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Post 40

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:43pmSanction this postReply
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In a foot-note, Stephen wrote to me ...

=============

(Ed Thompson,

Long ago my deceased partner and I took in a young stray cat who evidently had not yet experienced mirrors. She investigated the evident fellow cat in the mirror, as you described. However, later in life, she no longer took any manifest notice of her image in mirrors. I don’t know whether this adaptation is contrary to what Rand asserted in the preceding paragraph.)

=============

 

Stephen, first of all, I am sorry to hear about your deceased partner.

 

Secondly, I think you've done quite a good job as a conduit of Roger's idea here. The subject matter is abstract and difficult to begin with. Some folks will need to see it in a few different sets of "lighting" in order to truly understand (I am one of those folks!).

 

Thirdly, I don't think that the adaptation you mention is "contrary to what Rand asserted in the preceding paragraph. ["To an animal, whatever strikes his awareness is an absolute that corresponds to reality—or rather, it is a distinction he is incapable of making: reality, to him, is whatever he senses or feels."]."

 

My take is that your cat, eventually, grew weary of an aspect of reality that had never made any difference to her well-being. Almost like a frustration. For example, when it came out, I had a very great interest in the Rubic's Cube. After an hour of fiddling with the thing to no avail, however, I lost all of my initial interest in every picking one up again.

 

Ed



Post 41

Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:30amSanction this postReply
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Roger,

Thanks for the response.  I'm not really sure you answered my question, although since I admitted to not understanding the "ontological objectivity", I could be wrong.

I got the part where Peikoff uses IOS trichotomy for perception, and Rand said no.  That's fine.  So he uses objectivity to describe the relational quality of perception.  I'm fine with that part too.  The trichotomy is useful for all the things you mentioned (value, truth, sense data, etc.).  But you conclude that the "where" of conscious phenomena is what the ontologically objective is all about.  I'm still not getting there.  I see that it's relational (I've read Kelley's book on perception). I see why objectivity is a good word for it.  I just don't quite see how epistemic and ontological objectivity are used.  Epistemic seems fine.  We're aware of the sense data.  It's relational.  But why discuss the sense data itself as ontologically objective?  If we have knowledge of a rock, does that make the rock ontologically objective?  Why isn't it simply intrinsic?

What purpose does it serve for us to identify that it is the focus of awareness?

Forgive me if it is mentioned in one of your other posts.  There's a lot there and it mostly seems to be unrelated to my own question, so I only scanned them.


Post 42

Monday, February 13, 2006 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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=====================
Peikoff’s now abandoned discussion of sense data as being objective (rather than intrinsic or subjective).
=====================

I think I (finally) get it. BECAUSE perception is always -- automatically! -- ABOUT (some attribute of) an object ... things, when perceived, are (ontologically) objective. Anything that impinges on conscious (from the OUTSIDE) is objective, and our awareness of said impingement is awareness about SOME REAL THING.

Okay, Roger notes that a, corrected, incorporation of the trichotomy within epistemology (instead of Peikoff dropping it) would advance Objectivist epistemology. But the proposed philosophical pitfall (an Objectivist-failure to champion direct perception) is not clear. Does the term: "ontological objectivity" carry the philosophical weight (ie. the crucial impact on epistemology) proposed by Roger? Counter-evidence to this notion  -- is found in OPAR (Sensory Qualities as Real, p 44) states ...

=====================
Since the objects we perceive have a nature independent of us, it must be possible to distinguish between form and object ...

... The task of identifying the nature of physical objects as they are apart from man's form of perception does not belong to philosophy, but to physics.

... Whatever such attributes turn out to be, however, they have no philosophic significance, neither in regard to metaphysics nor to epistemology.
=====================

Peikoff acknowledges the Primacy of Existence (existence independent of any consciousness) here. And when he uses "form" he means "object-as-perceived." But he says that a more complete knowledge of an object-as-it-is, is a science task -- not a philosophical task. Now Roger seems to want to refer to perceived objects (when they directly impinge on conscious) as ontologically objective, and thinks that -- if we don't refer to them as such -- then pitfalls will occur regarding the defense of perception's veridicality.

Peikoff, on the other hand, merely presumes (for the sake of THIS quote above -- he does argue for it, elsewhere) that perception is veridical, but that this veridicality is of a form, and not a more complete identification of the identity of the object of perception. He's saying that this complete identification is a task for science. He's saying, implicitly, that philosophy will be okay without defending the ontological objectivity of the things of which we are aware.

I'll stop there -- for questions, comments, or accusations.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 2/13, 12:29pm)


Post 43

Monday, February 13, 2006 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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One preemptive, post-script:
I'm taking objectivity to mean: unwarped (by the conscious agent).

I think (most?) everyone here agrees that we don't warp that which we perceive, and -- in this sense -- the percept itself is ontologically objective. The matter I mention above then, has to do with a difference between what's been perceived (the form) and what's really out there (the object). Peikoff's main line is that we are getting "the whole" (which explains things like "bent sticks under water" -- ie. perception of 2 identities -- water & stick -- not one).

The concept of "getting the whole" can be saved under the stick-in-water phenomenon (indeed, it's what explains this phenomenon!), but can the concept of "ontological objectivity" be saved under the stick-in-water phenomenon? Not if perception is identification.

And if conceptual awareness is required for perceptual identification (perceptual judgment), then it appears that ALL identification hinges on volitional consciousness. Though the medium of awareness (the form in which we sense things), is ontologically objective.

If consciousness is identification then, it appears that (for humans) it's also essentially volitional. But I admit I could be wrong about that ...

Ed
[ducks for cover, in case it starts "raining" tomatoes    ;-)]



Post 44

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 6:48amSanction this postReply
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Nah - put out big basket, collect, make  soup - a bisque maybe......;-)

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Post 45

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 11:30pmSanction this postReply
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Rand's concept of objectivity, both in epistemology and in ethics, is tied to volition. She firmly linked them both to free will. Perceptual awareness may well be objective but cannot be known as objective without conceptual objectivity which, however, is tied to the human capacity to initiate the creative activity of concept formation (nothing in the world forces concepts, let alone definitions, upon us).
        It is fine to attempt to formulate a conception of objectivity without volition but it will not be related to Rand's Objectivism. It will be an independent philosophical stance, just as any morality sans free will shall be something radically different from the Objectivist ethics (e.g., it will have no room for personal responsibility, a guilty conscience, pride, achievement, bona fide regret, forgiveness, or punishment, all of which presuppose freedom of the will--for more see Tibor Machan, Initiative--Human Agency and Society [Hoover Institution Press, 2000]). Indeed, it is one of Ayn Rand's paramount philosophical achievements to have forged the conceptual connection between epistemology and ethics--via the "choice to think" idea--although there is a strong intimation of this in Thomas Aquinas, too.
        I think Roger should--if he is free to--start his own independent philosophical movement instead of hitching his determinist outlook to Objectivism. That's kind of like trying to square the circle.


Post 46

Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 12:54amSanction this postReply
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Brilliant post, Dr. Machan, bravo!

George


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Post 47

Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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Tibor Machan, one of my dearest and oldest friends, wrote:
It is fine to attempt to formulate a conception of objectivity without volition but it will not be related to Rand's Objectivism
I respectfully disagree with Tibor's characterization of my position about objectivity and the objective. It bears no relationship to what I wrote in my article.

Tibor and I have heard the same Peikoff lectures. He and I both know that Peikoff, for a time, presented perception as being objective -- and then, at Rand's behest, abandoned this view, cleaving instead to the notion that non-volitional adherence to reality does not count as being objective. (Which is true enough, by definition, if you define "objective" as: being volitionally adherent to reality.)

Tibor knows -- at least, he should know, if he read my article -- that I am not offering a "deterministic" definition of "objectivity," any more than Rand was offering a "deterministic" definition of "value," when she defined it as "that which one acts to gain and/or keep."

In fact, in my article, I did not challenge the Objectivist doctrine of volition, but instead deliberately assumed, for the sake of argument, that volition is true, and located volitional objectivity within the more general category of objectivity. Here is the relevant quote from my article:
Before the Trichotomy was “Objective Reality.” Rand’s original formulation of “objectivity” ("Who is the final authority in ethics?", Objectivist Newsletter) was twofold, but it had nothing to do with the IOS trichotomy, formulated and published mere months later in the same publication (in her essay "What is Capitalism?"). Nor was it equivalent to the distinction in this essay between the ontologically objective and the epistemically objective (itself drawn from my own analysis of Rand's discussion in "What is Capitalism?").

Rand first focused on objectivity as an ethical matter, an aspect of rationality. For Rand, rationality, the basic virtue, entailed the respect for and recognition of facts. Every other virtue was an aspect of rationality and involved, in some way, the recognition of a significant fact of reality.

Objectivity, too, was for Rand (1965a) a virtue, in that it involved one’s recognition of two basic aspects of “the relationship of consciousness to existence” (7).


  • To be metaphysically objective, or to possess metaphysical objectivity, one must recognize that the world exists and is what it is “independent of any perceiver’s consciousness.” Consciousness holds existence as its object; it does not create the world.

  • To be epistemologically objective, or to possess epistemological objectivity, one must recognize that, to know the world, man must adhere to reality by using a specific means (reason) in accordance with a certain method (logic). Consciousness can know the world as it is; it is not blocked from reality and need not distort reality, but knowledge is not automatic or causeless.


    In each case, however, it must be remembered that we are speaking of the objectivity not of reality, but of one’s recognition of how reality and awareness relate to one another—i.e., not of “objective reality,” but of one’s objective recognition of reality’s being independent of awareness. That is, both elements of the distinction in Rand's first 1965 essay are volitional aspects of what I call epistemic objectivity, i.e., a consciousness (and person) that is adhering to reality. It is not until later that year that Rand succeeded in articulating both epistemic objectivity, in its more general form,
  • My friend Tibor also wrote:
    Perceptual awareness may well be objective but cannot be known as objective without conceptual objectivity which, however, is tied to the human capacity to initiate the creative activity of concept formation (nothing in the world forces concepts, let alone definitions, upon us).

    Again, this may well be true, but it is irrelevant to my article. There is a vital distinction between truth and justification of knowledge. You can hold a belief that is true, even if you have not rationally justified it. If I say "There is water on Mars," but I have not yet proved that there is water on Mars," my statement, while unjustified, is nonetheless true. Similarly, if perception is objective -- i.e., adherent to reality -- even if it is not yet known to be objective, it is nonetheless adherent to reality.

    Peikoff, who had such a wonderful beginning to his analysis of perception, caved in to Rand's overly narrow definition of "objectivity." He basically shrunk his concept of objectivity as "adherent to reality" to objectivity as "volitionally adherent to reality." It is a classic case of the Fallacy of the Frozen Abstraction. (See Rand's "Collectivized Ethics" in The Virtue of Selfishness.)

    It is as if Rand, having second thoughts over her definition of value as "that which one acts to gain and/or keep," and redefined it as "that which one volitionally acts to gain and/or keep" (or "that which one rationally acts to gain and/or keep"). And this observation/comparison is not that far-fetched. There are folks on this website, even in this thread, who have fallen prey to the error of the Frozen Abstraction Fallacy in regard to Rand's concept of "value."

    Stay tuned, folks: next week, some well-meaning Objectivist is going to come out with an argument that altruism is "not really" a moral code, and that the virtues of Christianity are "not really" virtues, and that Platonism is "not really" a philosophy. You think it can't or won't happen?

    My friend Tibor suggests that I abandon Objectivism and start my own cult of determinism. I respectfully decline his suggestion. Instead, I think I will continue to ask that Objectivists re-examine and cleave to Rand's best, most fundamental premises and insights -- among others, her illuminating discussion of the Fallacy of the Frozen Abstraction -- and to reject her ill-considered attempts to "correct" Peikoff's best insights and contributions to philosophy.

    REB

    (Edited by Roger Bissell on 2/15, 6:07pm)


    Post 48

    Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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    ===================

    There are folks on this website, even in this thread, who have fallen prey to the error of the Frozen Abstraction Fallacy in regard to Rand's concept of "value."

    ===================

     

    My ears are tingling.

     

     

    ===================

    Stay tuned, folks: next week, some well-meaning Objectivist is going to come out with an argument that altruism is "not really" a moral code, and that the virtues of Christianity are "not really" virtues

    ===================

     

    Kidstuff, that's what that is. While I do tend to err on the side of rationalism, I'm much too smart to fall into these silly, for-the-mediocre-minded traps.

     

    Ed

    [thinking aloud]


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    Post 49

    Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:44pmSanction this postReply
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    Ed, the way you've expressed it, how could John Dailey not agree with you (and me) regarding value? :-)

    REB


    Post 50

    Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 1:46amSanction this postReply
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    REB noted ...

    ==============
    Ed, the way you've expressed it, how could John Dailey not agree with you (and me) regarding value? :-)
    ==============

    Well, I don't know what John has to do with it, but Peikoff notes ...


    ==============
    The former is taken to subsume qualities independent of man's means of perception [ontological objectivity?]; the latter is taken to mean "subjective and/or unreal." ... A quality that derives from an interaction between external objects and man's perceptual apparatus belongs to neither category. ... By definition, a form of perception cannot be forced into either category. Since it is a product of interaction ... between two entities, object and apparatus, it cannot be identified exclusively with either. Such products  introduce a third alternative: they are not object alone or perceiver alone, but object-as-perceived [my note: adverbial (direct) perception]. ...

    We can know the content of reality "pure," apart from man's perceptual form; but we can do so only by abstracting away man's perceptual form ... to demand that the senses give us such "pure" content is to rewrite the function of the senses and the mind. It is to demand blatant contradiction: a sensory image bearing no marks of its sensory character--or a percept of that which, by its nature, is the object only of a concept.
    ==============

    When there is a physically-causal interaction -- when ONLY such an interaction can possibly be involved -- there can be no talk of "objectivity." There is no objectivity in ...

                         G * m1 * m2
    Fgravity =  ____________                                                           
                                             
                               r2 

    ... it just is (true of reality).

    Ed


    Post 51

    Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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    Roger says, among many other things that I'll leave to be discussed in scholarly forums, not on blogs, "If I say 'There is water on Mars,' but I have not yet proved that there is water on Mars,' my statement, while unjustified, is nonetheless true." This has several problems. First, what is also unjustified is the claim that "while unjustified, is nonetheless true." Just consider, "There is water on Mars" is unjustified--cannot be said to be true on any rational basis; so how would it be justified to say it "is nonetheless true." Since saying "it is nonetheless false" might also be true, given there is no justification in place, all we can really say we don't have a clue as to whether "There is water on Mars" is true. Second, if we were to stick in what I think Roger forgot to stick in, namely, "And there really is water on Mars," though we haven't any justification for this claim, then that claim would not only be left unjustified but we couldn't tell if it is true or false.
             This radical separation of truth from justification will not work. I think Fred Seddon's paper from the West Virginia Philosophical Society meetings of last fall handles all this much better than anything I have seen so far. For me talk of truth independently of justification is akin to talk of tabletops independently of table supports.
             BTW, I leave Peikoff out of all discussions of Rand's philosophy. I have no interest in what he said, wrote, did, or anything. I'll stick to Rand. WHen Peikoff pays me the respect of acknowledging my contributions to the discussion of Objectivism, I'll return it.


    Post 52

    Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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    In Post 47, Roger Bissell wrote,
    There is a vital distinction between truth and justification of knowledge. You can hold a belief that is true, even if you have not rationally justified it. If I say "There is water on Mars," but I have not yet proved that there is water on Mars," my statement, while unjustified, is nonetheless true.
    In Post 51, Tibor Machan replied,
    This has several problems. First, what is also unjustified is the claim that "while unjustified, is nonetheless true." Just consider, "There is water on Mars" is unjustified--cannot be said to be true on any rational basis; so how would it be justified to say it "is nonetheless true." Since saying "it is nonetheless false" might also be true, given there is no justification in place, all we can really say we don't have a clue as to whether "There is water on Mars" is true. Second, if we were to stick in what I think Roger forgot to stick in, namely, "And there really is water on Mars," though we haven't any justification for this claim, then that claim would not only be left unjustified but we couldn't tell if it is true or false.

    This radical separation of truth from justification will not work. I think Fred Seddon's paper from the West Virginia Philosophical Society meetings of last fall handles all this much better than anything I have seen so far. For me talk of truth independently of justification is akin to talk of tabletops independently of table supports.
    Although one cannot know that a statement is true without its being justified, it can nevertheless be true without being justified, which was Roger's point. All that is required in order for it to be true is that it correspond to reality, even if no one has verified its correspondence. So if there is water on Mars, then the proposition, "There is water on Mars" is true, even if there is insufficient evidence to justify it.

    Tibor says that, unless we can justify it, "we don't have a clue as to whether 'There is water on Mars' is true"--that "we couldn't tell if it is true or false" (his words). But observe what his statement implies: It implies that there is such a thing as the truth or falsity of a proposition independently of its verification or falsification. To "verify" or "falsify" something is to ascertain its truth or falsity. But if there is no truth or falsity independently of such verification or falsification, then there is nothing to verify or falsify. If I say, "I can't tell whether this statement is true or false," I'm saying that it's either true or false, but that I can't tell which. This implies that its truth or falsity exists independently of my recognition of it. I don't create its truth or falsity by identifying it (which is the primacy of consciousness creeping in the back door). You can't identify something that doesn't already exist. But if we uphold the primacy of existence, then we must recognize that a proposition can be true without its being identified as true. All that is required for its truth is that it correspond to a fact of reality, regardless of whether or not anyone recognizes or identifies it as such. In verifying a proposition, one discovers its truth; one does not create it.

    - Bill

    Post 53

    Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 8:26pmSanction this postReply
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    Subject: The Great Philosophy 101 "Truth" Debate - Round 9532

    > All that is required in order for it to be true is that it correspond to reality, even if no one has verified its correspondence [Bill Dwyer]
    >This radical separation of truth from justification will not work [Tibor Machan]

    This is endless academic philosophy (or Objectivist) debate number 376 in which ambiguity, words being used in clashing or shifting ways, is the problem because a word is being used in two different senses:

    Truth = the quality of being in accordance with fact (dictionary). This can be meant in two ways. 1. Metaphysical - it is "true" because it actually exists 'out there' regardless of whether someone recognizes it 2. Epistemological - A statement I make is true because it represents my -recognition or knowledge- of a fact out there in reality.

    Each of you is struggling to have truth either entirely fall under meaning #1 or #2. But, regardless of which should be the common usage in philosophy is it the case that BOTH USAGES EXIST in the English language.

    So your debate is pointless and, in fact, fallacious: It's an instance of the classic fallacy of equivocation in logic and rhetoric textbooks: "Was the Soviet Union a democracy?" You need to start by agreeing on a COMMON DEFINITION of democracy or you can never come to an agreement.

    Philip Coates

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    Post 54

    Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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    I appreciate Bill Dwyer's reply to Tibor Machan, just prior to Phil Coates' post immediately above. Bill said it well, and I agree with him.

    It seems to me that Tibor is making too tight a connection between truth and justification. One thing that tips me off is Tibor's analogy of the table:
    For me talk of truth independently of justification is akin to talk of tabletops independently of table supports.

    I think Tibor is confusing truth with truth-claims.

    If one's claim that a proposition is true is like a tabletop, then Tibor is right: the support of one's claim is one's justification of the proposition. Truth-claims are supported by evidence and logic (justification).

    But if the truth of a proposition is like a tabletop, then the support of the truth of a proposition is the proposition's correspondence to reality. The truth of a proposition certainly can exist apart from the proposition's having been justified. Joe utters "There is water on Mars," though he has no proof for it. Since I know that there is indeed water on Mars (I know this because I saw a radar image of it in the newspaper several days ago), I know that his proposition is true, even though he has not justified it. So I know that his proposition corresponds to reality and is therefore true -- but my knowing that it corresponds to reality does not make it corresond to reality. It corresponds to reality independently of my knowing that it does. Truth is supported by facts, period.

    And here are the facts that support the truth of the proposition "There is water on Mars."  :-)

    http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMGKA808BE_0.html  (Your tax dollars at work!)

    But the proposition is true independently of my having cited these facts. It is the facts themselves that make the proposition true, not my knowing them. Knowing them only justifies my claim that the proposition is true.

    Phil's attempt to reduce the discussion to arguing at cross-purposes is well-intended, but does not help. Even if Bill and I were to accept Tibor's perspective that truth is not just correspondence to reality, but "recognition of reality" (which is also Peikoff's perspective, by the way), there would then need to be a concept to designate the fact that a proposition corresponds to reality, apart from one's recognition or knowledge of that correspondence. Having pre-empted "truth" (which means just that, correspondence, in the Aristotelian tradition), what are we to call it? "Gloop"?

    On the other hand, if Tibor were to accept Bill's and my perspective that truth is correspondence to reality, pure and simple, then he has a concept readily available -- and standardly used in Objectivist and Aristotelian circles -- for the recognition of truth (correspondence to reality): justified belief or knowledge. I agree that a COMMON DEFINITION of "truth" needs to be agreed upon, but I think the common ground fruitful further discussion is to be found my moving in our direction, not Tibor's.

    REB

    (Edited by Roger Bissell on 2/16, 9:13pm)

    (Edited by Roger Bissell on 2/16, 9:17pm)


    Post 55

    Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:10pmSanction this postReply
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    Phil's got good points, but I find discussions like these irresistible -- like the Sirens of mythology.

    Sorry folks, to each his own, but the personal refinement I get from a clash of viewpoints like this is of value to me. If you can't stand looking at me diving into the foray here (and mixing it up even more than it already is), then please ... just look away.


    ======================
    and standardly used in Objectivist and Aristotelian circles -- for the recognition of truth (correspondence to reality): justified belief or knowledge.
    ======================

    The "recognition of truth" (ie. knowledge) is not a "justified belief." Knowledge is not a "belief" in something. While I believe that Martians don't exist, I don't just "believe" (justifiably or not) that round squares don't exist. There is a category difference here. Knowledge is something that, by proper definition, cannot even BE false. It is an expansion of our a priori zone of awareness. Re-read Wallace Matson in The Philosophic Thought of Ayn Rand (he philosophically validated induction in that chapter! -- and I'm about to write an article on that right here).

    Ed


    Post 56

    Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:26amSanction this postReply
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    In Post 53, Phil Coats pans the debate over the nature of truth as being a pointless exercise in academic trivia. He writes,
    This is endless academic philosophy (or Objectivist) debate number 376 in which ambiguity, words being used in clashing or shifting ways, is the problem because a word is being used in two different senses:

    Truth = the quality of being in accordance with fact (dictionary). This can be meant in two ways. 1. Metaphysical - it is "true" because it actually exists 'out there' regardless of whether someone recognizes it 2. Epistemological - A statement I make is true because it represents my -recognition or knowledge- of a fact out there in reality.

    Each of you is struggling to have truth either entirely fall under meaning #1 or #2. But, regardless of which should be the common usage in philosophy is it the case that BOTH USAGES EXIST in the English language.

    So your debate is pointless and, in fact, fallacious: It's an instance of the classic fallacy of equivocation in logic and rhetoric textbooks: "Was the Soviet Union a democracy?" You need to start by agreeing on a COMMON DEFINITION of democracy or you can never come to an agreement.
    Tell that to Ayn Rand in regard to her discussion with John Hospers. In replying to him, she writes


    You object to my definition "Truth is the recognition of reality," and you say: "No--for truth may not be recognized.... There are truths even when nobody knows them and nobody recognizes them. Many things are true about the world which nobody yet knows." Aren't you confusing "truth" with "facts? "Truth" is a concept that refers to epistemology, not to metaphysics; to consciousness not to existence or reality. "Facts" cannot be "true" or "false"; facts are ("existence exists"). "Facts" are the standard of truth or falsehood; it is by means of "facts" that we determine whether an idea of ours is true or false. "Truth" is the attribute of an idea in somebody's consciousness (the relationship of that idea to the facts of reality) and it cannot exist apart from a consciousness. You say: "There are truths even when nobody knows them and nobody recognizes them." No, there are "facts" even when nobody knows them and nobody recognizes them; these "facts" are potentially the material of truths; the recognition of these "facts" by some human consciousness constitutes "truths." You say: "Many things are true about the world which nobody yet knows." Isn't this a colloquial, verbal foreshortening, which is inexact? To be exact philosophically, one would have to say: "Many facts exist in the world, which nobody yet knows, and when somebody discovers them, he will be able to form many true ideas which nobody can form at present. (Letters of Ayn Rand, p. 528)



    Phil, do you believe it's important to be "exact philosophically"? Rand certainly did. Do you think her debate with Hospers over the meaning of truth was pointless and fallacious, a classic example of the fallacy of equivocation? You do? Why you heretic, you! Get thee to Objectivist purgatory! Seriously, I think that Rand had a point when she stressed being philosophically exact. I must say, though, that I disagree with both Hospers and Rand here -- Hospers, because he does seem to be referring to facts and not truth (as Rand points out, these are two very different entities) -- and Rand, because (as we have seen), a proposition can be true without constituting the recognition of reality. That does not, however, mean that 'truth' is metaphysical or that it is being confused with 'fact.' That truth pertains only to propositions does not mean that a true proposition cannot exist unless someone recognizes its correspondence to reality; all it means is that the proposition must be grasped and understood by a human consciousness, which the statement "There is water on Mars" clearly is.

    Moreover, I don't agree that the definition of truth that you cite -- viz., "The quality of being in accordance with fact" -- can properly be interpreted as requiring knowledge of a fact, because whereas all propositional knowledge accords with fact, not every proposition that accords with fact constitutes knowledge. In other words, a proposition that represents knowledge is true, but not every proposition that is true represents knowledge. That someone could mistakenly and inconsistently interpret your definition of 'truth' as requiring a knowledge of the fact to which the proposition corresponds does not mean that his interpretation is just as good or just as legitimate as one that is consistent with the definition. The idea that this dispute over the meaning of 'truth' depends solely on a matter of arbitrary linguistic preference implies that there is no correct way to interpret a definition, which is not only at variance with Objectivism, but can also have disastrous philosophic implications.

    There is a very good reason why the concept of truth differs from the concept of knowledge: Observe that when we ask if a particular idea is true, we are not asking if it constitutes knowledge. Obviously, if we don't know whether or not it is true, it couldn't possibly constitute knowledge, but it could be true, if it corresponds to reality. The two concepts -- truth and knowledge -- are decidedly different and should not be conflated.

    - Bill

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    Post 57

    Friday, February 17, 2006 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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    > "Truth" is a concept that refers to epistemology, not to metaphysics; to consciousness not to existence or reality. "Facts" cannot be "true" or "false"; facts are [Rand as channeled by Dwyer]

    Bill, I agree with Rand that this -ought- to be the distinction between a precise and non-ambiguous definition of truth as differentiated from facts. Just as I believe the philosophically precise definition of selfishness and egoism should have no negative connotation beyond concern with one's own interests. My point was that the meanings currently are different from Rand's.

    Would I like to abandon centuries of differing philosophical usages of terms like truth, objective, selfish, capitalism, etc and switch over to Rand's more admirably precise meanings? Absolutely. But any debate must at least acknowledge how words are used, or say "by this I mean" or "I am using truth in the Oist definition not in the one used in philosophy 101 or in Websters dictionary sense number two".

    The problem with this thread and similar debates is no one seems to want to slow down and *define their terms* before they launch into full contention mode.

    Phil
    (PS, don't let the chicken soup go to your head)

    Post 58

    Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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    Phil Coates wrote:

    Would I like to abandon centuries of differing philosophical usages of terms like truth, objective, selfish, capitalism, etc and switch over to Rand's more admirably precise meanings?

    The distinction between truth and fact was made in philosophy long before Rand made it. 
          Plato (translated) said that true statements assert "things that are as they are", whereas false statements assert "things different from the things that are".  A statement in which "what is different is stated as the same or what is not as what is" is false (Sophist 263 b-d). “Things as they are” is another way of saying “fact.”
          Aristotle (translated) expressed the correspondence theory of truth in these ways: "For it is because the actual thing exists or does not exist that the statement is said to be true or false" (Cat. 469.10).  "To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, or of what is not that it is not, is true" (Metaph. 1011b25). “What is” is another way of saying “fact.”
          Much of the historical philosophical discussion of the correspondence theory of truth addresses the question of truth-bearers.  What bears truth?  In other words, what is truth a property of?  Is truth a property of facts or is it a property of statements, beliefs, ideas or meanings?  Generally the answer has been that truth is a property of one of the latter, for only they may be true or false.  "True fact" is redundant and "false fact" is a contradiction in terms.  Facts are not truth-bearers but truth-makers.   
         In other words and echoing Dwyer and Rand: "Truth" is a concept that refers to epistemology, not to metaphysics. "Facts" cannot be "true" or "false"; facts are.




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    Post 59

    Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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    I agree with Merlin's last statement about facts, but there is more to the matter of facts, truth, and the objective.

    Truth, like other relational (objective) phenomena, has two aspects.

    1. The product of the act of awareness that identifies a fact is truth -- i.e., a true proposition. Such an act of awareness is epistemically objective.

    2. A fact as identified by an act of awareness is truth. Such an aspect of reality thus becomes ontologically objective.

    But is it only when we cognitively grasp facts that they further become truths. As Merlin affirmed, facts by themselves "just are." This is like existence which, apart from consciousness, "just is." Existence and facts, apart from our knowledge of them, are intrinsic.

    This ties in nicely with what I have been trying to say throughout this discussion.

    REB


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