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Post 60

Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:57pmSanction this postReply
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Correction:

I have referred often in the preceding posts to zero-sum or the zero-sum fallacy and I have realized I'm using the incorrect term. Zero-sum means that one must take something away from another to gain something of value. Which is an argument often given by socialists or communists that think trade cannot involve mutual benefit or a win win scenario. That there is only a finite piece of the pie and the rich exploit the poor. What I mean to refer to is the "Perfect Solution" fallacy which assumes that a solution should be rejected because part of the problem still exists, or that we haven't attained 100% success with our solution. It is a type of false dilemma fallacy and is usually argued by those that profess a utopia exists such as commonly seen by communists that argue for a socialist utopia or anarchists that also tend to argue for a utopian solution by abolishing government. It's also a common tactic used by communists to attack Capitalism. They point out to the occasional failure in Capitalist societies and argue that it ought to be thrown out in favor of a socialist utopia.

Post 61

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 4:56amSanction this postReply
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John, I'm afraid I'm going to have to lay off this discussion for a little while. I feel as if I'm shooting from the hip, I need to fall back, regroup, put together my thoughts, and articulate them better. That doesn't mean that I'm done with the debate, I just feel as if we're not making any headway, and I also sense that tempers are starting to flare. Just a couple things though....

Lebanon does indeed have a monopoly government. And Hezbollah as a political party is a legitimate part of that government. It's existence doesn't mean theres not a monopoly government anymore than the existence of both Democrats and Republicans means we don't have a monopooly government here.

Then let's hear them!!! I gave you an example of a dispute with multiple police agencies and you said you'd mull it over. So are you done mulling it over? What is your view?
These lines here are one reason I feel I have to take a quick break. Tuesday nights I have other things that are more important than posting here. So just relax!

No Jonathan it's not ok. You keep bringing up the socialist arguments for redistributing wealth and creating rights that do not exist as if that's the same argument I am providing. When they argue these rights, they are arguing for something that is not a right. When I argue for justice and due process, it is a right. And I'm not going to go for that strawman. Not gonna work.
Did you even read what I said? I clearly explained why there is no right to education etc.

Well thats all I have to say until I have some time to formulate a better response, but I'm going to keep checking on the thread if there's anything else you want to say.


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Post 62

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 7:55amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan wrote:

Lebanon does indeed have a monopoly government. And Hezbollah as a political party is a legitimate part of that government. It's existence doesn't mean theres not a monopoly government anymore than the existence of both Democrats and Republicans means we don't have a monopooly government here.


This is a mischaracterization. Hezbollah has it's own army, backed and funded by Iran, that is seperate from the Lebanese National Army. It has free reign in Lebanon and acts without permission or authority from the Lebanese government but only to Hezbollah party members. I am not aware of a seprate army that the Democrats or Republicans have. I'm only aware of one military in the US.

Post 63

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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I'm only aware of one military in the US.
We also have some xenophobes here who call themselves the Minuteman Project.


Post 64

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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I always find these anarcho-capitalism vs minarchism discussions interesting, as I used to be in the former camp and am now firmly in the latter. 

Jonathan said:

Did you even read what I said? I clearly explained why there is no right to education etc

I think its important to differentiate between positive rights and negative rights.  Any 'right' to something that must be provided by someone else (e.g. health care, education, food, housing, etc) is nothing less than a right to enslave other people, and as such can not be properly considered a right.  Only rights that come from preventing other people from doing things to you can properly be considered rights.  We have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  That is, we have a right to not be killed and not be enslaved.  Free speech, right to associateion, freedom of religion, etc, are all rights which come only from preventing other people from doing things to you.  A proper government deals only in enforcing these rights, to the extent which it deviates from them is a measure of its illegitimacy. 


Post 65

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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Any 'right' to something that must be provided by someone else (e.g. health care, education, food, housing, etc) is nothing less than a right to enslave other people, and as such can not be properly considered a right.

We have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

...secured by whom and at whose expense? Securing these rights is also something that must be provded by someone else, and hence, according to your definition, a right to enslave.


Post 66

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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We also have some xenophobes here who call themselves the Minuteman Project.

As well as various gangs and organized crime organizations that operate without the consent, plus many private militias that are consitutionally protected.  

Post 67

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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This is a mischaracterization. Hezbollah has it's own army, backed and funded by Iran, that is seperate from the Lebanese National Army. It has free reign in Lebanon and acts without permission or authority from the Lebanese government but only to Hezbollah party members. I am not aware of a seprate army that the Democrats or Republicans have. I'm only aware of one military in the US.

I don't see this as an indictment of anarchism as much as an indictment of the idea of monopoly government. What I've been trying to convey is that no matter what laws you pass or constitutions you write, a sizable majority can impose their will. In this case the majority of the popoulation supports Hezbollah, and so the government is powerless. But that's beside the point, even if it was truly a situation where anarchy reigned free, comparing it to an anarcho-capitalist society is comparing apples and oranges. It's like if I said, China has a monopoly goverenment, and they have horrific human rights violations, therefore monopoly governments are bad. It's two different situations. Likewise comparing anarchy in Somalia with free-market anarchism is also fallacious.


Post 68

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
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There is no inherent reason why a government that's limited only to bare-bones justice functions will require taxation to exist. The necessary services of a proper government--police, laws, courts, even defense--could be funded voluntarily, generally on a fee-for-service basis, along with (but not limited to) such supplemental non-coercive mechanisms as lotteries, special fund-raisers, and employment of volunteers.
John, that was from Bidinotto, who you've quoted and referred me to extensively on this thread. My objection to government is compulsory taxation; nothing more, nothing less. What do you think about these comments?


Post 69

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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Any 'right' to something that must be provided by someone else (e.g. health care, education, food, housing, etc) is nothing less than a right to enslave other people, and as such can not be properly considered a right.
I use the term anti-right to describe them. Just as anti-concepts obliterate concepts, these anti-rights obliterate rights.


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Post 70

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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Chris wrote:

We also have some xenophobes here who call themselves the Minuteman Project.


Which means what? They are still subject to the laws of this nation and if they violate them they are subject to prosecution. End of story on that one.

Jonathan wrote but apparently has not finished mulling over the essentials of market anarchism yet:

As well as various gangs and organized crime organizations that operate without the consent, plus many private militias that are consitutionally protected.


Yes indeed. Organized crime and gangs. The very thing that requires a monopoly government to stop or at least mitigate. Yet anarchists somehow think by abolishing the use of force it would somehow stop gangs and crime organizations from stopping their activities? As Robert Bidinotto writes:

Most of the saner anarchist theorists contend that a "just" agency (or even an innocent victim) has the right to forcibly respond to an "aggressor." But in the marketplace, which is governed solely by profit incentives, who will define who is the "aggressor" and who the "victim"? Which "private defense agency" has the final authority to enforce its definitions against those used by other competing agencies--or against individual "hold outs" who disagree--or against all those who proclaim a "sovereign right" to "secede" from that agency's determination?

When push comes to shove--as it often will, anarcho-fantasies to the contrary notwithstanding--the "private defense agency" faces a basic choice. Either (a) it uses coercion to enforce its verdict upon the "hold out" (or upon "competing agencies"), or (b) it fails to enforce its verdicts.

If (a), then the "private defense agency" is coercively "eliminating the competition"--that is, it's behaving as a "legal monopoly on force," in exactly the same way that anarchists find morally intolerable when a government is doing it. In that case, the argument for the moral superiority (let alone moral purity) of anarchism's "private defense agency" collapses.

If (b), however, then the agency's pronouncements are toothless and impotent. In that case, all that anyone need do to evade the private agency's criminal laws, verdicts, and sentences, is simply to ignore them.

Since many anarchists have tried gamely to ignore this key point, let me make it harder for them by repeating it.

Folks, it's really either/or. Either "private defense agencies" enforce their laws, or they don't.

If they do enforce their laws, then (by anarcho-definitions) they're "coercively" imposing their private legal systems on their competitors. And there goes their claim to morality.

But if they don't enforce their laws, then criminals will remain free to prey with impunity upon innocent individuals. And there goes the neighborhood.

Anarchists simply cannot tap dance around this dilemma by such subterfuges and dodges as claiming, "Oh, but governments would be far worse than private agencies"--or "Historically, limited governments never remain 'limited'."

Again, the moral case for anarchism is not that it is less bad than government, or that governments historically have not acted properly. The core anarchist claim is that anarchism is inherently non-aggressive, while government is inherently aggressive.

But both aspects of this claim are utterly and completely false.

There is nothing "immoral" or "aggressive" about an institution having the final authority to render and enforce just verdicts, according to objective procedures and rules of evidence. The fact that verdicts--by their very nature as final legal decisions--must be enforced against "outlaws," is not aggression, but defense: the organized social defense of the rights of innocent individuals against their victimizers. And the fact that final enforcement of legally rendered verdicts necessarily precludes further "competition," or "secession" by dissenters, is not aggression, either: it's simply recognition of reality. After all, an unenforced rule is not a law, but merely a suggestion.

Experience tells us that criminals do not respond to mere suggestions.


http://bidinotto.journalspace.com/?entryid=67

I'm not going to say anything more on the subject matter. It's been beaten to death. Either anarchists come up with a solution to their logical and moral contradictions as Robert says or face being called insane delusional nutcases by me.

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Post 71

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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John you never responded to this from post 58:

I thought you would follow me. What’s the difference between the two? Well, a “right” to education, like a “right” to healthcare, requires somebody else to provide it for you, right? Ok, so everybody has a right to justice. Provided by whom and at whose expense? Saying everybody has a right to justice is all well and good, and I agree with you, but in order to secure those rights, someone else’s labor is required. So does one man have the right to another man’s life? Would you favor a law that says if you see a mugging in process, you must intervene? Why not? If everyone has a right to justice, then surely it is right to force someone to ensure that justice is served, after all, violating rights is ok as long as your doing it to secure rights, isn’t that what you said? So what would happen to the poor if security were privatized? The same thing that would happen to them if education and healthcare and housing etc. were privatized.
Or Post 65. Also you haven't responded to the quote I provided from Bidinotto.
Jonathan wrote but apparently has not finished mulling over the essentials of market anarchism yet:

What the hell is your problem John? Every single thing you post on this forum has a caustic attitude behind it. I said I was done because I want to take some time and formulate a well-written response. But I saw a couple things that I could respond to real quick. Sorry. I'm still going to respond to you, unless of course you're done with this thread. Let me know if you're interested in continuing a civil conversation.


Post 72

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 10:05amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan, taxation is a moot point if you don't agree a monopoly government should exist. Either we come to an agreement on that or taxation is a fruitless discussion. And my attitude comes out of frustration. Arguing with people that constantly repeat themselves in endless circles can make me have a caustic attitude. Read post 41 again and you can see why you set me off with a caustic attitude when you snipped one sentence of my post and made a disingenous comment in response. Not to mention that you dropped some of the examples I gave to anarchist societies and demanded I give specific examples when I already did. That too set me off on a caustic attitude and it's annoying when I have to repeat myself. It's also annoying to have to respond to anecdotal failures of free republics and have to respond to the same tired perfect solution fallacies. It's a failure to grasp essentials and it's a form of a faulty generalization fallacy. It's ridiculous to have to respond to hyperbole like "policticians do what they want". It's the same stuff I hear from communists and they are intellectually dishonest arguments. I believe my frustrations and the appearance of them in a caustic attitude were well warranted considering the circumstances.
(Edited by John Armaos
on 8/23, 10:12am)


Post 73

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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"Securing these rights is also something that must be provded"

How do I 'provide' 'liberty' to you? How do you force me, at gun point, to give you liberty? The pursuit of happiness? These are not things that can be acquired by forcing other people to give you something or to do something for you. You can not 'force' me to make you 'free', you can only prevent me from forcing you to do things. I do not understand why you have difficulty seeing the distinction between forcing someone to do something *for you* and preventing them from doing something *to you*

Post 74

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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"Securing these rights is also something that must be provded"


How do I 'provide' 'liberty' to you? How do you force me, at gun point, to give you liberty? The pursuit of happiness? These are not things that can be acquired by forcing other people to give you something or to do something for you. You can not 'force' me to make you 'free', you can only prevent me from forcing you to do things. I do not understand why you have difficulty seeing the distinction between forcing someone to do something *for you* and preventing them from doing something *to you*

 

How do you prevent someone from doing something to you? Let’s talk in concretes for a second. Let’s say you want to be protected from a mugger. Now you could always take appropriate measures to avoid a situation where you were likely to get mugged, and carry a can of mace or a handgun just in case. But, you’re telling me that you have a right to have this situation prevented by the government. Back to my original question. How do you prevent this? While nothing is 100% guaranteed to prevent it, a heavy police presence in areas prone to mugging would help. This would deter most muggers, and also provide a greater probability that the culprit will be apprehended if any muggings do occur. Would you agree? So basically, your position is that you have a right to have your rights protected, by someone else. You and I are talking about two different things. You said:

 

I do not understand why you have difficulty seeing the distinction between forcing someone to do something *for you* and preventing them from doing something *to you*

 

When I spoke of the person who was forced to do something *for you*, it was that person who was charged with the task of preventing someone from doing something *to you* (ie, law enforcement officers).

 

When you spoke of preventing someone from doing something *to you*, you were referring to a criminal, ie someone who was trying to *force you* to do something. We were not on the same page.

 

Does that make sense? If you don’t agree, do you at least understand now the point I was making? I look forward to your comments. Thanks.


Post 75

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 2:47pmSanction this postReply
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Here's what I think is essential to government: A common set of laws, so that there's no armed conflict as to what laws should be enforced. Beyond that, the enforcement can be done privately for profit.

What's going to keep the private enforcement agencies honest, if there's no tax supported government police? The same thing that keeps the government police honest: the virtues of justice and integrity.

- Bill

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Post 76

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 4:51amSanction this postReply
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If I had to choose a government... Police would be replaced by private defense agencies and investigators, prisons would be privately run, most disputes would be handled through arbitration, and the only function of government would be as a final arbiter. And don't forget, no taxes!

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Post 77

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 5:08amSanction this postReply
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John, re Post 72: I don't agree that "... taxation is a moot point if you don't agree a monopoly government should exist." So maybe this is a pointless discussion. But my main problem with government is the idea of compulsory taxation. At any rate, you complain that I haven't responded to every single argument, but you haven't responded to all my arguments either. I guess our posts are too long? Question: You said on a different thread I believe, something to the effect that Libertarians were worthless/crazy/whatever. I don't remember the exact words. Anyways, if the ends do justify the means, as you've said they sometimes do (although I still don't get when they do and when they don't) then shouldn't associating with/voting for Libertarians be on your agenda since it will result in a smaller government? Also, you criticized Harry Browne. What do you know about Browne? Have you read any of his books? Just curious. You've quoted Bidinotto exclusively. He say: A) Taxation wouldn't be required, and B) Competing defense agencies wouldn't be outlawed. Do you agree/disagree? Are there any other sources besides Bidinotto you'd like to share? I'm more than willing to read them. But I don't really have a problem with his "government" if this is the case.


Post 78

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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No one has disputed that our government routinely violates the Constitution. The arguments against anarchism have hinged on the theory that we have a "weak" Constitution because of the general welfare clause. I read an interesting article recently by Walter Williams that addresses this.

Constitutionally ignorant people might argue that the Constitution's "general welfare" clause justifies today's actions by Congress. Here's what James Madison said: "If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." Thomas Jefferson echoed, in a letter to Pennsylvania Rep. Albert Gallatin, "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

James Madison explained the constitutional limits on federal power in Federalist Paper No. 45: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . [to] be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."

Here are my questions to you: Has our Constitution been amended to authorize federal spending on "objects of
benevolence"? Or, is it plain and simple constitutional contempt by Congress, the president, the courts and, worst of all, the American people? Or, am I being overly pessimistic and it's simply a matter of constitutional ignorance?


The last paragraph is especially troubling for me.
1. If constitutions can be amended to make formerly unconstitutional acts constitutional, what exactly is the point of a constitution.
2. If contempt on the part of Congress, President, the courts, or the people can render the constitution powerless, what exactly is the point of a constitution?
3. If ignorance on the part of Congress, President, the courts, or the people can render the constitution powerless, what exactly is the point of a constitution?

Ed, if you're still hanging around, you've said we can "fix" the Constitution by removing the general welfare clause. Williams seems to be of the opinion that the limits were already explicit. What do you think?


Post 79

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 6:02pmSanction this postReply
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Michael F. Dickey, if you're still perusing this thread, I'd like to hear your response to my post 74. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

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