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Post 80

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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In the context of the times, they were explicitly limited - but the term 'general welfare' has of its accord become a vagueness never anticipated.... in other words, all terms limiting power MUST be, as much as possible, specific and unambiguous....

Post 81

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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So would you spport removing the term "general welfare" and do you think that would make a considerable difference? I happen to think the larger problem is ignorance among the general populace (population?). I suspect teh average American is not even aware that the term is in there.

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Post 82

Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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John said:

Let's use some specifics. You and I are neighbors. You decide you want to build a tool shed that's very close to my property. You also keep very corrosive chemicals in the tool shed. I have a garden on my property quite close to the location of your tool shed on your property. My garden plants start dying. I accuse you of killing my garden because of your tool shed and the chemicals you store in there are seeping into the ground and into my proporty. Thus killing anything that grows on mine. Problem is, you have ACME Police and Courts as your protection firm. I have a different agency that I have hired.


Am I to assume that you are implying my firm would attempt to shield me from prosecution? I think that's an unrealistic situation, and here's why... I cannot fathom that it would be practical or profitable for a defense agency to offer protection against a legitimate complaint. Think about insurance companies now. My auto insurer offers protection if I accidentally rear-end somebody. Now lets say I go out and intentionally ram my car into someone. They won't pay out. Like my health insurer, they get my money every month, whether or not they provide a service for me. So it's actually in their best interests to act as sparingly as possible. Of course, they have to act on my legitimate claims, otherwise they would lose all credibility not to mention face prosecution for fraud and breach of contract. See where I'm going? Your scenario automatically assumes that just because two different agencies exist, they will automatically conflict. But yet people with different insurance agencies get in accidents all the time, and claims still get filed without the courts getting involved. What do you think? 


Post 83

Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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I'll make one last attempt to revive this thread. I read an article recently that makes the same points I was trying to make in post 74. Since I was not understood, perhaps another perspective will work beter.

Benjamin R. Tucker - The Bill for Justice: Who Should Pay It?

Liberty, Vol. 9, No. 49, Saturday, March 24, 1894, Whole No. 283

My friend Yarros has an article in favor of free justice in the February number of the "American Journal of Politics." The truth is that there never can be any justice except that which is free. The moment that justice must be paid for by the victim of injustice it becomes itself injustice. But it also becomes injustice the moment that it is paid for by any one else, except the doer of the injustice. The cost of justice can be justly paid only by the invader. In cases where he cannot be made to pay, injustice is a necessity.

How the consequent burden shall be borne is a matter for agreement solely. If B and C agree that, whenever either is wronged by A, they will bear equally the cost of attempting to force A to right the wrong in case that attempt fails, why, well and good! But, unless B and C do so agree, it is unjust for either of them, when wronged by A, to impose any part of the burden upon the other. The question of the free administration of justice can be settled only by the abolition of compulsory taxation. When associations for the administration of justice are voluntary and supported entirely by voluntary contributions (except so far as they are supported by the compulsory contributions of the criminals), free administration of justice will be adopted if it is found to be expedient; but so will free cabs, free schools, and free groceries, if these, under liberty, are found to be expedient. In a condition of Anarchy free schools may be as good as free administration of justice; in a condition of Archy free administration of justice is certainly as indefensible as free education. In the latter case it is compulsory cooperation for defense, to which all Anarchists must object.

Whether each shall pay for what he gets, or whether each shall help himself out of the heap, as the Kropotkinians say, is a question of expediency, provided all is voluntary. Generally speaking, the specific plan is better than the communistic; but there are exceptions to the rule. The administration of justice may or may not be one of them. One thing, however, is sure, - that in all cases the effort should be to impose all the cost of repairing the wrong upon the doer of the wrong. This alone is real justice, and of course such justice is necessarily free.

 

 



Post 84

Monday, October 2, 2006 - 2:36amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan wrote:

Am I to assume that you are implying my firm would attempt to shield me from prosecution? I think that's an unrealistic situation, and here's why... I cannot fathom that it would be practical or profitable for a defense agency to offer protection against a legitimate complaint. Think about insurance companies now. My auto insurer offers protection if I accidentally rear-end somebody. Now lets say I go out and intentionally ram my car into someone. They won't pay out. Like my health insurer, they get my money every month, whether or not they provide a service for me. So it's actually in their best interests to act as sparingly as possible. Of course, they have to act on my legitimate claims, otherwise they would lose all credibility not to mention face prosecution for fraud and breach of contract. See where I'm going? Your scenario automatically assumes that just because two different agencies exist, they will automatically conflict. But yet people with different insurance agencies get in accidents all the time, and claims still get filed without the courts getting involved. What do you think?


What I think Jonathan is I'm surprised you still don't get it. You say:

Am I to assume that you are implying my firm would attempt to shield me from prosecution? I think that's an unrealistic situation, and here's why... I cannot fathom that it would be practical or profitable for a defense agency to offer protection against a legitimate complaint.


I don't understand why you can't fathom that and the insurance analogy is a non-sequiter. Who exactly decides what is or isn't a legitimate claim? And why wouldn't it be profitable? As long as you had money, what defense agency would turn down your money to shield you from prosecution?(as if there is such a thing as "prosecution" in a state of anarchy) Especially if said defense agency had the biggest amount of guns and could intimidate the other defense agency to back down. Do you see where I'm getting at? Let's use the analogy of another product as a defense agency and make the comparison of which company is more wealthy and thus can afford more weapons and a larger army. Say Coca-Cola is a defense agency, and its competitor is Moxie Cola. Ok so who intimidates who into complying with a client's decision? If your Moxie would you want to get on Coca-Cola's bad side? This is what anarchism is, law of the jungle.

Of course, they have to act on my legitimate claims, otherwise they would lose all credibility not to mention face prosecution for fraud and breach of contract


And how do you propose you do this without a final arbiter? How exactly do you prosecute? And why on earth would the insurance agency ever bother with adhering to the decision made in your favor? They wouldn't.

Your scenario automatically assumes that just because two different agencies exist, they will automatically conflict.


It is a guarantee there will always be conflicts, not that there's a guarantee each transaction will result in conflict. Understand the difference? Have you never had to go to court over a civil matter? I have had to settle out of court for contract disputes twice already in my life. I guess you have yet to have experienced getting ripped off thousands of dollars. I'm not talking about some candy machine ripping you off 50 cents here.

But yet people with different insurance agencies get in accidents all the time, and claims still get filed without the courts getting involved. What do you think?


Yes I described this scenario before and explained that many times private arbitration works just fine and is in fact done all the time. But that is because private arbitration involves a contract where both parties agree to the arbiter's decision. If one is in breach a final arbiter, i.e. government steps in and enforces the ruling. Like any kind of arbitration, there is always the possibility that one party wishes to appeal such a decision if they feel the decision was unjust. So you appeal. Then what happens? Are we to say there's never a final step to this arbitration? The reason why private arbitration works so well is because both parties enter into an enforceable contract of arbitration, that is if one party breaches the decision made by the arbiter they know that a final arbiter, i.e. government (a judge and a court of law) with its monopoly on the use of force, will step in and enforce the previous arbiter's decision. See where I'm going? You still can't get around the fact there needs to be one sole final arbiter.

And in fact, private arbitration does in many cases have to lead to a government court because one party breached the previous arbiter's decision. Insurance companies go to court with each other ALL THE TIME because one disagrees with the other a legitimate complaint was filed. Now do you honestly think this has never happened or would you like me to cite actual court cases of insurance agencies duking it out for their clients in a court of law? As we speak there are thousands of courts cases just like this right now where one insurance agency is trying to shield their client from a claim. How do you square with that reality? You think insurance agencies always agree on what is a legitimate claim and always go to private arbitration to settle disputes?

Is there anything more that really needs to be said?
(Edited by John Armaos
on 10/02, 2:40am)


Post 85

Tuesday, October 3, 2006 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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What I think Jonathan is I'm surprised you still don't get it.

 So sorry to disappoint you ;-)!  

I don't understand why you can't fathom that and the insurance analogy is a non-sequiter.

 How is it a non-sequiter?

 

And why wouldn't it be profitable?

 

Well, I already answered that, and you haven’t offered objections to anything specific. You’re argument amounts to “Nuh-uh! No it wouldn’t!” without ever addressing any points I made. But I will repeat myself, because I enjoy this discussion. Like insurance companies, the agency I’m talking about gets paid a monthly fee whether or not their services are required. So tell me, since you seem to be a shrewd businessman, why would it be in their best interests to act on my behalf in a situation where I am clearly wrong? The only reason it would, is if there was a huge demand for “polluter protection” services. But guess what; if there was such a demand, it would be filled even with a monopoly government around. Think about it, drugs are illegal, and yet there is an abundant supply of them. This is true even in countries that execute drug dealers. Where there is a demand, there will be a supply.

 

Say Coca-Cola is a defense agency, and its competitor is Moxie Cola. Ok so who intimidates who into complying with a client's decision? If your Moxie would you want to get on Coca-Cola's bad side?

 

I don’t really understand what your question is.

 

This is what anarchism is, law of the jungle.

 

Here’s something for you to consider. Since anarchy is defined as “without a ruler”, our own government is an example of anarchy. Is there a monopoly final arbiter that controls our government? No there is not. Is our government a bunch of savages only adhering to the law of the jungle? Does the senate get things passed only because they have more guns then the executive branch?

 

But that is because private arbitration involves a contract where both parties agree to the arbiter's decision. If one is in breach a final arbiter, i.e. government steps in and enforces the ruling.

 

Ok, say one party decides to not to abide by the ruling. Do you think anyone will ever want to do business with them again? I can’t comment on every single detail of this hypothetical anarchist society, but I can surmise that in a situation like this, companies would arise that rated the “trustworthiness” of businesses much like credit rating companies do now. Another option: in my business we are often required to bond jobs that we do. My company has a $40 million bonding capability. Say we agree to do a job for $1 million. If we don’t come through, the bonding company will ensure that the client is compensated.

 

You still can't get around the fact there needs to be one sole final arbiter.

 

And how does a monopoly government gain that privilege of becoming the “sole final arbiter”? By what authority do they enforce their will on people?

 

Now do you honestly think this has never happened or would you like me to cite actual court cases of insurance agencies duking it out for their clients in a court of law?

 

I don’t doubt that it has happened, but in order to properly comment, I would need to know the context of the situation. Case citations would be helpful, thanks. One last thing, you’ve criticized my contention that the majority can enforce their will on the minority (and I don’t see our checks and balances as impeding this, they are more of a speed bump). If that is not true, then that means the minority can enforce their will on the majority. Right? It has to be one or the other, doesn’t it?


Post 86

Wednesday, October 4, 2006 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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John said:
You still can't get around the fact there needs to be one sole final arbiter.
Consider the following: I'm walking home one night when I am suddenly accosted by a thug who attempts to assault and rob me. Am I allowed to defend myself?

It's a hypothetical question; I know you would advocate I have a right to defend myself. But isn't this an example of anarchy? There is no third party (government) around to provide justice or enforce its will.

Ask yourself, what is the principle behind the idea that I am allowed to defend myself? If it is ridiculous to think that government has the privelege of preventing me from defending myself (ie ensuring justice), and it most certainly is, then it is equally ridiculous to think that government has any right to prevent anyone else from ensuring justice; it is an injustice.


Post 87

Wednesday, October 4, 2006 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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Keeping along the same lines as my previous post; it has been said before, but it's worth repeating. If there were a just government, there would be no anarchists.

Post 88

Wednesday, October 4, 2006 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
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It seems to me as if you are under the impression that retaliatory force would not be allowed in an anarchist society? As far as your concerns about companies not abiding by an arbiters decision, why wouldn't the arbiter enforce that decision?

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