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Post 40

Monday, February 11, 2008 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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John:

You also have a tendency to inaccurately label people who disagree with you on political issues, such as myself, as anarchists and dismiss us when I believe you have failed to fully understand our arguments and positions.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 41

Monday, February 11, 2008 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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How so? Care to elaborate?

Post 42

Monday, February 11, 2008 - 2:44pmSanction this postReply
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John Armaos wrote:

> How so? Care to elaborate?

John:

Please accept my sincere apology for improperly ascribing this tendency to you. I was thinking back to the old "Photo - child stalked by vulture" thread in which you and I both participated for some time. However, I just went back and reviewed this and see that it was Ted Keer who made the assertion. I'm not sure why I made the association to you in my memory, but thanks for calling me on it and giving me the opportunity to correct myself. Hopefully, I will be more careful in the future.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 43

Monday, February 11, 2008 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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Hey not a problem Jeff. I was going to say I didn't remember calling you an anarchist as I didn't believe you to be one at all. I'm glad it's cleared up :)

Post 44

Monday, February 11, 2008 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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John,

I think we are going to have to cordially agree to disagree on this one. I don't think that, right at this moment, pure anarcho-capitalism is a workable system, even if the overwhelming majority of statists in our population got a brain transplant and accepted individualism. I think some conceptual breakthroughs and technological advances would need to occur to get past the really hard stuff to shed -- national defense, courts, police. But I think that theoretically it is possible to get to a completely voluntarily financed government that accepts alternative governmental-type adjudications of court cases and policing, which is functionally anarcho-capitalism. And it's currently technically feasible to get to an incredibly minarchist government that for the overwhelming majority of people for the overwhelming majority of the time feels just like anarcho-capitalism. The only thing preventing that from happening right now is the huge majority of statists among us.

Post 45

Monday, February 11, 2008 - 7:22pmSanction this postReply
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Ok Jim let's define our philosophies.

Anarcho-Capitalism: The absence of a monopoly government where competing legal frame-works exist side by side in the same geographical area.

Am I wrong in that definition?

Now you add voluntary funding to that definition, but that doesn't necessarily distinguish itself from an Objetivist form of government that requires a monopoly on the use of retaliatory (or more accurately delayed retaliatory) force that is also voluntarily funded.

If you are going by the traditional definition of anarcho-Capitalism, there can not exist competing legal frame-works operating side by side in the same geographical area without the initiation of force. Otherwise there are conflicting laws where one protection agency is initiating force against another. Because if one law is just, and if it conflicts with another, they cannot be both just laws, one is trying to enforce an unjust law on the other. If all agencies operate under the same legal-framework, we then have a de facto monopoly government. If no agencies can enforce laws, there is no reason for them, and thus no mechanism for protecting oneself from an initiation of force. If they negotiate with each other for adjudication, then they are operating under one legal frame-work and have made a de facto monopoly government. And also the idea set forth by anarchists is that as long as there is compromise between two competing protection agencies with their own sets of laws then it is good, but that doesn't take into account compromising between one set of unjust laws with a set of just laws, leaving one with a subversion of man's rights. How for example can one compromise a set of Westernized individual rights protection oriented set of laws with say Sharia law? Or Mafia law? Any compromise that occurs means one has compromised with their freedom, and the free exercise of those rights are thus subverted.



Post 46

Monday, February 11, 2008 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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John, you're defining anarcho-capitalism as a pure either/or proposition. I'm saying it is more of a fuzzily defined state of affairs that is a subset of minarchism, where you whittle away at more and more government functions so that more and more people are, for all intents and purposes, living their lives free of government interference. There are people right now who are essentially living in their own single-person anarcho-capitalist society, homeless outlaws who pay no taxes and don't recognize the authority of any laws and stay in wilderness areas where the government basically has no reach -- say, far Northern Canada. As you trim away the government, and the government becomes more and more tolerant of dissent to its authority, instead of such people being an ignorably miniscule fraction of the populace, more and more people would become functionally free.

Not a traditional definition of anarcho-capitalism, admittably, but I'm looking at the degree of freedom for each particular individual, not for a society collectively. Surely you see the irony in defining anarcho-capitalism in a collective framework? ;)

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Post 47

Tuesday, February 12, 2008 - 1:19amSanction this postReply
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Jim, when we speak of political systems, we are not defining moral agents to be collectives, we are defining moral agents to be individual human beings who interact with other human beings, or man qua man. If there's any irony you see in that it is purely borne out of your misunderstanding.

John, you're defining anarcho-capitalism as a pure either/or proposition. I'm saying it is more of a fuzzily defined state of affairs that is a subset of minarchism, where you whittle away at more and more government functions so that more and more people are, for all intents and purposes, living their lives free of government interference.


Ok, so your definition of anarcho-capitalism is a political system that says individuals live free from government interference. But what is wrong with this definition is that you provide no context. What kind of interference and against whom and for what reason? What about criminals who violate an individual's rights? Are they not interfering? And if so does an individual have a right to retaliate? If so under what legal framework can he retaliate? Can he decide for himself what is a fair punishment? Could he alone decide to imprison another individual who he feels initiated force against him? What if he decides stealing a loaf of bread should be punishable by the death sentence? And if others protest that it is not a fair sentence, do they have any say in the matter or would they just be interfering in the private affairs of others? Or what if others think the alleged assailant is innocent, and demand proof from the individual claiming his rights were violated, are they interfering in the affairs of others? This definition you give does not recognize any kind of harmony of interests between men, but regards man as living on an island to himself, without any interaction with other men, or it could mean it is a dog eat dog world and men should fend for themselves and mete out their own subjective brand of justice. I think what you provide is a very incomplete philosophy.

There are people right now who are essentially living in their own single-person anarcho-capitalist society, homeless outlaws who pay no taxes and don't recognize the authority of any laws and stay in wilderness areas where the government basically has no reach -- say, far Northern Canada.


Ok fine, but what if there were people who set up their own private compound to imprison people as their slaves? Would they just be outlaws who pay no taxes living free from government interference too? Sounds like Jim you give no context to what it means to live free.

Not a traditional definition of anarcho-capitalism


Not trying to be rude Jim but I don't think you gave much of a definition at all.
(Edited by John Armaos on 2/12, 1:42am)


Post 48

Tuesday, February 12, 2008 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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"Not trying to be rude Jim but I don't think you gave much of a definition at all."

No offense taken, John. In fact, I sanctioned your post. Excellent questions. Don't know if I have time to give as thorough a response to each of those questions as they deserve -- it's 5 am Hawaii time, and I'll need to start getting kids off to school soon -- but I'll try to start outlining an answer now.

I'm not talking about trying to reinvent the wheel and build a new system from scratch. That would be the height of folly. No one in their right mind would like to try that, unless they were in desperate straits.

Let's start with a historical example of a functioning anarcho-capitalist system on the federal/national level, though with some vestiges of government at a more local level. After the Declaration of Independence, the area of the American colonies had at least two and possibly as many as five systems of "governance" existing side-by-side in the same geographical area, and thus no monopoly of force, and thus a state of "anarchy", if you will. The British soldiers occupying parts of the colonies were under the direct rule of the British government. The British loyalist colonists still owed their allegiance to the Crown, and in their minds were still subjects of the Crown, but unless British troops were temporarily in their cities this relationship with a government was largely ephemeral and existed primarily in their heads. The colonists who were actively participating in the rebellion owed their allegiance to a collective ideal of an independent system of governance, but since there was no system of government yet, they were living in functional anarchy at a national level, even if locally they still had rules and codes of conduct more or less informally enforced. The colonists who didn't want to participate in the rebellion and didn't want to be governed by the Crown and lived in cities or towns had national-level anarchy, though again codes of conduct with their neighbors. And finally, the colonists living out on the verges of colonial civilization in what was then wilderness had pretty much a complete anarcho-capitalist system, where each person lived independently and enforced their rights, as they perceived those rights, using their personal firearms, and interacting with their neighbors and trading partners with an informal code of conduct where if you violated someone's rights, the aggrieved parties would have to work out an informal resolution, perhaps bringing allies into the mix if the two sides had difficulties settling their competing notions of justice.

Heinlein's great novel, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", explores some aspects of how anarcho-capitalism might work, including an example of a private adjudication of a dispute by a mutually agreed-upon arbiter.

At least one of Charles Stross' novels explores a society emerging into anarcho-capitalism, where the federal government is still trying to maintain control, but where computer technology has allowed more and more individuals to escape its control.

In short, I don't have all the answers -- in fact, the essence of anarcho-capitalism is that there is no central repository of definitive "answers" -- but quite a few individuals have nibbled at the edges of how to get there from here. I'm not claiming it is possible right now, but with the growth of computing power, essentially anarcho-capitalist structures like the Internet could incrementally take over functions now controlled by a central government.

Think of government as Swiss cheese, and anarcho-capitalism as the holes in the cheese, and imagine the holes getting bigger and bigger until, like the Cheshire cat in Alice in Wonderland, even the smile vanishes.

Post 49

Thursday, February 14, 2008 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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In light of where this discussion has been taken--once again a mystery to me, given what I wrote about that supposedly got it going--some of you might like to know of a book just out, Anarchism/Minarchism, Is Government Part of a Free Country? (Ashgate, 2008), edited by Roderick Long and me, with 8 essays by various philosophers who more or less support one or the other positions or deny the two really differ. 

Post 50

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 5:26amSanction this postReply
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Dang - that book costs more than I paid for the entire OED !!!

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Post 51

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 8:19amSanction this postReply
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Jim: "John, you're defining anarcho-capitalism as a pure either/or proposition."

Well, yes. That's because all concepts are *objective*. If individuals are going to discuss a concept, they need to agree on what they're discussing. Otherwise, you just get a confusing mess. If you know nothing else about Ayn Rand, you should know that she vehemently opposed the idea that any concept should be "fuzzily defined". That includes the concept of "anarchism" (or "anarcho-capitalism").
(Edited by Jon Trager on 2/15, 12:00pm)


Post 52

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
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"John, you're defining anarcho-capitalism as a pure either/or proposition.

Well, yes. That's because all concepts are *objective*. If individuals are going to discuss a concept, they need to agree on what they're discussing. Otherwise, you just get a confusing mess. If you know nothing else about Ayn Rand, you should know that she vehemently opposed that idea that any concept should be "fuzzily defined". That includes the concept of "anarchism" (or "anarcho-capitalism")."

Well, sure, except objective reality includes fuzzily defined situations. Read about chaos and fractal theory, ponder the Schrodinger's cat situation, study quantum mechanic's theory that the act of observation changes the object being studied, and that you can't definitively know a small enough particle's location and velocity simultaneously -- you can only know one or the other -- reality is a messy, sloppy, fuzzy thing. Not everything can be pinned down -- you pin a butterfly onto a board, you can study how it looks, but not how it behaves, because you just killed it.

That's not an excuse for sloppy thinking, but some things aren't either/or, they're gradients gradually shading into each other in many dimensions, and precise thinking must recognize that chaotic, fractal nature. And anarcho-capitalism is about individuals achieving freedom from government one by one, not about collective groups achieving freedom. Cause Ayn Rand was about individualism, not collectivism.

Post 53

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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John Trager wrote:

Well, yes. That's because all concepts are *objective*. If individuals are going to discuss a concept, they need to agree on what they're discussing. Otherwise, you just get a confusing mess. If you know nothing else about Ayn Rand, you should know that she vehemently opposed that idea that any concept should be "fuzzily defined". That includes the concept of "anarchism" (or "anarcho-capitalism").

Bob Kolker responds:

There are non-objective concepts. For example -unicorn-. The concept is clearly defined and no such beast exists so where is the concept objective? Ditto for a five dimensional hypercube. It is defined with mathematical precision and does not exist anywhere in the cosmos.

Bob Kolker



Post 54

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Guys, Jon Trager means the definition of a concept must be agreed to in order to have any kind of meaningful discussion, i.e. the definition must be objective. We would have to agree what it means when we say "Unicorn" before even discussing if such a thing exists. It doesn't mean the concept is valid or invalid, only that for us to even discuss it we have to agree on a definition first. Hence if someone proposes anarcho-Capitalism is a valid concept, they must first work with a clearly defined concept, and then see if it conforms to reality.

Jim:

Well, sure, except objective reality includes fuzzily defined situations. Read about chaos and fractal theory, ponder the Schrodinger's cat situation, study quantum mechanic's theory that the act of observation changes the object being studied, and that you can't definitively know a small enough particle's location and velocity simultaneously -- you can only know one or the other -- reality is a messy, sloppy, fuzzy thing.


Jim it seems clear to me you are very unfamiliar with Objectivism. Have you read an "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology"? I think you should give it a read, it might clear up some misunderstandings I believe you have.

Post 55

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
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Jim, it's clear to me from the examples you cite in your last post that you're not familiar with the Objectivist metaphysics or epistemology. That's not surprising, as many people get interested in Objectivism based on its ethics and politics. I suggest you listen to the talk "The Crisis In Physics--And Its Cause" by Objectivist physicist David Harriman. It's available for free on the Ayn Rand Institute website if you register.

Bob, certainly "unicorn" doesn't refer to anything existing in reality. However, "unicorn" is still an *objective* concept, as John points out. We agree on what we mean when we discuss the term: a mythical horse with a single horn on its head. The concept is formed by mentally abstracting certain aspects of reality that do exist and then integrating them into a single concept that doesn't exist.

Similarly, "capitalism" in the Objectivist sense of the term doesn't exist (and never quite has), but the concept is still objective in that it refers to a particular social system. Many people, of course, consider any market-oriented society to be an example of "capitalism," including mixed economies. Regardless, the essential feature of a capitalist society isn't the presence of markets, but a government limited to the protection of individual rights.

Post 56

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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John and Jon -- you're absolutely right, I'm a newbie to Objectivism, as I've pointed out several times in the month or so since I've been checking out this website.  Haven't the slightest idea what you all are rattling on about when you talk about epistemology.  Thanks for your linked references -- I'll check them out, so I can try to understand your POVs better when y'all insist there's this absolute, universal truth with no fuzziness or relativity, in defiance of what I picked up in my college physics and other science classes, or when studying Einstein's General and Special Theories of Relativity, which apparently are patently false from the first principles of the Church of Objectivism (Orthodox).  (I keed, I keed) ;) 

Post 57

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
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Not really - the physics as they are work, but remember the theories are not yet unified, and the reason is that they don't quite fit everything yet. 

Also, when the physicist or biochemist begins to leave the very specific area in which they study, and try to apply the same principal to something else, they start creating problems.  So for example, if you understood Newtonian Mechanics and use it to explain sub-atomic particles, it does not work.  In the same way, sometimes the scientists today explain other areas of metaphysics using inaccurate assumptions based on what is true in very limited cases.

So yes, where are you getting your "fuzziness" other than in equations and math where we may not be able to predict - that does not mean that it is not one way or another, just that we don't have, or maybe cannot have, certain information - like the fact is, it will never be possible to know every word spoken by Julius Caesar, but we know that it was knowable!  So the truth exists, but cannot ever be found out any longer.


Post 58

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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Robert K.,

This post 53 of yours is another example of the kind of phenomena to which Rodney Rawlings was referring when he wrote of yourself: "... in matters of philosophy he puts me in mind of a sack of hammers." Let me show you where you're wrong:

There are non-objective concepts. For example -unicorn-. The concept is clearly defined and no such beast exists so where is the concept objective?
There are 3 main kinds of things folks can think about: the Objective, the Subjective, and the Intrinsic. There are 2 main kinds of things folks can share with each other: the Objective and the Subjective. There is one main kind of thing folks can reason together about: the Objective (which includes our actively-thought concepts and our directly-perceived particulars).

An example of the Objective is justice -- it's objective because it's blind (to any particular bias of any particular observer at any particular time). It means treating equals equally, and unequals unequally. It's always meant that, and always will. When folks are in positions of disbelief about that, it's not because justice has changed or, is different, for them -- it's because they haven't been made familiar enough with what justice is or means.

An example of the Subjective is a toothache -- it's non-objective because it's observer-dependent. There is a way to get a glimpse of what someone is talking about when they complain of a toothache, but it really requires having to have had one yourself (and remembering that particular).

An example of the Intrinsic is God -- it's non-objective because it's neither conceivable nor perceivable (no attributes of God are knowable, no details about God can be perceived).

It's non-subjective because it's not memorable. There is no way to get even a glimpse of what someone is talking about when they talk about God -- because that would require having to have had "their experience" of "God" yourself (not just a so-called "similar" experience of this self-same thing, God -- because there is no way to judge similarity in that).

Aquinas alluded to this when he said we could only ever say what God isn't -- and that we could never ever say what God is.

Now that I've taught you the key differences between the objective, the subjective, and the intrinsic; you should be in the position to judge where -- within these 3 possible positions for all expressed things -- unicorns fall.

I'll leave the right answer unnamed, as an "exercise for the reader." You may not be smarter than THIS Objectivist, Robert, but I know that you're still human, nonetheless.

;-)

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 2/15, 2:03pm)


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Post 59

Friday, February 15, 2008 - 3:36pmSanction this postReply
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Found a clip on YouTube of the lecture Jon referred to in post #55 -- fascinating stuff -- to paraphrase what I think David Harriman is getting at is this:

You have a bunch of scientists who have data and equations that they don't fully understand, and instead of admitting something along these lines: "Hey, we don't really understand this stuff well enough yet -- here's what our equations seem to be suggesting, but it's ludicrous to say Schrodinger's cat is simultaneously dead and undead -- obviously, either the equations are wrong, or our interpretations of it aren't apt, so, hey, grad students, get cracking and see if you can come up with something that is logical and comports with reality and is testable and verifiable"

and instead, they talk about simultaneously dead and undead cats, as if that's actually possible, because shoveling this manure can get them tenure.

In other words, the universe isn't fuzzy, our understanding of it is, but it's OK to talk about that fuzziness if it's understood as an artifact of our lack of complete understanding.  Sort of like an impressionistic painting that reflects the bad eyesight of the painter who painted what he or she saw -- the painting doesn't reflect reality, it reflects the painter's perception, but with that flawed perception accurately portrayed.


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