About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Post 20

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
How about "The Ed-ited Doctor Phil" Show...

Post 21

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa,

A TV quality video with tv quality audio would take about 2.5MB per minute. A half our show would be 75MB. At current internet connection prices, its about $1.00 for 1000MB, or $1 for 13 people to download the 30 minute show, or 7.5 cents per download (10 cents per download is probably more close to the actual price). To reduce the price, your could use a peer to peer downloading/uploading program such as bit-torrent, and your customers could take care of most of the cost. You could also reduce the visual or audio quality, but then the lack of detail will annoy your audience.

Post 22

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> How about "The Ed-ited Doctor Phil" Show...

How about the "Phil Asks Questions, Phil Answers Them, Then Phil Asks a New Question" Show?

> a TV quality video

TV quality video despite the video Ipod seems a year or so off, but downloadable radio or audio is not. To paraphrase the secretive hot tip in "The Graduate" from the inebriated businessman pulling aside a bemused Dustin Hoffman:

"I have one word for you young man, one word..
...PODCASTS!"

Post 23

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Sounds more like "The Phil- Pill Show"...
(Edited by robert malcom on 1/03, 8:14pm)


Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 24

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - 11:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Lance, I agree with a lot of what you say.  I think I agree with the spirit of it, but I have some reservations.  Certainly a lot of the ideas can be taken individually and can spread through the culture without explicit recognition that they're Objectivist.  Certainly a lot of the political ideas have done that.  Some of the ideas in esthetics may catch on that way.  Even in ethics, some of the virtues may spread.  But take the rational self-interest as being what's really moral.  While people may adopt a lot of the behaviors (productivity, integrity, etc.), there's a huge obstacle with them accepting that those are moral.  They may say "You should do that", but I don't think they'll pick up "It's moral to do that."

That kind of revolutionary change is going to be a tough one.  I can't imagine it being picked up in the same way those less fundamental ideas are.  This would require explicitly making a major choice.  They'd have to recognize that they're bucking the trend.

Hi Christy!  Nice post.  I like the idea of making a New Year's pledge to do something.  That's certainly the right idea.  Let's see who's willing to step up to the plate this month!

Ed, your post 3 is the only comment really dealing with my article.  Thank you, and it's nice that you understood.

Phil, I don't hide the fact that you manage to annoy me frequently.  Your post #5 is a good example.  It's typical Phil Coates.  Talking down to activists, implying they're blind (or is it blindfolded) to obvious ideas, suggesting you have all the answers, and of course accomplishing nothing.  You didn't even provide a single example of useful activist tips gleamed from history.  Time to step up to the plate, Phil.  You've been telling everyone for quite some time how all these Objectivist activists over the years have screwed up, and how they should all just listen to you.  Well, let's see you do something besides lecture others.  Talk is cheap.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 25

Wednesday, January 4, 2006 - 11:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would like to weigh in here about activism.

One aspect that was a coo for SoloHQ was that it was combined with The Free Radical. An article written for a hard copy magazine is not the same as for an article on the internet. Of course I can be wrong but personally speaking I see hard copy magazines as minor historic documents; and I believe the jury is still out on internet articles. I have the feeling that they are merely produced by amateurs at the drop of pressing their finger on the "send" button. Writing for hard copy is like sculpting in stone, it is not forgiving; so you better have exactly what you want to say checked, double-checked, and then checked by an copy editor. There is a reason why I have never written for a online article because it is in my character to create for more permanent forms; as it is in my character to paint images with the universal foundations that will support them to live in time. There is a good chance that others feel the same way. I believe that The Free Radical has a long history of experts in their fields contributing to its pages; consequently that added to the viability of the online forum.

A well-intentioned Objectivist writing opinions about a field that they not an expert in is not helpful to any activist movement, i.e. its like Sciabarra writing about art! (Though look at the huge contribution he has made in the field(s) that he is an expert in.) On the other hand having a group of highly intelligent or is that "ruthlessly" intelligent people can be great stimulus, fun, and encouragement for such brilliant young people as Adam Buker, who may become a great composer.

When we view history we only see the exceptional, the best of that culture...people can side with grass roots movements all they want but if there are no intelligent framers of their goals and objectives I am not sure they have any significance.

One thought that has been passed and I think is interesting, is the radio or television programs...they offer, perhaps, a great substitute for a hard magazine, capturing important documentation of important creators, philosophers, and thinkers. Regards to Duncan Scotts documentation series of the people that knew AR personally. Going back to Joe’s comment about having, I don’t remember the phrase, but having an significant body of work, that exists, to be accessed by, potentially, millions of people is money in the bank.

I would love to interview artists that I think are extremely gifted–get their insights into the very real innovations and passion that they imbue in their art. Accepting Objectivism has little or nothing to do with being a good artist and yet they are both very compatible.

I don’t know of Tibor would be interested in that as well, but with his finesse and knowledge of philosophy and political issues would be fascinating to hear him as an interviewer. I am thinking of "Actors Studio", I think that is the name, of the professor that interviews famous actors, but the brilliance is that he interviews them as actors, not as personalities, or advertisements, and they indulge him because of his knowledge.

I know Joe, and I apologize if anything I say here remotely whiffs of didacticism...but I think if an intellectual entrepreneur can wave a permanent form in front of very talented people they will bite, and bring with them a certain level of depth that either wins over people or at the least puts out the fire of moral righteousness of either the collectivists or nihilists.


Post 26

Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> Talk is cheap. [Joe]

Actually, talk is important.

I've had a great deal of experience with activism, and my purpose is to help people avoid pitfalls I've encountered beforehand. That in itself is activism. If you or others don't agree with my advice, then refute me. But to demonize criticism or the idea of advice *itself* (or to imply that you know my motives and psychology and they are social metaphysical: criticizing others to make myself look big, as your link called 'cheap' seems to imply) is unworthy of you.

Let me make my position clear for you and others in a nutshell: 1. I believe the Objectivist movement could be enormously successful and have a major impact on the culture. 2. It has made many mistakes in the past which have limited its spread. 3. Through having made or seen many of them myself and having been a very vigorous Objectivist activist over many more years than you have, I am in a position to point some of them out...and even if I'm wrong on a particular point, I usually give either arguments or illustrations and people can benefit from thinking them through. 4. If people don't listen to the critics who have experience, they will simply make the same mistakes all over again. 5. Whenever I see something wrong, I don't worry about whether Leonard Peikoff or David Kelley or Ed Hudgins or Lindsay Perigo..or Joe Rowlands...is going to resent me or have their feelings hurt: I point out what I see as the error.

I try to do it in a non-insulting way. And without a personal attack (on motives, character, or dedication to the philosophy).

Finally, "let's see you do something besides lecture others" - I'm working with Luke off-list on his project to build clubs. I worked with some TOC officers and board members in the recent past in preliminary discussions of a project I would like to see them undertake (and some of my other advice was complimented). Once I see a well-conceived project and find people treat my ideas and advice respectfully, I am likely to be willing to work with them.
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 1/05, 9:32am)


Post 27

Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> You didn't even provide a single example of useful activist tips gleamed from history. [Joe]

That's a fair criticism. It was a short post and I thought I had done that elsewhere, but maybe it was on OWL or Atlantis?

I can try to offer a few (I have MANY) in other posts, if you or others want? [since you seem quite hostile toward me personally and toward my thinking and approaches to activism I'm reluctant to do it as an article which would be turned down.]

Post 28

Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil,

I share some of your concern about disillusionment when activism is ineffective. However, I think it is important for young Objectivists to feel they can get out there and do something. Living an Objectivist life is a little like batting .300. Young Objectivists have to get up there and take their cuts. I think there is a side benefit to splintering. People aren't at each other's throats all the time and there are multiple avenues for people to reconnect. I think the Solopassion, Rebirth of Reason separation was a stroke of genius. Many people came back to Rebirth of Reason and some new folks showed up over at Solopassion.

Given the nature of the Objectivist market, I do think that Objectivists do need to think through positive exit strategies so that permanent things are created and promoted after a venture goes moribund. This is the same challenge that business faces . Lester Thurow had some interesting things to say about this in his book Fortune Favors the Bold. He suggests every company needs a chief knowledge officer CKO to make strategic decisions for a company at key points who is a separate person from the CEO running the company. It may be in many cases that the best way to maximize value is to end the venture. It may be that the venture needs drastic change. The failure in strategic decision-making has plagued both TOC and ARI at various stages of each organization's development.

However, I think young Objectivists need to see people who are enthusiastic, as you are in person. There is a balance between constructive criticism and killing initiative. People new to Objectivism need to bump around and stub their toes a bit and they will make mistakes and it may be painful to watch. People will listen to a degree, but ultimately they have to see for themselves.

Jim


Post 29

Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 1/05, 12:53pm)


Post 30

Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil:

 It was a short post and I thought I had done that elsewhere, but maybe it was on OWL or Atlantis?

I can try to offer a few (I have MANY) in other posts, if you or others want? [since you seem quite hostile toward me personally and toward my thinking and approaches to activism I'm reluctant to do it as an article which would be turned down.]
I'm certain you went into great detail on OWL, but it was some time ago.

I'm interested in hearing about your ideas on this again. As I recall, the criticisms were enlightening (I distinctly remember you writing about "writing," giving Ed Hudgens as an example of an influential writing style that actually gets published.)

I'm listening.

Teresa


Sanction: 49, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 49, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 49, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 49, No Sanction: 0
Post 31

Friday, January 6, 2006 - 12:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil, talk can be important, if it leads to action.  That seems to be our biggest difference.  You'd rather criticize activists for not doing things your way.

That might be fine if you had some reasonable criticism.  But mostly you've just been insulting.  My image of you is telling Lindsay Perigo over and over at SOLOC 4 how it's basically impossible to keep a magazine going for more than a year.  And over and over people reminding you that the Free Radical is over 10 years old.  You don't just predict gloom and doom, but you ignore any real accomplishments, at least if they contradicts your own beliefs in what is possible.  Instead of asking how he was able to do something you thought was impossible, you just ignored it, minimized it, and went on to talk about how it's a bad idea.

The same thing with this site.  When you first came to this site back when it was SoloHQ, you started off criticizing it and predicting inevitable doom.  Do you have any idea how we created that organization?  Do you know how we got our membership, our participants, many years of running daily articles, etc?  Do you know what we did to grow it?  Do you know how we encouraged so many people to write articles?  Do you know how we adapted overtime to meet new challenges and build on our strengths?  No, I don't think you do.  Because you came in and made several suggestions that would totally invalidate all of our strengths, and put us on a direct course for failure.  And if you had been around at the beginning, you would have said it was impossible.  The market was saturated.

See, you have a credibility problem.  Not just because your own attempts at activism have been failures, but because when someone does accomplish something big, you don't see it at all.  You suggested earlier in this thread that we learn from other activists who were successful, but when it comes to Objectivist activists, you don't bother.  Do you assume we got lucky or something?  It's really hard to take you seriously when you ignore things like 10 years of Free Radical.  You come off as an attention-seeker.  If changing the world was really your goal, you'd consider doing something about it instead of just insulting those who do.

Now your second post was just funny.  You won't write an article because I'm hostile towards your unwillingness to do anything?  I hope you can see the humor there.

Let me just explain something to you.  I'm an activist because I want to accomplish things.  I want to make big changes.  I encourage others to be activists.  I praise them publically and privately.  I create software packages to make it easier to be an activist.  I train people in the understanding of Objectivism so they can be better activists.  I'm serious about this.  I actually want to achieve.  I put a ton of energy and thought into how to do it, and into doing it.  I want results.  If someone is an activist, even if I don't really think much of their work, I respect them.  For those people willing to step up and work to make their world better, I salute them.  And when someone comes in and attacks them, belittles them, talks down to them, etc., I get angry. 

There are the creators, and there are the critics.  Even a critic at his best is nothing compared to the creators.  If you decide to join the ranks of the creators, I'll be happy to have you.  If you write an article in the role of a creator, I would be happy to print it.


Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 32

Friday, January 6, 2006 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> your own attempts at activism have been failures

Joe, I don't want to get into a lengthy one-upsmanship contest on your activism vs. mine, because it's not about who is the bigger 'expert' but about what are the best ideas. Bbut I'll just point out that some of the results of what I did in Southern California (to name only one place where I did successful activism) were that seven universities across three counties had lots of Objectivists organize there, they became bases for ARI and other Objectivist speakers and projects, leading to a national TV appearance (at least once) and a place for an economist to get a hearing and come to the attention of a newspaper and get op eds with wide circulation printed, articles in the Los Angeles Times and elsewhere....and several other things which took place in the real world, student magazines, etc., not merely inside the discussion boards of a website.

> you ignore any real accomplishments...you ignore things like 10 years of Free Radical

You are quite right that I don't consider The Free Radical a major success. One simple question: **How many paying subscribers does it have?** It's not about how many years you've been in existence, it's about how many people you've converted to Objectivism, how many non-Objectivists are waiting eagerly for the periodical, and whether or not you've been able in ten years to have a palpable impact beyond New Zealand. Ten years is a long time to struggle with a project. But in ten years Reason magazine and also Liberty grew by leaps and bounds.

Perhaps you weren't listening, but you misinterpret my criticism of Oist periodicals. It wasn't that they can't succeed, but that they need to be realistic about certain business, market, and capitalization considerations if they wish to expand.

I also don't consider Solo/ SP/ RoR a major success. So far. It can always change and I hope it does. But there have been over and over a big problem of factionalism and schisms and casting out or breaking with people. Barbara, Kilbourne, Jennifer, etc. There may be one or two thousand who have registered on a website, but that means very little. (I had a hundred and fifty people sign up for the Northern California Objectivist Club, we had even more at SCOA, the largest Oist club ever). It includes people who are never heard from again or are comatose. There are only a handful of 'regulars' who respond to posts or even polls which is a really passive form of participation. There are no notable impacts on the public outside of Objectivism or outside of a website like the ones I did in SoCal that I have seen...and I assume you and Linz would trumpet them when they occur.

You have built a great website. It's brilliantly designed and lively, as I made a long, detailed post praising you for. But it doesn't have much impact outside of preaching to the converted.

> I'm an activist because I want to accomplish things. I want to make big changes. I encourage others to be activists... I create software packages.... I train people...

These are all great and you deserve a lot of credit for this as a starting point. I don't know if I complimented you on this before, but you are excellent at writing clear, simple, non-jargony articles explaining and translating key Objectivist principles. But you are having problems getting people to build on it. And your writing needs wider circulation.

Phil
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 1/06, 12:54pm)


Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Post 33

Friday, January 6, 2006 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil sez:

There may be one or two thousand who have registered on a website, but that means nothing.

Phil, it means slightly more than nothing. Joe's success is in the work that he does. Whether it touches a zillion people or five his work is mighty successful because he gets to experience it. He can't control other people or "convert" anybody. He can only point in this or that direction and be a guide.

Joe,

"One is punished best for his virtues." - Nietzsche  


Post 34

Friday, January 6, 2006 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Lance, Joe's goal is to actually change the culture. It's mine as well. And, yes, leaders are responsible for their motivational and persuasive powers, for whether or not they get people to actually follow them...and how far.

Post 35

Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
How many paying subscribers does The Free Radical have? I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.

Sanction: 42, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 42, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 42, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 42, No Sanction: 0
Post 36

Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 1:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil, wow.  That was quite a series of posts.  I'm not sure how to even respond.  You just spent all your energy pissing on other people's accomplishments, and taking credit for the accomplishments of others.  Did that make you feel better about yourself?  Am I supposed to respect you now?

I could defend the accomplishments you seem so desperate to minimize.  I could point out the thousands of people Lindsay has converted to Objectivism, the millions he's influenced, the libertarian party he spawned, the number of activists and their projects (like Cresswell's blog), the effects on government officials there, SOLO, etc., etc.  I could point out for myself the large number of conversions, the huge number of people that have read Importance of Philosophy, the fact that professors and high school teachers across the country recommend it to their students, being quoted in a major TV show, a rock band who quotes me at the beginning of their concerts, etc., etc.  And that only scratches the surface.

But that's not really the issue, is it?  You said a magazine couldn't run longer than a year, because you yourself failed at it.  When I point out the FreeRadical, what happens?  You try to minimize it.  Oh, that's just a New Zealand magazine!  NZ doesn't count!  Oh...other magazines have done better!  Etc., etc.

The problem is, it shows you don't know what you're talking about.  Where you failed miserably at a venture, Lindsay has succeeded (and however you measure his success, he beat you hands down).  Where you weren't able to attract activist writers, Lindsay has been able to do it for years (often having to reject people because the issue is already too long).  Now, if activism were your goal, I would expect that you try to figure out how he managed to succeed despite your belief it couldn't be done.  What did you do wrong, and what did he do right?  But instead, you just write it off because it hasn't changed the world overnight.  That's just pathetic.

For SOLO (now RoR and SP), you've predicted failure from the start.  And if we had consulted you back then, you would have predicted failure before it started.  And once again, you're completely wrong.  Instead of trying to figure out how it was done, you rush to dismiss it as "nothing".

Consistently your advice is worthless.  But instead of seeing why your ideas stink, you spit on your superiors.  And you can't imagine why I don't respect you?

It's so easy to sit back and tell other people that their efforts aren't good enough.  You could say that about Ayn Rand or the Founding Fathers!  As long as you get to decide what's good enough, you can always criticize other people.  You can always point to something as a flaw.  It's the easiest thing to do in the world, Phil.  You're not special for doing it.  You're not important for doing it.  You're just a critic, trying to ride off of the achievements of others by insulting them.

This is why I will never take you seriously as an activist, or respect your opinions.  You find far more pleasure in trying to tear down the accomplishments of others than you do in trying to improve things.


Post 37

Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe, you have misstated my views from start to finish. I will confine my response here to only a handful of points - not your entire unbenevolent personal attack:

1. > You said a magazine couldn't run longer than a year [Joe]

Misstated or unbenevolently misinterpreted. I wouldn't say that for the simple reason that many magazines like The Objectivist, TIA, Full Context, and Objectivity have run longer than a year which I was quite aware of. If I said anything like that, I would have meant that many Oist projects have a short life and it's *hard* to last for many years because they have a relatively small base to draw from for paying subscribers. In fact I did say that in a post.

Hardly the same thing as saying no magazine can survive over a year, don't you think? (You can make anybody look stupid that way.)

2. > For SOLO (now RoR and SP), you've predicted failure from the start...you would have predicted failure before it started... you rush to dismiss it as "nothing".

In addition to the mind-reading part in the middle, you have misstated or overstated or grotesquely oversimplified what I said. Do you truly not get the difference between predicting something will fail and offering suggestions in many posts for its improvement?

Just simple logic here: why would I offer suggestions for its improvement, in many time consuming posts if I am convinced it will inevitably fail?

3. > you failed miserably... your ideas stink...you spit on your superiors...your advice is worthless... insulting...

Wow! Not overstating a bit??!! (I'm certainly glad we aren't descending to personal attack or overheated rhetoric--- or what you called in your post being "insulting".)

4. When I asked what are the hard subscriber numbers of The Free Radical, instead I get claims of success with "thousands" and "millions".

Let's test those numbers: the number of people who pay for the flagship publication will either prove or give the lie to how many have been "converted" or deeply influenced. Is this a secret number?

> I will never take you seriously as an activist, or respect your opinions.

It's a free country.


(Edited by Philip Coates
on 1/07, 4:42pm)


Post 38

Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Joe:You just spent all your energy pissing on other people's accomplishments

 lol,  Urinary incontinence , I knew it!

Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 39

Saturday, January 7, 2006 - 9:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil-
I normally enjoy your posts, but lately people need an umbrella around you.  In your last post, you still challenged Joe to prove your pessimism was incorrect by furnishing you with numbers.  At least Joe is doing something Phil, and even if it garners the attention of only one person out there, then that is one more person won over.  Or does it just boil down to the old adage that those who can do; those who can't try to teach.


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.