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Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:19amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Raad, you write:

"Ayn Rand and the vast majority of objectivists are strongly on the minarchist side of the divide."

That is incorrect. Anyone who is on the anarcho-capitalist side of the divide is not an Objectivist. That does not mean they are a defective nor inferior mind. That does not mean they are morally flawed. It means that, in political philosophy, theirs is not the philosophy of Ayn Rand.

Did you mean to equivocate on meaning of the name Objectivist by not capitalizing the word?

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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Good point, Stephen! Also, Randy Barnett's book, Restoring the Lost Constitution (Princeton UP, 2004), pretty much achieves what the article asks for (although Randy is not an Objectivist). Also, Chapter 7 of my forthcoming Libertarianism Defended (Ashgate, 2006), contains an edited version of the following missive that is a way to understand government within the Objectivist framework of political philosophy:

A Positive Libertarian View of Government

 

            Success makes you a target.

            As libertarians make headway in getting their ideas aired and published, both liberals and conservatives have been taking potshots at the libertarian conception of government.[i]

            Conservatives Bill Kristol and David Frum have been especially eager to denigrate a libertarian idea of a government with properly circumscribed powers and scope. They complain that such a view is insufficiently "inspiring"—that citizens cannot rally around a conception of society in which government plays a strictly restricted role. They wonder how such a society would fare in the face of foreign enemies and how it could function as a world power. Governments must generate enough devotion, reverence and respect to garner the support needed to govern, they argue. They believe that a minimalist government, set forth as "a necessary evil" at best, cannot earn this reverence and thus has no chance of survival, let alone flourishing.

            But these critics lack a clear understanding, let alone full appreciation, of the libertarian view of government. In fact, libertarianism does have a positive, upbeat and frankly demanding view of government.

            The function of a proper government is to secure certain individual rights, among them the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; it is to safeguard these rights that governments are "instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." That is the libertarian view of government. It is also the view of the American Founders, and there can be no more venerable or inspiring heritage.[ii]

            The just powers of government are whatever powers are needed to secure the rights in question without their violation in the process. 

            Libertarians would do well to invoke the Declaration of Independence as their rallying cry against paternalistic conservatives who have no idea what they wish to conserve in the American political tradition. It is libertarians who want to preserve the Declaration's positive vision of government as the great, honorable, and properly understood guardian of our rights. The moral virtues of such a government are vigilance, valor, honor, and integrity. If politicians actually possessed these moral virtues in our time, would that not be inspiring? Would it not earn the respect of the people at large—perhaps even of Mr. Kristol and Mr. Frumm? Certainly the chances are greater that such a government could earn legitimate respect than could a government which meddles constantly in all of our affairs, with all the attendant mishaps that provoke so much contempt from the public, and all the corruption that comes with having embarked upon unjustified public policies. What many people hate about government is not its virtues but its vices. These vices arise from its lack of integrity, its failure to fulfill and stick to its appropriate duties.

            So-called "libertarian anarchists" insist that even such limited government amounts to a kind of tyranny. They reason that because even a limited government functions by law as the only agency of rights protection and adjudication within a given jurisdictional region, it amounts to a coercive monopoly. But a government that keeps to its role as rights protector within a given jurisdiction region is no more a coercive monopoly than is a department store that must be exited so as to reach its competitors. Within its own territory, the department store is a "monopoly," just like millions of other businesses. But since they do not prohibit either departure or the nearby presence of a competing store, they are not a coercive monopoly.[iii]

            Governments operate within particular spheres—"countries"—whose owners have consented at least implicitly to be governed by these institutions. Just across the border, another country with another government is free to exist as well; so long as emigration is possible, no coercive monopoly is involved. It is all akin to gated communities which one may leave at will, and the benefits of which one may enjoy so long as one pays one's way; although one would not, of course, be justified in demanding that one's home there be serviced by the owners of another gated community.

            So, then, does the libertarian provide us with an inspiring vision of a legal system?

            One should note, first of all, that it is reductionist to charge political thought with the mandate of forging a vision for all of society. Society is a huge and diverse group of individuals intertwined in innumerable complicated ways. These various individuals have diverse purposes; in their innumerable interactions they are united, optimally, by a common sense of civility, of respect for the rights of everyone. It is imperialistic to attempt to generalize the goals of one individual or group to others apart from the very general purposes of seeking to live a fulfilled, happy, honorable life in peaceful coexistence with others. That it acts to secure the right of its citizenry to do just this is part of what makes government an honorable institution, when clearly understood and uncorrupted.[iv]

            It seems to me that even libertarians who reject the very idea of government can support the limited conception of it I have outlined. After all, every libertarian is committed to some sort of institutional defense of individual rights, whether in the form of a "competing government," a defense agency, a justice agency or some other rights-protecting "firm." For most of us, this limited conception means some version of government as an institution dedicated to conscientiously guarding individual rights. 
            How could anyone seriously believe that a government that resists becoming coercive and that carries out its job in accordance with due process—the requirements of justice—cannot inspire the citizenry of the society in which it operates? Only those who mistakenly expect government to be something it should never become—a parental authority—could chastise advocates of limited government for failing to endorse a regime that functions more as nanny than protector of individual rights. The kind of respect and honor governments ought to expect from their citizens are probably akin to the respect and honor that referees or umpires would expect from everyone concerned with how a game is guided by its rule-keepers. What matters is honesty, integrity, professionalism, and dedication to outstanding service. Beyond this governments do not deserved to be cherished and, especially, subservience, which is what we may suspect Misters Kristol and Frumm are really hoping for.

 
Endnotes:

[i] Among libertarians there are those who consider themselves anarchists. Actually, this is misleading because these same libertarians also defend a legal system that provides, as they see it, all the justified functions and services of governments, only they are not monopolies. This, too, is somewhat confusing because while such legal systems are said to be “competing” with others, they are also said to be entirely capable of dealing with crime and the problem of “the court of last resort,” as well as the requisite military resistance to invasion or aggression against those who subscribe to the system (citizens).

                    For why this is really just a more rarified version of government limited to the use of retaliatory and punitive force—excluding all systematic coercive, initiated force—see, Tibor R. Machan, “Anarchism and Minarchism, A Rapprochement,” Journal des Economists et des Estudes Humaines, Vol. 14, No. 4 (December 2002), pp. 569-588. (This essays is a Chapter in the present book!)


[ii] That the Founders did advance the rudiments of a libertarian legal order is not fully appreciated, given how their revolutionary political achievements were by no means complete, having, for example, left slavery, confiscatory taxation, and other statist measures in place. See, Tibor R. Machan, ed., Individual Rights Reconsidered: Are the truths of the U.S. Declaration of Independence lasting? (Stanford, CA: Hoover Institution Press, 2001), especially the essay by Ronald Hamowy.


[iii] For the elaboration of the nature of a constitution of such a legal order, see op. cit., Barnett, Restoring the lost constitution.


[iv] Some have proposed what might be called “the cricket test”—or, depending on which country is in question, “the baseball” or “the soccer” test—whereby a loyal citizen would need to also root for that country’s sports teams in international competitions. Absent such rooting, citizens are then deemed to be disloyal. Yet, this is a mistake, since in matters of culture many citizens take sides on the basis of familiarity, tradition, fraternity. The real test is wherein lie the expectations of being treated justly as citizens, that is, persons with interest in proper legal adjudication.




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Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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That is incorrect. Anyone who is on the anarcho-capitalist side of the divide is not an Objectivist.
Stephen is correct. Objecitivism is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agreement with Rand. Therefore, if Rand had one million opinions and you only agree with 999,999 of them, you are not an Objectivist. You don't need to think about anything. Rand will lead the way. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agreement is the only moral way to go. Anything less is evil.


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Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:02amSanction this postReply
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Chris Baker writes:

"Stephen is correct. Objecitivism is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agreement with Rand. Therefore, if Rand had one million opinions and you only agree with 999,999 of them, you are not an Objectivist. You don't need to think about anything. Rand will lead the way. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agreement is the only moral way to go. Anything less is evil."

This is the kind of logiccal disconnect that I hate about most discussions on ROR.

Of course this has nothing to do with what Stephen was saying. Objectivism is the name given to the body of thought outlined by Ayn Rand. If you don't agree with one or more parts, then you are not in full agreement with that philosophical system and should not properly call yourself an Objectivist. No where here is there even the smallest hint that one should not think for oneself or that one should be a blind follower of Rand or anyone else. The point is that if you want to disagree with any of Objectivism go right ahead. Just don't misrepresent Rand by calling yourself an Objectivist (i.e., a representative of the Objectivist philosophical system) while expounding ideas that are in contradiction to Rand's formulation. To do this would be a form of fraud and that would be evil, but to think for oneself and present one's ideas as one's own is not.

Chris, I suggest that you ask yourself how and why you so easily get from Stephen's benign statement to the one you formulate above? You are making a huge and unwarranted leap here in your thinking and I believe you would find it beneficial to discover the causes of this.

Regards,
--
Jeff

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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Interesting.  On the one hand, you claim a logical disconnect, then turn around and provide the connection - then turn again and make yourself the disconnect.  So long as one holds Politics to be 'the art and science of rule', there will always be disagreements with the nature of and best kind of rule.  Until one recognises the only moral rule is to oneself, and that the only proper social system is that of the Trader, not the Ruler, and that THAT is the Objective view of existence, there will forever be the chastizing and the claiming "You are..." or "You are NOT.." an Objectivist.

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
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I have two comments:

To say that one has to agree with Ayn Rand 100% to be an objectivist seems to me to be too stringent a criterion.  Suppose that one statement that Ayn Rand wrote contradicts another statement that she wrote.  Then to be an objectivist would be to accept a contradiction.  If that's your criteria, then so be it, but it means that there can be no debate among objectivists about anything she said, because one of the debaters could not call himself an objectivist.  So 'objectivist' would be a useless word, because it would indicate adherence to a person rather than truth. 

So if I believe in 99% of what she said but not 1% because I find it wrong on the basis of reason and reality, then what should I call myself?

I also want to respond to this statement: "Governments operate within particular spheres—"countries"—whose owners have consented at least implicitly to be governed by these institutions." 
 
When did I consent to be governed by the oppressive entity we call the US government?  Even if the US government were legitimate, the consenting process happened 200 years ago.  Even the founding fathers would not entirely agree with you.  Thomas Jefferson thought that states should be allowed to leave the union!  And if the 10000 people who constitute a state can leave, why can't I leave on my own and with my property?  There is no such thing as a 'right' that belongs to a collective but not an individual. 


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Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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GoCapitalism, Chris, Raymond et al; to Objectivists, or at least most of them including myself, anarcho-capitalism is not a viable system. It is nothing short of the destruction of liberty. There's is nothing more anti-rights than anarchism in any form. It is considered a settled issue. Rand has done a superb job of explaining this in Capitalism:The Unknown Ideal. And Robert Bidinotto has done a superb job as well dispelling the myth of anarcho-capitalism.

Why is the same crap brought up time after time and how is it allowed to be posted on this forum as an article? It's like debating whether god exists to a bunch of theists on an atheist forum. At least this article should be posted in the dissent section. But allow me to address a few points Raymond has brought up:

Objectivists, by supporting the US constitution, indirectly support placing this power in the hands of the majority: an elected president is commander in chief, an elected legislature makes the laws, and a supreme court appointed by an elected president interprets the laws. But what is so great about a majority?


The US constitution is set up to fragment power and distribute it to many groups. There is no majority rule in the US. The states each have rights and their own powers of which the federal government cannot take away. The President is elected not by simple majority popular vote but by a complex electoral system that has yielded on occasion a minority winner. The three branches of government have checks and balances on each other. Congress is broken up into two bodies, one with two Senators from each state with one equal vote, the other with Representatives based on a state's population. Each has had it's gridlock with each other. The President can veto a bill from Congress, the Congress can override and the Judicial branch can nullify a law passed. It's all a completely diffused system of power, to say it's based on majority rule is a sophmoric analysis of American government at best. Where did you get that from? Have you read the Constitution? It pretty much guarantees shared power between the majority and minority. There is no majority rule in this country. It's a myth to which Raymond has apparently extended by writing this article.

Even administrators of a limited government have decisions to make, and whenever there are decisions and choices, they can be made incorrectly. Government officials in a monopoly government can send troops to fight unjust wars. They can punish criminals excessively. They can unintentionally punish innocent civilians for the crimes of others. There is no way to ensure that decisions are always made correctly.


This somehow implies government is a zero-sum game. If it cannot yield the perfect results of infallibility, it must therefore be ineffective and thrown out. To use a proverb, anarcho-capitalists believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water. But it's not a reasoned argument at all. Attaining 100% success should not be the only goal. Attaing 80% success is better than zero! It ignores the alternative, no government. Where there is no final arbiter and brute force rules over men.

Another problem with establishing a monopoly government is that one must define the territory over which this government has exclusive authority. How large or small should this territory be? Should there be one government over the entire world? One over the entire US? One over each state? One over each city? Or one over every 200 people?


I'm sorry I didn't know this was a problem? It would depend on the needs of the individuals. Is there a large threat of invasion from a foreign army? Indeed we have seen governments form to meet this demand. NATO, although not a single government, the concept is the same. The threat of the Soviet Union was large enough to warrant a military alliance of many democratic nations. So what size, and which geographical area should a government have a monopoly of force over largely depends on the needs and demands of the individuals.

To really understand this problem, let’s examine a hypothetical example, Ayn Rand style. Suppose persons A, B and C have a dispute over a property in New York City. Suppose that the government of New York City sides with person A, the New York State government sides with person B, and the US federal government sides with person C. Which one should have the authority? Depending on the size of the territory governed, the decision would be different.


LOL, that's funny because you say this as if this doesn't happen now and there is no due process to figure these things out now? We have three tiers of laws (going back to not one government agency having all the power) local, state and federal. It would largely depend on the dispute. If it's only over property, that purview falls to the state of New York or the city. Each having it's own juridiction over certain types of disputes. Indeed, if there is a dispute amongst two governments, e.g. state and federal, the matter is settle in the third branch of government, the judicial branch.

So I'm not sure where this problem is you speak of?

Certainly it cannot be the desire to do a good job, as it is in other professions, because a good job in this case would involve more relaxation than anything else. Any self-interested hard worker would not find such a job appealing at all. So the only people who would take such jobs would be the lazy and the power-hungry (i.e., the altruistic).


This to me is where the Constitution falls short. There ought to have been term limits for all Congressmen. It would lessen the opportunity for lazy power-hungry politicians to take power. But that's a red herring. The constitution designed government so that the power-hungry would never get full power and constantly fight each other over it and presumably never win. And again, what would be the alternative? No government? Anarchy? Which has been discussed enough on this forum.



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Monday, August 14, 2006 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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Some might find my treatment of this issue of some interest. It is available here:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:egn2cl1OD2IJ:www.ieeh.asso.fr/ie/Us/abstracts/Vol12-n4/MachanGB.htm+Anarchism+and+Minarchism&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5


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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
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This somehow implies government is a zero-sum game. If it cannot yield the perfect results of infallibility, it must therefore be ineffective and thrown out.
Isn't this your argument against free-market anarchism?


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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 5:59amSanction this postReply
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There ought to have been term limits for all Congressmen.
Studies have shown that this would make a difference. REASON pointed out years ago that the longer one stays in, the more likely he is to vote for big government.


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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan wrote in respone to what I wrote:

This somehow implies government is a zero-sum game. If it cannot yield the perfect results of infallibility, it must therefore be ineffective and thrown out.

Isn't this your argument against free-market anarchism?


Jonathan I don't follow you here?

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Post 11

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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John, my point was, you criticize those who criticize government for being imperfect. You say, government is not zero-sum, and just because it is not perfect, it should not be thrown out. But most of the arguments I've read against market anarchism hinge on the fact that it is imperfect, and cannot guarantee everyone's individual rights and liberty. If you are admitting that an imperfect system is not a reason for dismissal, then on what grounds do you hold anarcho-capitalism to be inferior. Anarchism cannot prevent all crimes, but neither can government, so what makes government better?

Why is the same crap brought up time after time and how is it allowed to be posted on this forum as an article? It's like debating whether god exists to a bunch of theists on an atheist forum.
As I noted before, I'm relatively new to the forum. Perhaps you've debated this before and consider the matter settled, but I haven't, and don't.

Stephen wrote:

That is incorrect. Anyone who is on the anarcho-capitalist side of the divide is not an Objectivist. That does not mean they are a defective nor inferior mind. That does not mean they are morally flawed. It means that, in political philosophy, theirs is not the philosophy of Ayn Rand.
Roger Bissel wrote an excellent article on this subject. To quote:

Objectivism and Determinism
by Roger E. Bissell

Who qualifies as an Objectivist? I think that’s a legitimate question, but I also think that it’s too easy to pick one’s own pet list of views that can qualify one as being or not being an Objectivist. (E.g., Rand’s views on a woman President, on homosexuality, on anarchism vs. limited government in politics, on survival vs. flourishing in ethics, etc.) Nathaniel Branden has pointed out (correctly, in my opinion, as evidenced by comments Rand made in her journals) that Rand held a “minimalist” view of the Objectivist metaphysics. Well, I think that what qualifies a person as “Objectivist” should also be termed most generally and succinctly. Apparently Rand agreed with this, also.
 
For instance, in “About the Author” in the appendix to Atlas Shrugged, Rand said, “My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.” Do you agree with that? Then you agree with Rand’s written statement of the essence of her philosophy. Wouldn’t that mean that you are, in essence, an Objectivist?
 
Or, at the sales conference at Random House, preceding the publication of Atlas Shrugged, Rand presented the essence of her philosophy “while standing on one foot.” She said: “1. Metaphysics: Objective Reality (‘Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed’ or ‘Wishing won’t make it so.’) 2. Epistemology: Reason (‘You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.’) 3. Ethics: Self-Interest (‘Man is an end in himself.’) 4. Politics: Capitalism (‘Give me liberty or give me death.’)” Do you agree with these principles? Then you agree with Rand’s verbal statement of the essence of her philosophy. Wouldn’t that mean that you are, in essence, an Objectivist?
 
Later, in 1962, in her column “Introducing Objectivism,” Rand gave “the briefest summary” of her philosophy: “1. Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man's feelings, wishes, hopes or fears. 2. Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival. 3. Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life. 4. The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.” Do you agree with Rand’s summary of her philosophy? If so, aren’t you an Objectivist?
  
Finally, in “Brief Summary” (1971), Rand said: “If one recognizes the supremacy of reason and applies it consistently, all the rest [e.g., capitalism and egoism] follows. This—the supremacy of reason—was, is and will be the primary concern of my work, and the essence of Objectivism.” Do you agree with this statement about the supremacy and consistent application of reason? Then you agree with Rand on the essence of Objectivism. Are you then an Objectivist?

 
Notice that as for politics, Rand only mentions laissez-faire capitalism, which can exist under anarchism.
 
So to summarize, I do consider myself an Objectivist, and I am not convinced that anarchism is anathema to Objectivism. In fact, as I've mentioned before, I consider Rand's own vision of limited government to be anarchist at heart. As this "government" would not have the ability to forcefully tax its citizens, I do not consider it to be a government.
 

From Harry Browne's book "Why Government Doesn't Work":
 
"What separates government from the rest of society, isn't its size, its disregard for profit, its foresight, or its scope. The distinctive feature of government is coercion - the threat of force and the use of force to win obedience."






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Post 12

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan wrote:

John, my point was, you criticize those who criticize government for being imperfect. You say, government is not zero-sum, and just because it is not perfect, it should not be thrown out. But most of the arguments I've read against market anarchism hinge on the fact that it is imperfect, and cannot guarantee everyone's individual rights and liberty. If you are admitting that an imperfect system is not a reason for dismissal, then on what grounds do you hold anarcho-capitalism to be inferior. Anarchism cannot prevent all crimes, but neither can government, so what makes government better?


Ok I understand what you mean now. But you misunderstand what I was trying to convey. Yes both systems are not zero-sum, but you must make a comparative analysis to the two. The Economist that I am always looks at life as what is the alternative? Which choice produces the best results? Both are not equal to success or establishing justice. It is intellectually dishonest therefore when an anarcho-capitalist points to imperfections on how justice is administered as reason for destroying the entire system. It's not a reasoned argument because justice and freedom is not a zero-sum game. It's a matter of alternatives, what are the choices and what system would better yield justice, peace and tranquility? I maintain that anarcho-capitalism taken to its logical conclusion can only lead to the total destruction of rights and liberty. It can only lead to a system where brute force is ruled over men. Rather than hash out everything again, check out Robert Bidinotto's essays on the subject matter. Also I believe in Rand's book "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" she explains the role of government and why they must have a monopoly on the use of force. Also check out Peter Schwart'z essay "Libertarianism: The Pervision of Liberty"

And we don't have to look far for examples of anarchism in reality and see what it has produced. The less law and order a society has, the less peaceful it is. The less that people's rights are protected. Somalia, to a lesser extent Russia, even Lebanon is in a state of anarchy, two competing governments with their own army in the same geographical areas has produced misery for the Lebanese. So is Iraq, which is a nation of competing militias, even take the wild west of America's past history where much of the United States had a break down of law and order, where crime was settled by a lynch mob and vigilantes, not by any objective standards of justice.

To deny this reality of anarchism just boggles my mind. I can't explain the belief in anarchism other than it has become religious dogma.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ok I understand what you mean now. But you misunderstand what I was trying to convey. Yes both systems are not zero-sum, but you must make a comparative analysis to the two. The Economist that I am always looks at life as what is the alternative? Which choice produces the best results? Both are not equal to success or establishing justice. It is intellectually dishonest therefore when an anarcho-capitalist points to imperfections on how justice is administered as reason for destroying the entire system. It's not a reasoned argument because justice and freedom is not a zero-sum game. It's a matter of alternatives, what are the choices and what system would better yield justice, peace and tranquility?

Then we are in agreement here. Capitalism is one of the only Rand books that I haven't read, and its been awhile since I read Schwarz's essay, but I will revisit both of them. More on this later....


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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 4:53amSanction this postReply
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...what system would better yield justice, peace and tranquility?
Right, I'm just not convinced that government would. John, I'd like to hear your take on my quote from Browne. I just don't see a significant difference between Rand's ideal "government" and anarchism. Thanks.


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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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I think the quote you made from Bissel quoting Rand says a lot.

The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders


You can't have a government and anarchy at the same time. If we understand what anarchy is, it is defined as the breakdown of law and order, the disentegration of a unified government of codified laws. Typical characteristics of anarchy include competing militias operating in the same area. This is civil war, and anarchy typically leads to the ultimate destruction of liberty. There can be only one army, one police, one set of laws over a geographical area. And as far as Browne's quote I'm not terribly impressed by it. When he says "The distinctive feature of government is coercion - the threat of force and the use of force to win obedience." is nothing but an equivocation between coercive force for the purpose of retaliation and the use of coercive force as an initiation of it. I would ask Browne "to whom is the government winning obedience over?" Criminals? Foreign invaders? Those who would fraud, steal, kill, and use any other kind of initiation of force? Clearly he doesn't make this important distinction.

When a government establishes an objective code of laws, then the use of force by government to protect individual rights cannot be looked at as an initiation of force. When the government as Rand says "uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use" then coercion in a retaliatory sense is not evil by any means, but is in fact good! So it is good when a just government uses coercive force to insure justice, i.e. the protection of our rights.


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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 9:21amSanction this postReply
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I think you are missing the point that Browne was making (which is easy to do since the quote was provided out of context). The coercion that Browne is speaking of is taxation, coercive funding if you will. How would this ideal Objectivist government be funded? Almost every Objectivist I know, Rand included, held that government funding had to be voluntary. Therefore, by this definition, it's not really a government.

One suggestion I've heard is that the government be funded by user fees, i.e. if you need a service that government provides, you pay for it. How is this different from free-market anarchism? I don't see that it is.

And we don't have to look far for examples of anarchism in reality and see what it has produced. The less law and order a society has, the less peaceful it is. The less that people's rights are protected. Somalia, to a lesser extent Russia, even Lebanon is in a state of anarchy, two competing governments with their own army in the same geographical areas has produced misery for the Lebanese.

Government could not stop the civil war that raged through this country in the 1860's, just as it cannot stop the civil war occurring in Iraq. A constitution is nothing more than a piece of paper. It cannot stop anyone from doing anything. It's power and success lie in the fact that the vast majority of people believe in the ideas that are on that piece of paper. In America, the vast majority do, and (most) everything is fine. In Iraq, they don't. What is that piece of paper accoomplishing over there? Tell me, why do you think that people would abandon those ideas if there wasn't a piece of paper that "claimed" to guarantee this right or that (although it can't)?


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Post 17

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan wrote:

I think you are missing the point that Browne was making (which is easy to do since the quote was provided out of context). The coercion that Browne is speaking of is taxation, coercive funding if you will. How would this ideal Objectivist government be funded? Almost every Objectivist I know, Rand included, held that government funding had to be voluntary.


I don't know if voluntary funding would work, there is a problem of what economists refer to as the free rider problem. If others are contributing to government why should I for example contribute? Perhaps voluntary contributions would be enough. We can't know unless something like this is implemented by I suspect it wouldn't work well. But if taxation is for the protection of individual rights, and as long as there is representation with this taxation, I don't see how this is coercion. Taxation without representation would be coercive force.

Almost every Objectivist I know, Rand included, held that government funding had to be voluntary. Therefore, by this definition, it's not really a government.


I don't follow you here. What would you call it then? If it's a governing body that passes laws and insures the protection of individual rights, then I'm pretty sure people refer to this as the definition of government. I don't think it matters to the definition how it is funded.

One suggestion I've heard is that the government be funded by user fees, i.e. if you need a service that government provides, you pay for it. How is this different from free-market anarchism? I don't see that it is.



Perhaps this makes more sense in civil disputes over contracts, but when does a victim of rape and the assailant pay a fee to the government? When did they ever enter into a contract with each other? Robert Bidinotto has done a superb job of explaining in more depth on this issue, check it out here:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0910.shtml#1

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0910_1.shtml#22

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0910_3.shtml#79


Indeed if both parties enter into a contract and choose their own final arbiter to which they agree to adhere to that decision, then so be it. But what if one party doesn't agree on the arbiter's decision? Says to hell with him and leaves with the disputed money. You would have to use coercive force to stop him. In fact this arbiter would have to forcibly take this individuals money (sounds like taxation to me) so you have resorted to taxation anyways. Since both parties paid for this arbiter, and the arbiter has the power to use force, how is this not a tax? So if an arbiter has this power, it is considered a government. But what if there are multiple arbiters each with the power to use force? So if our party that disagrees with the arbiters decision, goes to another arbiter, and hires them to protect him from the coercive initiation of force of the prior arbiter, we have civil war. So there can only be one final arbiter, i.e. government. In fact this is a common function in our society today over civil disputes. People do go to arbitration all the time before going to court. When you settle out of court, you are using an arbiter prior to going to the final step of arbitration, i.e. government or the court. Baseball players and owners enter into arbitration all the time. But the agreement made by this prior step to arbitration is backed up by the use of force. That is if one party decides to break his end of the arbitration settlement, then the final arbiter uses force to ensure the breachee adheres to the original agreement. Arbitration only works if there is a threat of force to enforce that decision.

But the initiation of force is not just relegated to trade. It includes violent coercion by those who have no interest in contracts or paying a user fee. They simply take what they want.

Government could not stop the civil war that raged through this country in the 1860's


Jonathan I find this statement perplexing when the government was the one that ended the civil war in 1865. Indeed this is a clear example where in a state of anarchy, one side had to win. The one with the biggest guns, the biggest army, i.e. the North won. And since the South had slaves, they had no moral right to that kind of government anyways.

A constitution is nothing more than a piece of paper. It cannot stop anyone from doing anything. It's power and success lie in the fact that the vast majority of people believe in the ideas that are on that piece of paper.


Jonathan I agree with this, but what does this have to do with what we're talking about here? Everyone clearly does not agree with these ideas, some people in this country rob, steal, fraud, rape, kill, and maim their fellow citizens. What do you do with them? How do you stop them from disturbing the peace? It only takes the actions of a few thugs to take a country and descend it into anarchy. If they are not stopped any two-bit dictator with enough guns and large enough militia can oppress an entire nation. We have been under the threat of foreign invaders, this is something that is real, what do you do about that? There are plenty of hostile nations in this world that would love to invade us if they had the power. An idea or a piece of paper is certainly not going to stop them, so how do you remedy this problem? How do you stop these people who clearly do not agree with our ideas? Not to mention not everyone agrees with each other 100% on what an objective code of justice should look like.

Rational men can have disagreements when both are operating from different sets of data. In fact why do men all the time enter into contracts, and disputes arise? Companies enter into contracts all the time and disputes come up. That's why you have a written contract to begin with, so that an arbiter can make a decision on which party is wrong. I am currently in a lawsuit with a real estate developer. I'm pretty sure the guy I'm suing agrees mostly with the ideals enumerated in the constitution as well as I do. But he doesn't agree with me that the land he sold me was not fit for construction while I maintain it was not. This has nothing to do with an agreement on an idealogy, this is a disagreement on what the facts of reality are. How do we settle our dispute? An arbiter will settle it. And if I win the government will force the real estate developer to pay me back some money that I believe is rightfully mine whereas he believes it is not.

Tell me, why do you think that people would abandon those ideas if there wasn't a piece of paper that "claimed" to guarantee this right or that (although it can't)?


The paper alone doesn't do anything. A paper is not a police force or an army, it's not a person so of course it doesn't ultimately guarantee anything. But this is a red herring. A constitution is a contract between individuals and their government. It is a guide to how government is to be structured, to how taxes are to be collected to fund the police, courts, etc, it is a guide to what the objective standard of due process should look like, to ensure a reasonable level of ongoing success. So that one individual or group of individuals in government do not have the opportunity to take too much power.













Post 18

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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I want to make a correction, I originally said:

Arbitration only works if there is a threat of force to enforce that decision.


And this is not necessarily always true. It is possible for people to voluntarily adhere to an arbitration settlement without the threat of force. Only that there are some individuals who would be willing not to adhere to an arbitration settlement if there is no threat of force behind it.

And there is plenty of evidence for this. For example my business sued a bank over a bank loan agreement on an interest rate. After we had a written agreement over this interest rate the bank decided it wasn't a good deal for them and reneged on the contract. To which we protested that we had a written agreement, they said to us and I kid you not "good luck on getting your interest rate. You're going to have to spend a lot of money on attorney's fee and we have better lawyers, it's not worth it for you"

We eventually took their dare and won a settlement. Do you think an unscrupulous piece of shit like this banker would not hesitate to thumb his nose at an arbiter who decided on my behalf if there was no threat of force behind that decision?

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Post 19

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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John, I do want to continue this conversation, but first I'd like to know how you justify taxation? I don't think I've ever heard any Objectivist defend taxes.
But if taxation is for the protection of individual rights, and as long as there is representation with this taxation, I don't see how this is coercion.
For the same reason that I view quotas as an unjust version of the collectivist mentality, so too is the idea that a politician can somehow "represent" me (and thousand of others). And as for not considering taxation coercion, consider: What if I don't want to pay for the services of the publicly funded police department (let's say I consider them inept and ineffective). What happens if I choose not to pay my taxes, and instead engage a private security force to defend my property? I will be hauled off to jail at gunpoint. How is that not coercion?

(Edited by Jonathan Fauth on 8/16, 1:59pm)


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