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Post 0

Monday, August 20, 2007 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:
     Oh-h-h, Great Ishtar...(sigh)...Not A-N-O-T-H-E-R one on 'this' subject!

     Interesting refs re Aristotle though. Boy, does this subject go back a ways! 'Relativists', huh?

LLAP
J:D


Post 1

Monday, August 20, 2007 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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     I must add one comment, though: a 'determinist' of any variation will not deal with the idea that, all said and done, they mean PRE-determined 'choices' (oxymoronic idea in my view), hence, even 'compatibilism' has blinders re its view of self-'justification'/explanation for the fundamental territory of decision-making argued about. Yes, some (derivative subject) 'decisions' are pre-determined (more accurately, 'allowed' to be), but, not inherently/necessarily the bottom-line one about attention-focus changing. To speak of that as being PRE-determined, is to embrace determinism itself. 

LLAP
J:D


Post 2

Monday, August 20, 2007 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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"He also shows how it is that progress occurs (by noting, and transcending, the limitations of rival views). And he also shows how truth could become useless to a sect of humans persistently interacting with each other -- when none are willing or able to transcend their personal limitations (e.g., Relativists, Subjectivists, and Determinists, for instance)."

In the course of argument or debate, differing parties are consciously or unconsciously injecting new data which breaks preconceived norms or prejudices in the other party.  Although "majority rules" more often than not minority positions or opinions lead the way when the process is open.





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Post 3

Monday, August 20, 2007 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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Just as you can't be a relativist and, at the same time, argue about morality (because if you're a relativist, then for you, there is no such thing as a valid argument for 'human morality'), likewise you can't be a determinist and, at the same time, argue about determinism (because if you're a determinist, then for you, there is no such thing as a valid argument for determinism.


The latter point above is true because determinism stipulates that all personal arguments be predetermined to come out in one predetermined way for you (and for those with which you attempt to argue) – whether the predetermination was primarily genetic, or from past experience with the external environment (the important thing is is that it mustn't involve personal agency; aka: choice).
But, as I've pointed out in previous posts, a conclusion is not the sort of thing that is chosen anyway; it is predetermined by one's understanding, whether the understanding is correct or incorrect. To be sure, a conclusion can result indirectly from the choice to think or not to think, but that choice is itself determined by one's interest in knowing the truth about a given issue.
What is being claimed on behalf of each particular moral [or determinism] standpoint in its conflict with its rival is that its distinctive account ... of morality [or determinism] ... is true.

Two aspects of this claim to truth are important to note at the outset. The first is that those who claim truth for the central theses of their own moral [or determinism] standpoint are thereby also committed to a set of theses about rational justification. For they are bound to hold that the arguments advanced in support of rival and incompatible sets of theses are unsound, not that they merely fail relative [or deterministically] to this or that set of standards, but that either their premises are false or their inferences invalid.
True, but there is no contradiction in holding both that they are unsound and that they are predetermined.
But insofar as the claim to truth also involves this further claim, it commits those who uphold it to a non-relativist [non-deterministic] conception of rational justification, to a belief that there must be somehow or other adequate standards of rational justification, which are not the standards internal to this or that standpoint, but are the standards of rational justification as such.
Right, and those standards are features of objective reality. If one's viewpoint reflects them -- if it conforms to reality -- then it is true; if it deviates from them, then it is false. The fact that one's ideas are predetermined by one's understanding of reality does not render them indefensible or unjustifiable, if one's understanding is correct and one's ideas conform to reality. Again, one's conclusions are not the sorts of things that are chosen; they are predetermined by one's grasp of reality, whether correct or incorrect.

The present controversy is a case in point. Determinists and volitionists disagree and, if this forum is any indication, intractably so. Why do they disagree? Why don't they simply choose to perceive the truth and overcome their disagreements? Why haven't the volitionists convinced the determinists; or the determinists, the volitionists? Because conclusions don't work that way; one cannot simply choose to to believe differently. To be sure, one can arrive at different conclusions, but only if one becomes aware of a flaw in one's argument and recognizes that the opposite argument has merit. Is the failure to reconcile these two opposing viewpoints -- determinism and free will -- due to a refusal to think on the part of either side? Is it due to moral neglect -- to a perverse unwillingness to focus? If so, then we must blame one side or the other; we must hold one side or the other morally responsible for the disagreement. I doubt that anyone here would be willing to do that -- to accuse the other side of moral neglect simply because they hold a different view on the issue. I think it's plain that both sides in this debate are predetermined to think the way they do by the differences in their respective understanding of the issue. In this respect, differing conclusions are indeed "relative" -- relative to the thinkers' knowledge and understanding.

Does that mean that true knowledge is impossible -- that only opinion can be advanced on behalf of a particular idea? No, for it is precisely this sort of argument that is trotted out in favor of skepticism. Since error is inadvertent and involuntary, it is argued that no one can ever be sure that he or she is not making an error. The proper rejoinder, however, is not to claim that error is voluntary or chosen and that the remedy is simply to choose to identify the truth -- it is not to argue for epistemological free will -- but to point out that, involuntary error notwithstanding, we can still claim knowledge; otherwise we couldn't identify the fact that we have erred. Erred relative to what? To what we recognize as the truth.

To be sure, people can evade; they can behave in an intellectually dishonest manner, but not all disagreements are the result of evasion or intellectual dishonesty. And to the extent that they are not, honest error is a factor; well meaning but incorrect or incomplete understanding determines our differing conclusions, not the 'choice' to reject truth in favor of falsehood, or falsehood in favor of truth. Yet, the argument advanced by those who hold that determinism is incompatible with objective thought and knowledge is implicitly relying on that very premise. Nor does it matter for the soundness, objectivity or reliability of one's conclusions whether one is determined by one's desire to know the truth to focus on the facts and arrive at a true conclusion, or whether one freely chooses to do so independently of that desire. In either case, one is justified in claiming knowledge.
Aristotle said that 'Truth is the telos of a theoretical enquiry' (Metaphysics, 993b20-21) and the activities which afford rational justification are incomplete until truth is attained. What is it to attain truth? The perfected understanding in which enquiry terminates, when some mind is finally adequate to that subject-matter about which it has been enquiring, consists in key part in being able to say how things are, rather than how they seem to be from the particular, partial [or deterministic] and limited standpoint of some particular set of perceivers or observers or enquirers.
Since we are not omniscient, all of our respective viewpoints are "limited" by our context of knowledge, our experience and our understanding. Does that mean that we cannot claim knowledge -- that only God or an "unlimited" and omniscient being can? No, of course not. If we've integrated our ideas without contradiction and based them on a perception of reality, then we can claim knowledge. Omniscience is not required.
Progress in enquiry consists in transcending the limitations of such particular and partial [or deterministic] standpoints in a movement towards truth, so that when we have acquired the ability of judging how in fact it seems or seemed from each limited and partial [or deterministic] standpoint, our judgments are no longer distorted by the limitations of those [deterministic] standpoints. And where there is no possibility of thus transcending such limitations, there is no application for the notion of truth.
This is a non sequitur. The fact that one's context of knowledge is limited does not mean that it is therefore distorted.
Here, MacIntyre shows how to arrive at the truth of a matter (i.e., by shedding the subjectivity – a concept which, by the definition of determinism, is implied by determinism -- and adopting a kind of 3rd-person and fully-integrated objectivity).
If one's values ultimately predetermine one's choices and one values a fully-integrated objectivity, then those values can predetermine one to approach an issue with precisely that perspective and frame of mind.
He also shows how it is that progress occurs (by noting, and transcending, the limitations of rival views). And he also shows how truth could become useless to a sect of humans persistently interacting with each other -- when none are willing or able to transcend their personal limitations (e.g., Relativists, Subjectivists, and Determinists, for instance).
The fact that one is determined by one's values does not mean that one cannot be motivated to seek out new knowledge and understanding. There is, of course, a sense in which no one can "transcend" his personal limitations. If he could, they wouldn't be his limitations. Everything is limited -- by the law of identity. For a thing to transcend its limitations in this sense, it would have to transcend the law of identity, which is impossible. If the argument for free will is that determinism implies epistemological limitations, then free will implies omniscience and would violate the law of identity.

I know that's not your argument, but in that case, the "limitations" you ascribe to determinism are not the ones that you think are fatal to it. Compatibilist determinism is not the same as relativism. An epistemological relativist holds that truth is relative -- that what is true for one person is not true for another -- which is a direct denial of objective knowledge. Determinists are not committed to that position, just because they hold that people are determined by their values, experience and knowledge to arrive at different views of the truth. A determinist need not hold that whatever view a person is determined to arrive at must be considered true. Compatibilists recognize that just as people often make mistakes in logic unintentionally and involuntarily, so people are often determined to arrive at false conclusions. Besides, as I noted above, conclusions are not the sorts of things that one freely chooses in any case. One doesn't freely choose to believe in capitalism; if one did, one could just as well choose to believe socialism, given the same knowledge and understanding. But it's easy to see introspectively that this is false. Understanding the case for capitalism, as I do, I cannot simply choose to believe otherwise. The same is true for the socialist. In a sense, we are all prisoners of our ideas until and unless we see a reason to change our minds and to think differently.

- Bill

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Post 4

Monday, August 20, 2007 - 11:33pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, that was one of the best posts I've seen written by anyone here on RoR, or elsewhere, on the free will vs. determinism controversy.

You should write a book -- and this material should be in it!

REB


Post 5

Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 12:50amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Roger! Do you think we could get Tibor to write an endorsement?

Sorry, I couldn't resist! ;-)

- Bill

Post 6

Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, thanks for responding. You wrote ...

... a conclusion is not the sort of thing that is chosen anyway; it is predetermined by one's understanding, whether the understanding is correct or incorrect.
Bill, would you please tie that in with the behavior of the religionists who chose not to look into Galileo's telescope (in order to see the proof that earth wasn't the center of the solar system). I picture you saying that these religionists didn't have a choice to look (or not look) through Galileo's telescope but rather, that they had -- somehow -- in their possession, either a built-up or a built-in prejudice preventing even the beginning of engagement into any kind of free inquiry regarding the matter. And also, hypothetically, if these religionists did have the choice to look and then chose to, then you'd argue that if they chose to look, then they'd reformulate their archaic thinking on the matter (because one can't choose to accept/reject a conclusion). Right?

And if you agree to the first part above (their prejudice precludes any and all free inquiry into the matter), then wouldn't you then be committed to agree with the notion that these religionists had become relativists on the matter -- objective inquiry simply being that kind of an inquiry which isn't particular, partial, and limited to the standpoint of some particular set of perceivers?

And if these religionists had become relativists on the matter, because of a built-up or a built-in prejudice (something which one might must presume is "only human"), then aren't you also committed to agree with the notion that there isn't such a thing as human truth -- because our differing value hierarchies effectively prevent that type of unified "free inquiry" required for the very discovery and human communication of truth itself?

There is a subtle point here. I am not asking whether truth exists or not (that'd be a silly question, and I'm sure that you'd agree to its silliness). I am asking whether there can be a man-made and shared body of knowledge about the truth of a matter (if our differing value hierarchies prevent us from attaining that "lofty" goal of free inquiry).

I'd like to take only one point per post, if you don't mind. I feel that the potential entanglements in this discussion require that kind of focus and concentration. Please consider addressing my point about the notions which your quote inherently commits you to, and then I would gladly welcome further (either deeper or broader) discussion on the matter.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/21, 6:57pm)


Post 7

Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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Discussion point #2

Bill, I wrote the following (about which you commented) ...

What is being claimed on behalf of each particular moral [or determinism] standpoint in its conflict with its rival is that its distinctive account ... of morality [or determinism] ... is true.

Two aspects of this claim to truth are important to note at the outset. The first is that those who claim truth for the central theses of their own moral [or determinism] standpoint are thereby also committed to a set of theses about rational justification. For they are bound to hold that the arguments advanced in support of rival and incompatible sets of theses are unsound, not that they merely fail relative [or deterministically] to this or that set of standards, but that either their premises are false or their inferences invalid.

True, but there is no contradiction in holding both that they are unsound and that they are predetermined.


That's what I was trying to get at in my post above -- that at least some (if not, all) humans are predetermined to believe in, marshall, and defend unsound positions on matters. This is important because if some (if not, all) humans are thusly predetermined, then "there is no application for the notion of truth."

Bill, though I acknowledge that you are "free" to do whatever you want, I'd like you to know that it would be fine with me if you addressed these 2 points of mine (in post 6 and post 7) in one single post, in spite of my initial request for a rigorous hyper-focus on what is being said here, and on how what it is that is being said actually does entail some further and potentially-disturbing epistemological commitments.

;-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/21, 7:01pm)


Post 8

Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 2:22amSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "... a conclusion is not the sort of thing that is chosen anyway; it is predetermined by one's understanding, whether the understanding is correct or incorrect." Ed replied,
Bill, would you please tie that in with the behavior of the religionists who chose not to look into Galileo's telescope (in order to see the proof that earth wasn't the center of the solar system). I picture you saying that these religionists didn't have a choice to look (or not look) through Galileo's telescope but rather, that they had -- somehow -- in their possession, either a built-up or a built-in prejudice preventing even the beginning of engagement into any kind of free inquiry regarding the matter.
Actually, from what I've read, it wasn't the Catholic priests who refused to look into Galileo's telescope but two of Galileo's scientific rivals, the scholastic natural philosophers Cesare Cremonini and Guilio Libri. They embraced the then popular view that telescopic observations were a superfluous amendment to the adequacy of Aristotle's physical system. But this is a minor point that does not alter the relevance of your example.

No, these scientific rivals had a choice to look through Galileo's telescope, just as the socialist (in my voting example) had a choice to vote for the capitalist candidate; but, their preconceived notions determined their choice. Given their prior beliefs and attendant bias, these scientists could not have chosen to look into Galileo's telescope, because they didn't value doing so -- because they thought it was superfluous. We say that they had a choice to look into Galileo's telescope, because they could have done so if their convictions were different (i.e., if they valued looking into it). In other words, no one would have prevented them from making that choice if they had wanted to make it.
And also, hypothetically, if these religionists did have the choice to look and then chose to, then you'd argue that if they chose to look, then they'd reformulate their archaic thinking on the matter (because one can't choose to accept/reject a conclusion). Right?
Well, a perception is not a conclusion; they'd reformulate their archaic thinking only if they viewed the evidence of their senses as sufficient to justify it, which they probably would. As Thomas Lessl points out in his essay "The Galileo Legend," "the two priests who did look through Galileo's telescope, Fathers Clavius and Grienberger, were converted by the experience to Galileo's Copernican position."
And if you agree to the first part above (their prejudice precludes any and all free inquiry into the matter), then wouldn't you then be committed to agree with the notion that these religionists had become relativists on the matter -- objective inquiry simply being that kind of an inquiry which isn't particular, partial, and limited to the standpoint of some particular set of perceivers?
I wouldn't say that they had become relativists. Relativism is a philosophical position, which says that truth is relative to the individual observer -- that there is no objective or absolute truth. Galileo's scientific rivals, who refused to look into his telescope, did not believe that.

Moreover, I would not say that objective inquiry isn't particular, partial, or limited to the standpoint of some particular set of perceivers. It is indeed so limited, for it is held only by those who believe in and support objective inquiry. It is not held by relativists or subjectivists, or by those who don't believe in it.
And if these religionists had become relativists on the matter, because of a built-up or a built-in prejudice (something which one might must presume is "only human"), then aren't you also committed to agree with the notion that there isn't such a thing as human truth -- because our differing value hierarchies effectively prevent that type of unified "free inquiry" required for the very discovery and human communication of truth itself?
The fact that some people are prejudiced doesn't mean that everyone is, nor does it mean that people cannot overcome their prejudice, once they become aware of it as being an impediment to sound thinking. The fact that people have differing value hierarchies does not mean that no one can value free inquiry or discover the truth. Nor does it mean that those who value it cannot convince others who don't already agree with them. Good ideas can go a long way towards overcoming prejudiced thinking and behavior.

- Bill

Post 9

Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 3:51amSanction this postReply
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Bill, I want to thank you for extending the time and energy needed to answer my specific questions. In other words, I appreciate your good will. I would like to come back to this fine quote of yours ...

I wouldn't say that they had become relativists. Relativism is a philosophical position, which says that truth is relative to the individual observer -- that there is no objective or absolute truth. Galileo's scientific rivals, who refused to look into his telescope, did not believe that.

Moreover, I would not say that objective inquiry isn't particular, partial, or limited to the standpoint of some particular set of perceivers. It is indeed so limited, for it is held only by those who believe in and support objective inquiry. It is not held by relativists or subjectivists, or by those who don't believe in it.

... after asking you about your final comments (as they may make everything else in your post relatively superfluous to the point at hand) ...

The fact that some people are prejudiced doesn't mean that everyone is, nor does it mean that people cannot overcome their prejudice, once they become aware of it as being an impediment to sound thinking. The fact that people have differing value hierarchies does not mean that no one can value free inquiry or discover the truth. Nor does it mean that those who value it cannot convince others who don't already agree with them. Good ideas can go a long way towards overcoming prejudiced thinking and behavior.
Bill, this quote seems reasonable to me (and that's a big step in this kind of a discussion). Points in it seen by me are as follows ...


(1) People can choose to overcome prior prejudice (if or when "they become aware of it as being an impediment to sound thinking")

(2) People can value "free" inquiry (a type of inquiry biased only by truth discovery -- as illustrated by MacIntyre/Aristotle regarding the telos of inquiry itself -- rather than any kind of inquiry biased in any other kind of way)

(3) People can, through knowable facts and understandable logic, persuade others to choose to change their minds about matters

(4) People can personally overcome a prior incompleteness/limitation in their understanding of the world about them


These are 4 things than people can choose to do. Would you agree?

Ed


Post 10

Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 5:11amSanction this postReply
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We can liken the thinking of the Catholic Church to American auto executives in the 1970's.  The auto executives refused to recognize the fact that the Japanese were making autos which had similar efficiency with smaller engines and lighter auto bodies etc.  Likewise the church creates a product called religion and the customers often become angry, confused and upset when you change the product (like "New Coke" in the 1980's, the Vatican II New Mass in the 1960's, ending racial segregation in the 60's etc.).

Culture often overrules science and rationality.  Because of evolution the human being is a creature of self-preservation. 


Post 11

Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "The fact that some people are prejudiced doesn't mean that everyone is, nor does it mean that people cannot overcome their prejudice, once they become aware of it as being an impediment to sound thinking. The fact that people have differing value hierarchies does not mean that no one can value free inquiry or discover the truth. Nor does it mean that those who value it cannot convince others who don't already agree with them. Good ideas can go a long way towards overcoming prejudiced thinking and behavior." Ed replied,
Bill, this quote seems reasonable to me (and that's a big step in this kind of a discussion). Points in it seen by me are as follows ...

(1) People can choose to overcome prior prejudice (if or when "they become aware of it as being an impediment to sound thinking")
I didn't say they can "choose" to overcome it. I said simply they can overcome it once they become aware of it as being an impediment to sound thinking. Again, people have to be convinced that their views are prejudiced and are impediments to sound thinking before they'll give them up, but once they are so convinced, they will give them up. However, they don't choose to give them up in the way that, for example, the two priests chose to look through Galileo's telescope. Observe that once the priests did look through his telescope, they changed their minds not because they chose to but because, after seeing the relevant evidence, they were convinced that he was right.
(2) People can value "free" inquiry (a type of inquiry biased only by truth discovery -- as illustrated by MacIntyre/Aristotle regarding the telos of inquiry itself -- rather than any kind of inquiry biased in any other kind of way).
Since you put the term "free" in quotes, what do you mean by the term "'free' inquiry"? You're not referring to the concept of freedom that's relevant to free will, are you, because, of course, I wouldn't agree with that?! But if by "'free' inquiry," you simply mean inquiry that is objective and unbiased, then, yes, people can value it. Not that they always will, if they've been corrupted by bad philosophy, but they're capable of becoming objective and unbiased, once they recognize its importance.
(3) People can, through knowable facts and understandable logic, persuade others to choose to change their minds about matters.
No! People don't persuade others to choose to change their minds! They persuade others to change their minds. If you point out a logical error in my thinking, which causes me to change my mind, I don't change my mind because I choose to; I change it because I see that I was mistaken.
(4) People can personally overcome a prior incompleteness/limitation in their understanding of the world about them.
Yes, if they become aware of it.
These are 4 things than people can choose to do. Would you agree?
No. As I've indicated, people don't choose to change their beliefs. I thought that my position on this was clear from my previous post.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 8/22, 9:34am)


Post 12

Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

In Post #7, you wrote that "if some (if not, all) humans are thusly predetermined [to be biased and non-objective], then 'there is no application for the notion of truth'."

You meant that there is no application for the concept of knowledge, didn't you? Truth is the correspondence of an idea to reality. If the idea corresponds, then it is true; if it doesn't, then it is false. A biased, non-objective thinker could certainly arrive at true ideas -- ideas that happen to correspond to reality -- even though insofar as they were arrived at non-objectively, he couldn't claim to know that they're true. So, an idea arrived at for biased reasons wouldn't constitute knowledge, even though it might very well be true.

So, let me rephrase your position as follows: "If some humans are thusly predetermined [to be biased], then there is no application for the concept of knowledge." This, I think, is what you intended to say. Am I correct?

If so, I still think that your position is false. The fact that some people are predetermined to be biased doesn't mean that others who are predetermined to be unbiased cannot themselves claim knowledge. What is relevant for knowledge is not whether one is predetermined or free, but whether one's method of reasoning is correct or incorrect. If one's method is correct, then one can claim knowledge regardless of whether one is predetermined to employ it or free to employ it. If one's method is incorrect, then one cannot claim knowledge regardless of whether one is predetermined to employ it or free to employ it. To be sure, not everyone's method is sound, but that doesn't mean that there is no application for the concept of knowledge.

- Bill

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Post 13

Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

"Just as you can't be a relativist and, at the same time, argue about morality (because if you're a relativist, then for you, there is no such thing as a valid argument for 'human morality'), likewise you can't be a determinist and, at the same time, argue about determinism (because if you're a determinist, then for you, there is no such thing as a valid argument for determinism."

Ed, I would say exactly that, but just leave off the last two words as redundant.

Ted

Post 14

Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 5:46pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent analysis, Ted!

;-)

Ed


Post 15

Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 6:26pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I didn't say they can "choose" to overcome it. I said simply they can overcome it once they become aware of it as being an impediment to sound thinking. Again, people have to be convinced that their views are prejudiced and are impediments to sound thinking before they'll give them up, but once they are so convinced, they will give them up.
I agree that the intellect is necessitated (that you can't "will" for 2 + 2 to equal 5). I'd also agree that the other component of will, desire, is also necessitated (by current and prior mental focus -- and by felt and remembered feelings). But the will is different than its 2 parts. It's tricky to understand. It is not intellect, nor is it desire. Instead, it is a dynamic and cyclical interrelation of the two. Being 2 things and not 1, it -- as a whole -- gains a freedom which neither of its 2 parts, alone, had in themselves.

You're simply saying that when folks do things (such as overcome thinking impediments), that there wasn't a prior and/or continuous, dynamic, and cyclical deliberation on their part (i.e., they didn't review the alternatives and make a choice from the available options; a choice made either prior to the action took, or at anytime during the commencement of the action -- as when a choice is made on the spot).

Well, if my summation of your thinking is true, then we may have to 'agree to disagree' on this one, Bill. And yet I still have a curious hope for us. Go figure. It must be something I see in you and me; something like us being 2 beings with tremendous patience, carefulness in thought and word, and passion for truth discovery.

Here's a great question for me to ask you at this point in OUR discussion of this matter: Have you yet entertained the notion that the will might be 2 separate things interrelating -- and how that very dynamic and cyclical interrelation might afford a freedom of the whole which is not found, separately and distinctly, in its parts? I think it would be productive if you would give the assent of your will to my definition of will, "Will." Will you?

;-)

I think that you might be working with a Fallacy of Composition, Bill (wherein characteristics of parts are erroneously transferred to the whole). I also think that if you were 'determined' to think of will as I do, then some (if not, all) of our current inability to make discussion progress may just wither away. In short, we require a shared definition of will before moving forward. Only then, with this new and proper definition of what it is that we are talking about, might we get better discussion progress than we've had up until now. I'm sure, if pressed, you'd agree that a 'definition of terms' is epistemologically prior to any fruitful discussion of anything in question, right? I know this because I know you -- you are a very, very insightful and understanding (i.e., wise) man.

I think that progress is just around the corner. We just have to figure out how to intellectually engage one another better, and that's all that we have to do in order for this discussion to progress.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/23, 6:56pm)


Post 16

Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, you wrote,
You're simply saying that when folks do things (such as overcome thinking impediments), that there wasn't a prior and/or continuous, dynamic, and cyclical deliberation on their part (i.e., they didn't review the alternatives and make a choice from the available options; a choice made either prior to the action took, or at anytime during the commencement of the action -- as when a choice is made on the spot).
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that a conclusion or belief is not a choice, although it can certainly be the result of a choice (e.g., to deliberate, review various options, etc.)

- Bill

Post 17

Friday, August 24, 2007 - 3:00amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

From earlier discussions with you I can surmise that we agree that the final end of human action is happy living, and that -- on this one topic -- humans couldn't have chosen otherwise. Where we disagree is regarding whether the means to that singular end are chosen or not. What might be giving us trouble in gaining a mutual understanding is that even the conditional ends (with regard to that unconditional and final end of happy living) -- are, in all actually, merely chosen means as well [See my recent quote from the front page].

Ed


Post 18

Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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Ed writes:

Bill, would you please tie that in with the behavior of the religionists who chose not to look into Galileo's telescope (in order to see the proof that earth wasn't the center of the solar system). I picture you saying that these religionists didn't have a choice to look (or not look) through Galileo's telescope but rather, that they had -- somehow -- in their possession, either a built-up or a built-in prejudice preventing even the beginning of engagement into any kind of free inquiry regarding the matter. And also, hypothetically, if these religionists did have the choice to look and then chose to, then you'd argue that if they chose to look, then they'd reformulate their archaic thinking on the matter (because one can't choose to accept/reject a conclusion). Right?

I chime in:

Tycho Brahe found a way of reconciling what Galileo would have seen through his glass and the Ptolemaic view: Tycho proposed that all the planets BUT earth revolve around the Sun and the solar system minus earth, revolves around the earth. Mathematically this is equivalent to Ptolemy's system.

So what is wrong with it?

There is no reasonable physical principle that can account for such motion.

Newton found a principle that justifies both Kopernik and Kepler, the law of gravitation (inverse square law). It is incorrect, it turns out, but it very closely predicts what we see.

Bob Kolker


Post 19

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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Here is a rough diagram of a person experiencing an event and then making a choice.

[Event A] --> [intellect * desires] --> [choice B] --> [action B]

The 2nd item -- the intellect's interaction with desires -- is actually just your will. After your will "makes up its mind", then the choice is essentially chosen (the choosing is over), and like a foregone conclusion or a self-fulfilling prophecy, you are not free to go against your own will. This is depicted by the 2nd (middle) arrow in the equation.

But just because you are not free to go against your own will (2nd arrow), does not mean that your will, itself, wasn't free to make a choice in response to an event (1st arrow + a variable: your will). Because the will is not a constant, but a variable in-and-of-itself (a variable accidentally treated as a constant), it will not necessarily produce one and the same outcome after experiencing one and the same event (i.e., it could have chosen otherwise).

Because the will is not a constant, the response of the will to an event -- or to a string of events -- is not predetermined or even pre-determinable. This is because of the ongoing shifts in intellectual focus and the fluctuation, however minor, of desires that is characteristic of humans.

Here is a depiction of choosing otherwise:

[Event A] --> [intellect * desires] --> [choice C] --> [action C]

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 5/28, 8:35pm)


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