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Post 20

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

OK, I can accept this. The publication of these "interesting" statistics appears to be mainly an issue of quality control. So is the publication of Thornton's piece. In view of what he has written elsewhere about his conception of the "common culture that immigrants must learn and accept to be Americans," that the government "must commit to teaching and reinforcing," his is not a voice that reasonable men would give a platform to.

In the world of ideas, quality control matters even more than in engineering. But TOC staffers are supposed to know that already. Or are they?


Post 21

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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Jamie:

Do you REALLY believe that North Africans and Muslims needed to borrow socialist ideas of being owed a living from the French?

Exactly HOW would a freer or more capitalistic nation automatically disabuse immigrants of their bad ideas?

I sense that you didn't like my post, but you really give no clear reasons WHY what I wrote is wrong.

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Post 22

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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This "sounding" stinks to hell of collectivist racism, symptomatic of an organization that welcomes people who call themselves "Objectivists" without being willing to give up their previous attachments to anti-objective ideologies that range from supernatural beliefs, to endorsement of forcibly keeping brown people out of the United States.
Ridiculous. The sounding you show is a bullet list of statistics that, I assume, are true. The only thing stinking is your ad hominem.


Post 23

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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"Do you REALLY believe that North Africans and Muslims needed to borrow socialist ideas of being owed a living from the French?"

No. The French society already supports their aims. The rioters are just enraged that they haven't gotten their share of the socialist pie yet.

"Exactly HOW would a freer or more capitalistic nation automatically disabuse immigrants of their bad ideas?"

It wouldn't. It would just make it impossible to make those "bad ideas" a matter of public policy. And a capitalist society would tend to attract the people who come here to live their dreams, not settle into the bosoms of a nanny state. A society doling out welfare, subsidize health care and "free" schooling will naturally tend to attract people who come here already feeling entitled, and not inclined to "blend in" to the culture around them.

Post 24

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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Jason:

"Scott DeSalvo's post was one of the worst bits of collectivist nonsense I've seen posted in this website in quite a while. "

Lol...Ok, but what do you ~really~ think about my post?

When the "cultural norms" you and Jamie sneer at are those like reverence for the individual, self-governance, an independant nature, self-reliance, and understanding that democracy and capitalism more likely lead to human happiness, then fucking-A right, I'm all in favor of them. Especially when they replace mysticism, tribalism, a belief that murdering your rival is acceptable, a belief in a divine right of a leader, a belief that what I earn is yours for the taking. All those charming things you see with such regularity in many other nations.

The 'free market of ideas' concept is horseshit. Leaving in idea in the ether without a champion is a presciption for obscurity. Kids in schools today are being taught collectivst garbage, so that is what they come out of school believing. I'm just saying: teach them, and new Americans, something different.

The Founding Fathers were brilliant. They institutionalized their ideals, to the extent that they could. But the danger of participatory government is that the government is only as good as the ideas of its populace. We can see how this nation has declined by looking at the spread of collectivst ideas turned into law. Most Americans cannot even to begin to describe why due process exists, why freedom of the press is important, why church and state must be separated. Domestically, we have already lost.

What happens in a few years? Our children are already NOT learning American history, the fundamentals of the Constitution, the foundations of a free, productive life. Instead, they learn multiculuralism, that all ideas have merit, that there are many correct approaches to problems. So in this regard, the next generation of Americans will be strikingly similar to the immigrants bringing in their collectivst and/or mystical ideas. American schools are in the midst of devolution. Adult Americans do not understand what has kept this nation a (relative) bastion of freedom.

Fun things to look forward to. If you do not see it, then I doubt you understand the importance of ideas.

But you know what cracks me up about "Objectivists?" They cannot even conceive of a government performing a valid function, even though Ayn said that government do have legitimate functions. They cannot ABIDE the idea that "teaching" everyone priciples that freedom relies upon isn't collectivism--it is doing them a favor--doing everyone a favor. Doing something as a group is not collectivism. So I wonder whether I am an Objectivist, because I place no authority higher than my own mind. Not even Ayn's.

Post 25

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Jamie:

I wish I had a link to some articles I have read over the years. Essentially, the idea is that the French DID NOT WANT too much cultural mixing. They are fine with others becoming French, but did not want French culture mixed with incoming cultures. Whether the riots are because of this, or because other groups remained insular, I cannot say.

Post 26

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Jamie

"And a capitalist society would tend to attract the people who come here to live their dreams, not settle into the bosoms of a nanny state. A society doling out welfare, subsidize health care and "free" schooling will naturally tend to attract people who come here already feeling entitled, and not inclined to "blend in" to the culture around them."

Yep, I agree.

Post 27

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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Scott:
I agree with your agreement of my last post. :-)

As with all collectivist systems, French socialism is wary of outsiders. After all, it's "their" system, "their" money ... Outsiders can be seen as a threat to the perceived purity of their culture. That's why the French are such intolerant, pretentious assholes who have a particular grievance with American culture. Theirs is not a culture of assimilation or acceptance of outsiders. Theirs is a culture of the masses, particularly the French masses. Theirs is more inclined toward Nazi-style dictatorship. BTW, you bear an uncanny resemblance to my cousin, who is a helicopter pilot in Baghdad.

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Post 28

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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To: William Nevin
From: Ed Hudgins

Good points! While I'm on record in favorite of immigrants -- even though some don't take the time to find that out -- we do need to face some real issues since we cannot assume that immigrants will magically become freedom-lovers when the welfare state and culture dictate against it. By the way, I discussed EMTALA in this piece:
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/text/ehudgins_doctors-shrug.asp?navigator

Also the good news is that there are new Spanish translations of Atlas, Fountainhead, and The Virtue of Selfishness, thanks to some active libertarians and Objectivists in Latin America! So if we need Spanish language material, it's out there. Also there's also a very nice 2005 desk calender entitled Ano de la Libertad (Year of Liberty) subtitled "Honoring the centennial birth of Ayn Rand, a great thinker," with her picture on the front.

But ultimately, we need to fight the cultural battle for freedom in the United States, not only to help ensure that immigrants are enculturated into the values of rational individualism but also that native-born Americans are as well.


Post 29

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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Michael Marotta - you write: ...' Ed Hudgins wrote: "Note that he ignores all of the articles and op-eds we at TOC have published directly rejecting racist collectivism." Well, yes, of course, but do you have any articles calling for open borders? '...

Good question for TOC. Thanksgiving Day is coming up, so an OpEd making the case for open immigration would be most appropriate. Prove me wrong, gentlemen of TOC! I love surprises, at least good ones...



Post 30

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
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Jamie:

He really must be a good looking devil...

Seriously, though, best wishes to your cousin for a safe return, and soon.

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Post 31

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
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Scott --

Just to keep this discussion from moving off key let me ask you some questions so that I can understand where you are coming from.  I didn't understand your last post.

1.  Do you think that government should be the public keeper and teacher of ideology with the goal of creating a standardlized culture?

2.  "But what happens when new immigrant communities remain so insular that they do NOT assimilate into a culture of freedom, capitalism and democracy?"   

When you say this are you suggesting that people with seperate ethinic groups, languages and ideologies are bound to some kind of unspoken social contract to assimilate with the rest of the group even if they are not initiating force?  Does someone living in the United States who doesn't English pose any threat to you?

3.  "To the extent that you are going to allow an open borders policy, there ought to be loyalty oaths, mandatory English classes, and every other invasive and culture-breaking assimilation system possible in place."

Loyalty oaths to what?  To the nation?  To capitalism?  To the culture? What does "invasive and culture breaking assimilation system" mean?  Please expand on this.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 11/21, 4:29pm)


Post 32

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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Adam, as "TOC Objectivist" Bruce Thornton says, "Godless materialism menaces the fate of the west."

"Fortunately for us, there is still among our citizens a reservoir of faith and belief, particularly among the military. But how long can the "spiritual parasites," to use Unamuno's phase, the secularist and materialists continue to live off the spiritual certainty of their fellow citizens and spiritual capital amassed over the centuries and expressed in our political institutions?"


TOC's writers are talking about secularists being "spiritual parasites," and the USA is lucky to have citizens with a "reservoir of faith and belief." Are you surprised what they think of immigrants?

"TOC Obectivist" Bruce Thornton's plan for immigrants probably run like his plan for non-Christians.

"the most intolerant and bigoted of religions, Islam, is given a pass for its depredations, while the true religion of peace--the religion of martyrs, not warriors, the religion of self-sacrifice, not conquest-- is played up as a threat to the republic at home a danger to peace abroad. Western historical behavior that was a violation of Christianity' core values..."


Post 33

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn - of course, that is why I posted the link in my post 20 on this thread. I didn't have the stomach to actually quote the guy, but I'm glad somebody did...


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Post 34

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

My earlier post crossed with those of some of the guys from TOC.  I do think you are being unfairly hard on them.

As they pointed out, you are not questioning their numbers.  And even your original piece didn't claim that they drew any public policy prescriptions from their numbers.

They (meaning Roger Donway) chose to acknowledge and disseminate various facts of reality.  You may not happen to like those particular facts of reality.  Or you may simply wish that those facts of reality had been acknowledged and disseminated somewhere else.  But they are what they are: facts of reality.

Magazines like The New Individualist that seek to influence public opinion publish not only  finished arguments for a given position but occasionally also data that might be of interest to their readers.  This raw data helps us by telling us what kind of world we live in.  It is valuable for all the reasons that Rand cited in the parable of the astronaut in the title essay of Philosophy: Who Needs It?  On the new planet he needed the readings from his instruments to help decide his next course of action.

If, for example, America had a rate of total immigration that were low, and native-born citizens had a birthrate that were high, it might make some sense for Objectivists to remain complacent about their current efforts at outreach.  Just possibly, efforts like ARI's to sponsor essay contests in the public schools and to groom a small corps of philosophy Ph.D. candidates for eventual tenure-track positions at prestigious universities might be successful.  I personally would not feel very complacent even in that case.

But the reality is different.  The total rate of legal and illegal immigration is high.  The birth rate of the native-born middle class, or of the entire middle class, is not low by European standards.  But by historical American standards, or by the standards of impoverished 3rd world immigrants to this country, it is very low and is not far above the replacement level.  These facts together suggest that America tomorrow, as the multiculturalists are fond of telling us, will look very different from the America of the past.  It will be a bilingual nation, and any political effort aimed at substantial reform will have to be a bilingual effort.  Unless there is some educational reform right away to bring children who are not from traditional, Western, middle class backgrounds up to speed on the norms and shared knowledge of that class, then there will have to be a heroic effort in a decade or two to make Objectivism attractive to and understandable by Americans whose worldviews are lightyears removed from those of Rand's current or past audience.

Of course, numbers like these suggest opportunities as well as hazards.  If the Spanish-speaking population of the US is a sizeable minority that is growing rapidly, then attempting to influence it in an Objectivist direction now could have huge positive benefits down the road.  And if segments of it are not well acculturated to current norms, that also means that they have yet not been brainwashed with the multiculturalist, post-modernist, anti-reason bilge of our Left.  So maybe there is room for hope.  What would it take to reach the children of the Mexican-American working class with Objectivist literature that they would understand and enjoy?  Has anyone even thought about this yet?

Thus TOC's statistics did provide considerable food for thought.

Only a few cracker-barrel conservatives, labor union leftists, professional whiners attached to the urban underclass, and old-fashioned racists with brains genetically scrambled by generations of endogamous procreation still object to immigration by  "productive and successful people" with genuine skills.  Nevertheless, you were compelled to write:

We both know that many of the most productive and successful people, at least in the scientific and technological fields we work in, have brought with them, into our comprehensive human civilization, contributions from non-Christian, non-European, non-"Western" cultures. The same is often true in the arts - as you have shown, for the case of Indian film, here on Solo.
This is changing the subject.  The topic at hand is a large, unassimilated population of immigrants from just one culture, most of whom had sparse, if any, formal education in their native land. In recent decades, Mexican Americans have reversed their historic negative stereotype and are now known as being fanatically hardworking.  Many have served honorably and often heroically in our armed services.  They take excellent care of their children and their child mortality rates are therefore remarkably and commendably low.  And many, as I mentioned earlier, have risen into our middle and upper classes.  Many, in fact, come from families that have always belonged to our middle and/or upper classes.  These are not the ones complained about by anyone I know of who calls himself an Objectivist.

To absorb in a few decades a number of immigrants that is large compared to the native population and who are distributed over a large number of alien cultures from birthplaces that are scattered geographically over the four corners of the globe requires difficult transitions on the part of any society.  That is what our predominantly capitalist society of the late 19th and early 20th centuries essentially did, with difficulties that seemed painful then but which have faded with time.  That is what our mixed economy, with compulsory government schools, is doing now, with more or less success.

To absorb a large number of immigrants from just one other culture presents unique problems that absorbing immigrants from many cultures paradoxically does not.  For immigrants coming from many cultures, each finds himself alone or inhabiting a tiny ethnic island surrounded by a sea of natives.  There is nothing for him to do but sink or swim.  Therefore, the acculturation process is almost forced upon him.  The Hispanic population of the United States finds itself in a dramatically different position.  It is entirely possible in Houston and many other cities to find billboards advertising apartamentos, to wash one's clothes in a lavería, to get a quick bite to eat in a taquería, to purchase fresh mariscos (shellfish) in an ostionería, to buy a carro or camion in a lot where "su trabajo es su credito", to find a brand of cerveza (beer) sold with the advertisement that "los rudos y los técnicos están en acuerdo" (i.e. that the two philosophies of combat in Mexican profession wrestling are in agreement on it.)  In Chinese, Vietnamese, and Indian restaurants, one finds the sign in the lavatories "Todos empleados deben lavarse los manos a menos 30 segundos antes de trabajar" ("All employees must wash their hands at least 30 seconds before returning to work,") often with no English or Asian translation.  There are many parts of town where the vast majority of billboards, shop signs, and posted public notices are entirely in Spanish.

Signs in airports and bus stations throughout the country are of course bilingual, along with signs and ballots in polling places.  Students with Spanish surnames have often been forced, against their parents' expressed desires, to attend the "bilingual" curriculum in government schools, in which all classes are taught entirely in Spanish.  This is true even for children who are native speakers of English and who know no Spanish.  (The federal subsidy for a "bilingual" Spanish-speaking teacher is much higher than for an ordinary English-speaking one, so principals and guidance counselors conspire to raise their budgets by inflating the number of "Spanish-speaking" students.)

In short, it is possible for Spanish speakers to make their lives in the US without ever learning English.  As their number rises, the country risks becoming culturally bifurcated.  I believe there are many opportunities for this situation not to arise or, at least, not to grow worse.  And there are many benefits to having a bilingual culture.  But it will require some original thinking now and a lot of good will to make the best of it, not hot-headed cries of "racism" and "treason to Objectivism" where these last are not in evidence.

These immigrants are overwhelmingly Roman Catholic Christians.  The minority who are not Catholic are overwhelmingly Evangelical Protestant Christians.  Many are both very poor and poorly educated.  Some speak a Mexican Indian language natively, Spanish poorly, and English not at all.  I fully recognize that you have a special soft spot in your heart for Christians, and that the thought of millions of Catholics and Evangelicals crossing our southern border to settle down in barrios and raise big families therefore fills your big, benevolent soul with a warm glow.  But you will have to admit that many of these folks are probably a long way intellectually from becoming Objectivists.  Hence all the interest in what influence they will eventually have on the country.

-Bill


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Post 35

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 6:47pmSanction this postReply
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Jason:

1. I think that Rand would have agreed that defining and administering citizenship is a proper role of a limited government. I might be wrong, but I vaguely remember her writing that something along the lines of doing so is one of the very limited roles of government.

And yes, if you are going to have a government administering citizenship and determining citizenship, and outlining the requirements for citizenship, then I want policies in place which encourage interaction with and assimilation by new Americans. Make them take the step of learning the dominant language, and taking a loyalty pledge. I don't know how you want me to expand this.

2. Do French citizens think that immigrants and children of immigrants raised in insular communities initiated force against them when they burnt cars and vanadalized building?

Ok, it isnt fair to answer a Q with a Q. Your question is interesting. I guess my answer is that to the extent that my country infringes more on my rights, that is an initiation of force. Its my position that that is what is happening now. The 'not assimilating' part doesn't bother me nearly so much as what comes after it, and what is allowed by it. Just like seeing someone buying a gun does not alarm me so, until it is pointed at me.

"Does someone living in the United States who doesn't English pose any threat to you?"

No, of course not, not per se.

3. We ought to do everything we can to combat bad thinking, whether it comes from the product of our schools, or whether it comes from the product of someone else's bad schools or complete lack of education.

So, let me ask you a few questions:

1. What, if any, is the role if ideas in the lives of, for example, an Objectivist, versus one of the 9/11 plane hijackers?

2. If the US were populated with 80% of its citizenry who were avowed, devote Communists, with elected officials in the same proportion, would the United States provide the same Constitutional protections it now affords its citizens?

3. If my Italian ancestors could have remained in an Italian neighborhood, have relied on the government to translate everything into Italian, provide government services in Italian, have their kids go to school taught in Italian, and were taught that any contact with other Americans was a grave sin that would be punished by severe beatings, would Irish-French-Italian Scott DeSalvo exist right now? Would Italians have fought well in WWII on the side of the US?

Post 36

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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I don't think TOC embraces racism, and I think it's odd to be posting now about an article that was published in the TOC magazine a year ago.

That said, I do think it's strange that Donway printed those statistics. They may indeed be facts, but all facts needn't appear in an Objectivist magazine (unless they're omitted from a specific context that requires them).

What possible reasons could there be for pointing out that Mexican immigrants, as a group, tend to be less educated and conversant in English than other immigrants? Why go there?

I can't think of a good answer from an Objectivist perspective. If someone else can, I'd like to hear it.



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Post 37

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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What a frivolous article.  Throwing out accusations of "racism" and "treason" didn't add profundity but rather eviscerated any credibility the author may have brought to the table.

Individual rights are principles.  They have to be applied in context, not as floating absolutes.  Free speech, for example, doesn't mean the freedom to call in bomb threats.  It is a glaring contradiction to promote open immigration in the context of today's world.  Mexican immigrants can come in to the country, get on welfare, get "free" healthcare, and get "free" schooling for their children who eventually get into college on Affirmative Action because of their politically favored racial identity.  Given this reality, unrestrained Mexican immigration is a serious threat to our rights.  Unrestrained Islamic immigration, particularly into Europe, is a threat to civilization itself.  Defending mass Islamic migration into non-Muslim countries in the name of freedom is defending freedom in name only and in theory only.  It is destroying freedom in practice.


Post 38

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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Scott:3. If my Italian ancestors could have remained in an Italian neighborhood, have relied on the government to translate everything into Italian, provide government services in Italian, have their kids go to school taught in Italian, and were taught that any contact with other Americans was a grave sin that would be punished by severe beatings, would Irish-French-Italian Scott DeSalvo exist right now? Would Italians have fought well in WWII on the side of the US?

A++

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Post 39

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Scott --

1. Of course ideas play a very important role.  More importantly though, if our aim is to promote an individualist society we cannot start out with state indoctrination.  Free market capitalism and limited government fosters an environment of responsibility and rational thought.   It promotes and rewards individual productive action.  Promoting a standard collective ideology is promoting collectivism and conformity which is in stark opposition to individualism. 

2. No, but this doesn't promote your argument.  It is the common protectionist scare tactic. 

3. This question is loaded with several faulty assumptions.  From what I have read the Italian immigrants were very seperate and insular when they first came to the U.S.  Of course now after so many generations this group is fully blended with U.S. culture.  After a generation or so the cultural lines are blured.  My father was a child of Mexican immigrants.  His father was drafted at the end of World War II and served in Japan after the war on the side of the U.S.  I personally don't have any concern or knowledge about Mexican or hispanic culture and neither does my father nor do any of my relatives.  Based upon my experiences this is a common thing.  It is no different for any other group of immigrants.  And even if it is the case for this or that group (and making statements about certain groups is always a flawed approach) their activities are none of your business unless people are commiting criminal acts and then only their acts are the proper concern of the state.

The recent French riots were a very French cultural reaction.  The most famous example was the situation in which white students in 1968 rioted in exactly the same fashion but to a much more serious extent.  Far from being a result of Islamic culture these types of riots are a repeat phenomenon in France.   It is not a result of the ideology of the immigrant population but instead of the ideology and methods they learned from their new country.  Their reaction was a typical French reaction to situations in which one group thinks it isn't getting its fair share of the hand outs. 


Here is the major crux of your argument and it holds with it a terrible flaw.

"3. We ought to do everything we can to combat bad thinking, whether it comes from the product of our schools, or whether it comes from the product of someone else's bad schools or complete lack of education."

You don't have a right to combat in any way other then with argumentation someone else's ideas.  I am against public schools for many reasons and one is because they can be used  (and in some cases are used) in just the way that you are describing.  State indoctrination in "correct thinking" is the chief method of collectivists of all shapes and sizes all the way back to Plato.   Communists and fascists used it to promote their agenda and modern conservatives (which you seem to be in sympathy with) would like to utilize the state to promote traditional "American values".   I have never heard of an Objectivst taking this position but I guess there is a first for everything. 

 - Jason


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