About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Post 20

Friday, November 18, 2005 - 3:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"I'm just making some comments because I don't know how many of you folks have close and/or day-to-day relationships with regular cops, but as for bullies and cowboys, my experience is that's the exception, not the rule."

I agree with that, Rich. The cops I talk to regularly can't stand them either. They make the whole department look bad, and that makes it harder for the decent cops to do a good job, which often calls for cooperation from regular folks.  It's tough to get cooperation out of someone who's suspicious of you.

Funny cop story from the boss recently:

Boss was eating dinner with his partner. Got a call about kids throwing rocks at people. They went to the location and an individual gave directions as to where the kids were that were throwing rocks. Kids were still there. Turned out to be little kids, oldest one about 10. All denied throwing rocks. Boss and partner told the kids to explain why they were throwing rocks.  Turns out the kids spied a prostitute giving a man oral pleasure behind a dumpster close to where the kids were playing. Boss and partner used great restraint to contain laughter and arrested prostitute, which the children pointed out. Customer was individual who complained about rocks being thrown at him, also arrested. Boss and partner sent kids home with "police" stickers, and the suggestion to call them instead of throwing rocks next time.

Another one:

Boss pulls over car that is all over the road, and blows a red light right in front of him.  The male driver is clearly intoxicated. Boss begins search of driver's person and asks if he has anything in his pockets that may hurt him. Male driver explains that he has nothing sharp on him, but is wearing a bra. Boss again used restraint against laughter.


Post 21

Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 10:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mike Erickson, I agree that how you "get along" with someone is probably the most important aspect of their personality. 

As I said, different kinds of people are drawn to the profession of law enforcement.  Statistically, even today, the people drawn to police work are those who want to make other people obey the rules. To say that you know a policeman who says that cowboys are bad for the department is to say that Germany allows its citizens more rights than does Mali.  It is the "ugly sister" syndrome, pointing to a worse case. 

Read TSI's stories in Post 20... and no one called her on them.  I might agree that getting a blow job behind a dumpster is a bit sleazy, but whose business is it?  I agree that in calling the police the john showed a lack of insight.  That might be funny, but the thrust of the story was simply puritan legalism.

The low self esteem of police officers is documented.  My textbook is Ethics in Crime and Justice by Joycelyn M. Pollack.  Statistically, police officers score "low self esteem" when tested.  That explains much of the corruption, excessive force, racism, sexism, etc.  Also, it correlates with a perhaps curious view among the police that they are "victims." To resolve this low self esteem with the aristocrat's "pride of being" I suggest culling the difference between what "most" people mean by pride and what Objectivists mean by the word.  Back in 1943, most people might have called Peter Keating "selfish."  For the warrior aristocrat who has pride, it is expressed in a manner different from that of the peasant or merchant.   

ME: "The one thing that comes up from time to time is your pacifism and seeming contempt for the people, who in my opinion, are the forces that insure our security, in our rights and in our property. I don't think you believe they are unnecessary..."

I do think them unnecessary.  There was a time when people could not imagine a society without a king. Then, tyranny was invented.  As you say, your opinion is different than mine.   If this is just a matter of opinion (chocolate versus vanilla) then there is not much at stake.  It may be that we are so different in our life experiences that no agreement is possible.


Post 22

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 4:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
MEM,

Grow up, will ya?

Make the case for "blow jobs in view of children.,"  then maybe I'll buy. I would hope such displays should always be a violation of rational law.  Is there even such a thing as "rational law" to you? I'm just wondering.

Granted, if prostitution were legal, which it's not in this or any part of Michigan, there wouldn't have been such an incident, but oral sex in public isn't a good indicator of how "free" a society is, not by a long shot.


Post 23

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Look, you uptight Puritan crone, read Herodotus: the Egyptians eat in private, but do their eliminations in public, whereas we Greeks are just the opposite.  You know, there are places where people hide food and screw out in the open.  Obviously, that would not be where you celebrate Thanksgiving, Prudence.


Post 24

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Not in a million fucking years, relativist dolt.

Geeze, Mike, it's true, you are nuts!


Post 25

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Do you two want to go over to the Romance forum?

//;-)

Michael


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 26

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael E Marotta,

"As I said, different kinds of people are drawn to the profession of law enforcement. Statistically, even today, the people drawn to police work are those who want to make other people obey the rules."

This supports Tibor's article quite nicely. I think the point Tibor was making was that instead of "protecting people against aggression", which would be the true police function our police departments and personnel are tasked to enforce a lot of intrusive "social engineering" laws that shouldn't exist in the first place. As a result of this they are hated and looked down upon by a significant portion of the population they are supposed to "protect". Thus the "low self esteem" you refer to seems to follow naturally. These police departments also would tend to attract "bullies" as Tibor referred to, and in my opinion NOT attract the "warrior" type of personality who would be attracted to "true" police work, "protecting people against aggression."

I suppose we can agree to disagree, and there really isn't much at stake, the world doesn't revolve around our particular "take" on things. As far as different life experiences, I think that our "personalities" have more to do with it, we think differently. I think that as objectivists we do not NEED to resign ourselves to having different opinions about something important however. There are facts and reason and premises that can be explored, also semantic differences (i.e. we don't have the same definition of "warrior"). All could be resolved with honesty and determination and checking of premises.

By the way, I don't think that "getting along with someone" is the most important part of someones personality, unless you mean with "getting along" with honest intelligent and forthright people who mind their own business and expect the same from me.

Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 27

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Smart-ass, Michael! 

No thanks. I have a problem with guys who think hamster behaviour in humans is a positive evolutionary move, and public urination is a signal of glorious freedom. 


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 28

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa,

Could be worse. You guys could sit down and eat a meal together...

(ducking...)

Michael


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 29

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 4:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Of course there shouldn't be blowjobs given on public streets... but only because there shouldn't be public streets.


Post 30

Monday, October 17, 2011 - 6:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Machan wrote:

My youngest daughter and I were driving about when she told me her theory about contemporary police officers. Her idea was that police departments in our time attract bullies, people who have always liked to flex their muscles and show everyone who is boss. She said, "Look what these people are required to do—hassle people who are doing no one any harm, just because they ... break some rule that's almost surely arbitrary."

I would include many school teachers in this category.

Post 31

Monday, October 17, 2011 - 6:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Lol @ post 20 oh the irony!

Post 32

Tuesday, October 18, 2011 - 7:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Whatever we do, we do imperfectly, and that is a given. If that was a reason to never do anything, then we would never do anything, because the only way we do anything is imperfectly. Including, acknowledge and fund and staff the Paradox of Violence--even as we rail at the need to acknowledge and fund and staff it.


We risk bulldozering over not only the truth but fellow human beings when we paint with really broad brushes, but, what is it that some believe when it comes to the nature of the police?

Is it:

a] The job has a -tendency- to draw a certain kind of mind set/world view to it, even as individuals vary.

-or-

b] The nature of the job is such that it -tends- to act like a mandrel (as in, tool of extrusion art) and force most folks into a certain mind set/worldview, even as individuals vary.

or some of both, and if some of both, then, for those with some experience looking at this issue, to what extent either?

Does the job make the cops what they tend to be, or do cops make the job what it tends to be?


Is there imperfect freedom without imperfect laws?

Are there imperfect laws without imperfect enforcement?

Is there imperfect enforcement without imperfect enforcers?

Are there imperfect enforcers without imperfect force?



Is there imperfect freedom without imperfect force?


If not, then the only question is, what can be done to make the imperfect use of force as perfect as possible.

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 33

Tuesday, October 18, 2011 - 7:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't think Machan's observation's answer those questions, just raises them; he is arguing both.

Maybe it doesn't matter how much of either, both contribute to the imperfection of supporting the Paradox of Violence.

Is his real lament that we support the Paradox of Violence at all?

Because, since we can only do so imperfectly, that we shouldn't even attempt it?

We definitely have a teetering balance in this nation, and we -tend- to lean away from an effective police state. But we are schizoid on this.

We for sure don't achieve clarity when we attempt pointless prohibitions. Alcohol, drugs, tobacco, vice, and firearms. The violence in those arenas largely comes exactly from our efforts to prohibit them. (When is the last time Anheuser Busch machine gunned down a competitor?)

We'd do much better focusing instead only on violence, period, as there would be far less of it to enforce, and cops would truly be warrior heros.

We've smeared the Paradox of Violence into the Paradox of Prohibition By Violence, fundamentally as an extension of a muscular religious campaign of intolerance of other's freedoms, left over from a hundred years ago.



Post 34

Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Prof. Machan's daughter was only repeating what she was raised to believe. The truth is somewhat more complicated.

Female police officers have fewer problems on the street than males. They also make more traffic stops and more arrests.

Police officers with higher education (associate's, bachelor's, and master's degrees) tend to have fewer problems on the street than those with only a high school education. Officers with more education make more arrests, also.

The typical application forms for city police run about 40 pages. In addition to a background investigation, candidates are screened for psychological factors that can reveal a tendency to violence, including social bullying. Yet, the problems get through the sieve. As Luke Setzer pointed out, this not unique to the police. I suggest that it might apply to accountants and Methodist ministers.

You can theorize all you want, but eventually, you need facts to test your claims.



Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.