  There is a solution to the problem.  Slapping a band-aid on the Constitution is not it.


Post 11

Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 9:21amSanction this postReply
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I work in East Cleveland, which is one of the tougher cities in the country, and I know a lot of the cops there. Adjoining EC is Cleveland's 6th district, which is pretty much the same, it's the wild west. One of my best and dearest friends (my bassist) is a cop over there, and I know a lot of those guys. In fact, they were just here visiting me this morning and yesterday. I get a lot of feedback about what they're up to. Yes, there are cowboys, no doubt, but most of the regular guys hate that, because it is a dangerous kind of mindset for a cop. The cops I know are very levelheaded. That's an essential quality to stay alive, and not kill people without reason.

Being a cop is a job, just like any other job in a lot of ways- you do your shift every day and come home. Inherently, being a cop is a very disciplined job.

I'm just making some comments because I don't know how many of you folks have close and/or day-to-day relationships with regular cops, but as for bullies and cowboys, my experience is that's the exception, not the rule.

rde


Post 12

Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Why do most police organizations consistently come out against legislation allowing concealed carry permits for citizens and most other gun control reform measures?   

Post 13

Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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I grew up in Cleveland on the near West Side. My first father-in-law went from corporal patrolman to captain of detectives in the time I knew him.  (He first met me on patrol when I was 10.  Dating and marrying his daughter came later.)  He never liked having to work the 6th precinct then, and I guess things have not changed.  My second father-in-law was a deputy sheriff in Grand Traverse county, Michigan.  His son, my brother-in-law, spent 17 years in the USAF Air Police.  In private security, we have a lot of retired cops, of course. 

1.  Off the job, cops are just people. So, you cannot judge them in uniform when they are out of uniform.
2.  Any good person can be corrupted by a corrupt organization. 
3.  Given the wrong information system, the wrong kind of feedback mechanism, no one can do a good job.
4.  Cop virtues are the moral standards of the warrior: courage, loyality, low self-esteem, etc.  So, our culture predisposes us (brainwashes us) into admiring their heroics.
5.  It is one thing to talk about what happened on the job. It is another to live it.  Most communication is non-verbal, so no story teller can tell the whole story.

Finally, Landon, you are in an exceptional situation -- statistically unusual -- to have police for friends.  Generally speaking, police work places severe pressures against outside friendships.  It is not just that conflicts of interest might arise, though there is that, but that rotating shifts takes a patrol officer out of most social circles. 

Like some kind of Heisenberg paradox, you will never see your friends working in their natural circumstance.


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Post 14

Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 9:18pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

"4. Cop virtues are the moral standards of the warrior: courage, loyality, low self-esteem, etc. So, our culture predisposes us (brainwashes us) into admiring their heroics."

Your bias is showing. Have you ever known a "warrior"? Could you give me your definition of a warrior? Do you think cops are warriors?

Post 15

Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 9:42pmSanction this postReply
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"Why do most police organizations consistently come out against legislation allowing concealed carry permits for citizens and most other gun control reform measures?"

Do they? At least in the most recent high-publicity case of San Francisco banning handguns, the SF Police Officers' Association opposed the ban:

http://www.sfpoa.org/Journal/articles/october_05_article4.htm?id=24653


Post 16

Friday, November 18, 2005 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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Mike Erickson, virtues do not have to be mutually exclusive.  I highly recommend Diedre McCloskey's essay on Bourgeois Virtues in which she contrasts the aristocrat (Achilles), the peasant (St. Francis), and the merchant (Ben Franklin).  You can find much more about this online, including, I believe, a Reason Online article.
_Aristocrat_            _Peasant_           _Bourgeois_
 pride of being      pride of service      pride of action
  honor                         duty                      integrity
  loyalty                     solidarity              trustworthiness
  courage                  fortitude               enterprise

Cop virtues are Aristocratic.  Integrity is important, of course. As I said, these are not exclusive.  However, for the cop that is expressed as Honor. 

I recommend also some of the writing of Jane Jacobs who as been cited here.

Jane Jacobs' Systems of Survival
Systems of Survival: Moral Foundations of Commerce and Politics moves outside of the city, studying the moral underpinnings of work.
... they fit two patterns of moral behaviour that were mutually exclusive. She calls these two patterns "Moral Syndrome A", or commercial moral syndrome and "Moral Syndrome B" or guardian moral syndrome. She claims that the commercial moral syndrome is applicable to business owners, scientists, farmers, and traders. Similarly, she claims that the guardian moral syndrome is applicable to government, charities, hunter-gatherers, and religious institutions. She also claims that these Moral Syndromes are fixed, and do not fluctuate over time.
It is important to stress that Jane Jacobs is providing a theory about the morality of work, and not all moral ideas. Moral ideas that are not included in her syndrome are applicable to both syndromes.
Jane Jacobs goes on to describe what happens when these two moral syndromes are mixed, showing the work underpinnings of the Mafia and communism, and what happens when New York Subway Police are paid bonuses here - reinterpreted slightly as a part of the larger analysis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs

Books in Review Systems of Survival
Copyright (c) 1997 First Things 38 (December 1993): 50-53.
Traders and Raiders
Systems of Survival: A Dialogue on the Moral Foundations of Commerce and Politics. By Jane Jacobs. Random House. 236 pp. $22.
Reviewed by Mary Ann Glendon
Jacobs makes a surprising claim—one that has been misunderstood by some reviewers. She contends that human beings have developed two and only two basic "systems of survival": a "commercial syndrome" and a "guardian syndrome." Each of these survival strategies has arisen and persisted, she argues, because it promotes material success in the way of life with which it is associated.
Like the other animals, we find and pick up what we can use, and appropriate territories. But unlike the other animals, we also trade and produce for trade. Because we possess these two radically different ways of dealing with our needs, we also have two radically different systems of morals and values—both systems valid and necessary.
The "commercial syndrome" has its principal home among peoples who trade or produce for trade (though it is not coextensive with, or limited to, the world of business). The linchpin of the commercial syndrome is honesty, for the very good reason that trading systems don’t work without a good deal of trust, even among strangers. Because traders’ prosperity depends on making reliable deals, they set great store by policies that tend to create or reinforce honesty and trust: respect contracts; come to voluntary agreements; shun force; be tolerant and courteous; collaborate easily with strangers. Because producers for trade thrive on improved products and methods they also value inventiveness, and attitudes that foster creativity, such as "dissent for the sake of the task."
"Guardians" are modern versions of the raiders, warriors, and hunters who once made their livings through sorties into unknown or hostile territories. Today’s guardians (usually more concerned with administering or protecting territories than acquiring them) are found in governmental ministries and bureaucracies, legislatures, the armed forces, the police, business cartels, intelligence agencies, and many religious organizations. Guardians prize such qualities as discipline, obedience, prowess, respect for tradition and hierarchy, show of strength, ostentation, largesse, and "deception for the sake of the task." The bedrock of guardian systems is loyalty. It not only promotes their common objectives, but it keeps them from preying on one another. They are wary of, even hostile to, trade, for the reason that loyalty and secrets of the group must not be for sale.
 http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9312/reviews/glendon.html



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Friday, November 18, 2005 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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This is begging a discussion about the warrior mentality.

Post 18

Friday, November 18, 2005 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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Yes, Michael, the 6th in Clevo is, if anything, worse than ever. Every day it gets crazier. We have a store over there right in the middle of it. Right across the street from there, (former) Mayor Jane Campbell built a football field for Collinwood High School. I think it was part of a last hurrah in her campaign, which she lost last week. They can't even have night games, of course. On opening day, a riot broke out in the middle of the street in the middle of the afternoon. The schools are a wreck, and our answer is to give them expensive football stadiums. Swell.

rde


Post 19

Friday, November 18, 2005 - 1:09pmSanction this postReply
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M.E.M.:

I don't find these class generalizations to be personally useful. Interesting, sort of, but they don't fit with how I have interacted with and understood the INDIVIDUALS I have met in my lifetime. A simpler explanation for the particular mix of traits that a person possesses would be their experience, intelligence and basic individual personalities they are born with.

Your classifications also don't explain why you include "low self esteem" as a "warrior" trait. Your "Aristocrat" classification includes the trait of "pride of being" which seems to contradict "low self esteem". I would also like your explanation of how our culture "brainwashes" us into admiring their heroics.

I have found you an interesting and valuable contributor with original insights. You are widely read and intelligent, with a very good memory. The one thing that comes up from time to time is your pacifism and seeming contempt for the people, who in my opinion, are the forces that insure our security, in our rights and in our property. I don't think you believe they are unnecessary, but at the same time you seem contemptuous of them. I'm referring of course to our police and armed services. You have a utopian view that in a perfect world these people would not be necessary. I believe that the world will never be perfect.

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