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Post 60

Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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In post 41, Joe questioned Roger ...

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I just don't quite see how epistemic and ontological objectivity are used.  Epistemic seems fine.  We're aware of the sense data.  It's relational.  But why discuss the sense data itself as ontologically objective?  If we have knowledge of a rock, does that make the rock ontologically objective?  Why isn't it simply intrinsic?

What purpose does it serve for us to identify that it is the focus of awareness?
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... then, without directly answering Joe's question, Roger concludes ...

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As Merlin affirmed, facts by themselves "just are." This is like existence which, apart from consciousness, "just is." Existence and facts, apart from our knowledge of them, are intrinsic.

This ties in nicely with what I have been trying to say throughout this discussion.
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On the contrary, it seems that it "ties in nicely with what [Joe has] been trying to say." Am I missing something subtle here?

Ed


Post 61

Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Ed and Joe here. I see no need for the term "ontologically objective" when we have "intrinsic." Also, if one claims that "ontologically objective" is needed, then what about "ontologically  intrinsic" and "ontologically subjective"? I can't see that "ontologically" adds anything except confusion in either case.

Post 62

Friday, February 17, 2006 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Roger wrote,
Truth, like other relational (objective) phenomena, has two aspects.

1. The product of the act of awareness that identifies a fact is truth -- i.e., a true proposition. Such an act of awareness is epistemically objective.

2. A fact as identified by an act of awareness is truth. Such an aspect of reality thus becomes ontologically objective.

But [it is] only when we cognitively grasp facts that they further become truths. As Merlin affirmed, facts by themselves "just are." This is like existence which, apart from consciousness, "just is." Existence and facts, apart from our knowledge of them, are intrinsic.
I agree with No. 1, as a sufficient condition of truth, but not as a necessary condition, for a proposition need not constitute the identification of a fact in order to be true; it need only correspond to a fact.

I do not, however, agree with No. 2. A fact, even "as identified by an act of awareness," is not a truth. This confuses the object of awareness with the act of awareness. The concept of truth is strictly epistemological; it is not metaphysical or ontological. Nor is it correct to say, as Roger does, that "it is only when we cognitively grasp facts that they further become truths." Facts don't morph into truths simply because they are grasped by us. Only propositions, ideas or beliefs can be true (or false). Ontological entities like facts and existents are not true or false; they simply are.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 2/17, 1:45pm)


Post 63

Friday, February 17, 2006 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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> The distinction between truth and fact was made in philosophy long before Rand made it. [Merlin]

Yes that's true. And that's a fact, Jack.

Post 64

Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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Phil cited Merlin and commented:
> The distinction between truth and fact was made in philosophy long before Rand made it. [Merlin]

Yes that's true. And that's a fact, Jack.
Cute, Phil, cute! But no cigar. You committed an unpardonable philosophic transgression: you equivocated on the subject of your attribution. Sounds nasty, doesn't it?!

When you said, "Yes, THAT'S true," what did you intend as the referent of the pronoun? Presumably, the CLAIM that "The distinction between truth and fact was made in philosophy long before Rand made it."

But when you said, "And THAT'S a fact, Jack," were you referring to the same thing? No, not if you were using the terms "true" and "fact" correctly. The referent of the second sentence was not the claim itself but the REFERENT of the claim -- the fact to which it referred.

So, despite the implication of your statement, you were not illustrating a case in which the two words, "true" and "fact" were being used to refer to the same thing, because the two pronouns--the two "that's"--should quite properly have referred to different nouns: to the CLAIM in the first case, and to the REFERENT of the claim in the second.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 2/17, 5:07pm)


Post 65

Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, you have just refuted a joke.

Post 66

Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
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Hey - give Bill credit - not everyone can do that......;-))

Post 67

Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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Oh.

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Post 68

Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 6:28amSanction this postReply
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Truth is an attribute of judgments, statements, beliefs, sentences and so forth. To attribute to these truth requires some reasons. If one lacks those reasons, the attribution is arbitrary, groundless. Like any other such arbitrary, groundless attribution--say guilt, accomplishment--to something, it is reckless or pointless.To say a statement can be true but the reasons for so claiming missing is merely to say that if and when an investigation has been undertaken, truth may be attributed to it. But so might falsehood.

Post 69

Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:51amSanction this postReply
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In Post 68, Tibor writes: Truth is an attribute of judgments, statements, beliefs, sentences and so forth. To attribute to these truth requires some reasons. If one lacks those reasons, the attribution is arbitrary, groundless. Like any other such arbitrary, groundless attribution--say guilt, accomplishment--to something, it is reckless or pointless. To say a statement can be true but the reasons for so claiming missing is merely to say that if and when an investigation has been undertaken, truth may be attributed to it. But so might falsehood.

Let's be very clear what "attribution" means in this context. It doesn't mean creation; it means discovery or recognition. And you can only discover or recognize something that already exists. Tibor says that "when an investigation has been undertaken, truth may be attributed to [a proposition]. But so might falsehood." What this says is that when an investigation has been undertaken, one may discover that the proposition is true (or false), which implies that it was either true or false before the investigation revealed which it was.

Suppose I argued analogously: "To say that the defendant can be guilty but the reasons for so claiming missing is merely to say that if and when an investigation has been undertaken, guilt may be attributed to him. But so might innocence." Well, the defendant didn't become guilty (or innocent) at the time of my discovery. To "attribute" guilt (or innocence) to him as a result of my investigation simply means to recognize that he is guilty (or innocent). In other words, my discovery that he is guilty (or innocent) didn't create his guilt or innocent (which, again, is the primacy of consciousness creeping in the back door); he already was guilty (or innocent); I merely identified it. The same applies to a proposition's truth or falsity. I don't create the proposition's truth or falsity by discovering it; I merely identify it.

In short, just as the guilt or innocence of an accused exists independently of my recognition of it, so does the truth or falsity of a proposition.

- Bill



Post 70

Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 11:56amSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer wrote:

What this says is that when an investigation has been undertaken, one may discover that the proposition is true (or false), which implies that it was either true or false before the investigation revealed which it was.
 In short, just as the guilt or innocence of an accused exists independently of my recognition of it, so does the truth or falsity of a proposition.
The "it" in either case is a fact -- the target of the investigation in the first case and guilt or innocence in the second case. Your way confounds fact and true/false/arbitrary/unknown. The distinction between fact and true/false/arbitrary/unknown is made to avoid such confounding.



Post 71

Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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I am sorry but I have been addressing Roger Bissell; I am interested in discussing these matters only with the original author--it's hard enough to keep a two way, semi-serious exchange going on such complicated topics in this kind of forum. It would probably best to move to some scholarly forum anyway. (Besides, I am not interested in discussing anything with one of the interlocutors here, for a variety of reasons that only a long history, going back to the 70s, could adequately explain.)

Post 72

Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 5:45pmSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer wrote:
What this says is that when an investigation has been undertaken, one may discover that the proposition is true (or false), which implies that it was either true or false before the investigation revealed which it was.

In short, just as the guilt or innocence of an accused exists independently of my recognition of it, so does the truth or falsity of a proposition.
The "it" in either case is a fact -- the target of the investigation in the first case and guilt or innocence in the second case. Your way confounds fact and true/false/arbitrary/unknown. The distinction between fact and true/false/arbitrary/unknown is made to avoid such confounding.
Merlin, I'm afraid I don't follow you. The "target of the investigation" in the first case is the truth or falsity of the proposition; in the second case, the guilt or innocence of the accused. In both cases, one is investigating the possession of a characteristic that exists independently of one's recognition of it. In the first case, the characteristic is truth or falsity; in the second case, guilt or innocence. The two cases are, therefore, perfectly analogous.

- Bill

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Post 73

Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 9:18pmSanction this postReply
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I am out of time to devote to online discussions for a while. I agree with what Bill Dwyer has posted about truth existing independent of justification. For the others who do not share this view, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for the good input, everybody. It will help in subsequent versions I write of this material.

Best to all,
Roger Bissell


Post 74

Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 7:53amSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer wrote:

Merlin, I'm afraid I don't follow you.
You surprise me. In post #56 you use Ayn Rand's making a distinction between fact and truth in your reply to Phil Coates' confounding truth. Yet when I make the same distinction between fact and truth in reply to you, you don't follow me.

Baffled


Post 75

Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:25pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Yes, there's a distinction between fact and truth, but it wasn't relevant to the point I was making!

- Bill

Post 76

Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 8:53amSanction this postReply
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From #39:
    Roger’s ontological and cognitive senses of the objective relation differ from Rand’s metaphysical and epistemological senses of objectivity in three ways. I’ll mention two of them.

    Firstly, the forms of consciousness to which Roger’s ontological and cognitive aspects of the objective relation apply are wider. These aspects apply to all varieties of consciousness, whether or not they are volitional types of consciousness.

    Secondly, Roger’s ontological and cognitive aspects of the objective are not necessarily norms for conscious rule-following. They are, however, related to norms in the more general engineering-performance sense. Any system having a function has performance norms. Human perception, pleasure and pain, memory, dreams (perhaps), imagination, judgment-level evaluations, and emotions all have functions and performance norms in the human being. Roger’s ontological and cognitive aspects of the objective figure into the performance norms of the volitional forms of consciousness, and they figure into the performance norms of perception, of pleasure-pain evaluations, of memories, and, perhaps, of dreams.
See in this connection: Successful Perceiving
Richard Kenneth Atkins (2010, Ph.D. dissertation)


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