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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 4:50pmSanction this postReply
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Later, at Ashley's PDP, the senior management team called an emergency meeting. People were furious, and trying hide that they were deeply worried. It wasn't the first time one of their subscribers had been snatched.

CEO Trent Wallace opened the meeting, "We can't let this keep on happening. The news picked up on the story even through we tried to keep it quiet. Damn it, Tom, you're our PR guy, why can't you keep a lid on this! It's only been six hours and already we are getting subscription cancelations. Find a way to spin this... deny it... do something!"

Harold, the senior VP, spoke loudly, "We have to stage a raid and get them back - all of them, and if some of those MPDP3 kidnapping bastards get killed, too damn bad!"

Boris, from accounting spoke up, "Let's not act too soon. I've got some good people correlating the demand curve for subscriptions with adverse effects of a failed raid, the costs of the raid itself, and the probability of retaliation against us by a much more power PDP. And, we still don't know what our losses would be if we decided cancel abortion protection."

Director Barbara said, "If we violate that many contracts we're going to have a lot of upset subscribers."

"So?" What are they going to do? Sue us? Let accounting add that to the equation," snapped Trent.

"Fuck all of that!" yelled Harold, turning red in the face.

Everyone went quiet, heads down and their eyes looking anywhere but at each other. Then Boris raised his head and spoke in small voice, saying, "MPDP3 has a hit squad you know - our security people think they killed those board members at Acme Protection." The room went quiet.

"Alright," said Trent, "let's wait till we have both the marketing and the cost accounting projections on this. Meeting adjourned."

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

"Law" can sure turn into some real crazy things when the only thing granting it any kind of authority/validity is whether or not some people somewhere paid a whole lot of money to have it precisely the way that they want it.

It's like advertisement for Burger King, you get to have it your way. Only thing is, when you get the burger done the way you like it, then it is only you who must live with the results. But writing/enforcing law is different than ordering burgers.

:-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/23, 7:13pm)


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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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"But he never paid any attention to me, notwithstanding I made several attempts to "draw him out" on federal politics and his high handed attitude toward Congress. I thought some of the things I said were rather fine. But he merely looked around at me, at distant intervals, something as I have seen a benignant old cat look around to see which kitten was meddling with her tail.

By and by I subsided into an indignant silence, and so sat until the end, hot and flushed, and execrating him in my heart for an ignorant savage. But he was calm. His conversation with those gentlemen flowed on as sweetly and peacefully and musically as any summer brook. When the audience was ended and we were retiring from the presence, he put his hand on my head, beamed down on me in an admiring way and said to my brother:

"Ah—your child, I presume? Boy, or girl?"

Mark Twain, Roughing It, Part 2, Chapter 13

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 5:27amSanction this postReply
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Objectivists will need to figure out how to live in a community and with a legal system that does not fully embrace Objectivism since the prospect of getting everyone on board in any community is very slim, indeed Utopian.

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Post 4

Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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To be fair this isn't all encompassing Objectivism being discussed, just the political aspect of it, so you don't need everyone to embrace Objectivism as a total and complete philosophy. The political philosophy of liberty and individual rights by Rand was taken to its logical conclusion, nor was she unique in this respect (Locke?). Nor would you need every member of that community to be on board with it. Just as the Founding Fathers did not have every member of their community on board with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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There will still remain dimwit activists demanding so-called "progressive" policies and doing all within their power, honest and otherwise, to implement them.

Objectivists will have to learn to tolerate the noise since no amount of rational argumentation can compel an evading mind to focus.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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This story wasn't about some kind of a plan for some kind of a perfect society. Nor was it about some kind of a plan for some kind of an Objectivist society, perfect or not. It was about the imperfections of a totally different kind of society (where law gains all of its authority from nothing other than collective whims, paid for by subscription fees).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/24, 1:44pm)


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Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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But then the issues is what does Objectivism add to the libertarian politics if its politics is pretty much the same thing? Presumably, as Rand thought, libertarian politics -- radical capitalism -- needs Objectivism to give it support. But does that mean everyone who is a bona fide libertarian must also be a full blown Objectivist? If not, my earlier point holds.

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Post 8

Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 5:51pmSanction this postReply
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Whether the Objectivist politics is the same as libertarian politics depends on what kind of libertarian one is talking about. As Ed points out, there is a crucial and irreconcilable difference between the Objectivist view of government and the anarcho-libertarian view.


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Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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But does that mean everyone who is a bona fide libertarian must also be a full blown Objectivist? If not, my earlier point holds.
As a response to my short story, I take that to mean ...

[short form:]
Don't be divisive, because then no one wins.
... or ...

[long form:]
Don't decry your philosophical neighbors (or philosophical kin), as they are needed to help get to the kind of society you personally want -- so you will/may have to align with them now, and you will/may have to live with them later."
Is that accurate? In other words, do you think my tragic-comedy was "over-the-top" (by alienating potential fellow foot soldiers for my very own cause)?

Ed


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Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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... there is a crucial and irreconcilable difference between the Objectivist view of government and the anarcho-libertarian view.

Good point, Bill. It really wasn't very clear from just my title and story line that I was referring only to anarcho-libertarians/anarcho-capitalists -- who are, as a group, legal positivists (because of what they advocate). For instance, I would be perfectly fine changing the title of my story to this:

Libertarianism without Individual (Natural) Rights: One terrible eventuality of anarcho-capitalism.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/24, 6:04pm)


Post 11

Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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I am not interested in revisiting the minarchist v. anarchist dispute. I think I have resolved it in my essay for the volume Rod Long and I edited for Ashgate.

Post 12

Friday, March 25, 2011 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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Tres,

Will you please edit my title to read:
Libertarianism without Individual (Natural) Rights: An outcome of anarcho-capitalism


?
Or, if that's too long to fit, then just:
Libertarianism without Individual (Natural) Rights

?Ed

p.s. I see that you changed it. Thank you!

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/25, 6:44pm)


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Post 13

Saturday, March 26, 2011 - 3:37amSanction this postReply
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I think the minarchism v. anarchism dispute may be left aside here. It is relatively minor, despite how much some Randians and Rothbardians make of it. I have shown this much: the difference is mainly between a stationary versus a floating government (kind of like the difference between a pizza parlor and a pizza delivery service). (Yes, these libertarians endorse what amounts to a government, despite all the protestations of the so called anarchists who embrace what they call justice or defense agencies, mere euphemisms for government, needed because they hold, with the late Rothbard, that governments must be coercive since they must tax, which is all wrong!)

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Saturday, March 26, 2011 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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TM: ...  the difference is mainly between a stationary versus a floating government (kind of like the difference between a pizza parlor and a pizza delivery service). (Yes, these libertarians endorse what amounts to a government, despite ...
Well, that is an interesting idea: pizza parlor vs. pizza delivery.  The analogy is worth sleeping on.

As the sun climbs over the yardarm, allow me to point out that all religious services are services.  Nonetheless, we differentiate Catholic masses from Protestant services and those services from Quaker meetings.  A Catholic mass is a service with communion.  You can fight wars over this stuff. 

The U.S. government encompasses the Post Office and Mint, even though the word "police" appears nowhere in the Constitution.  Among the privateers, as with masses and meetings, there are adjudicators, negotiators, and arbitrators.  Not all guard companies meet the same needs. Some specialize in large crowd events; others offer executive protection; others patrol industrial parks. In our time, whole city police departments have been indicted, leaving the town council to hire weaponized substitutes.  Just to say, words have meaning.

But I will chew on those meanings the next time I have pizza.  Interesting analogy.  Thanks.
Red check for that.


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Saturday, March 26, 2011 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
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I have always maintained that it isn't the government that anarchists want to get rid off. They just make up these constructs of various quasi-government entities to explain why monopoly law isn't needed. They want to eliminate law.

It is the sense of an absolute they veer away from. Watch the particular abuses of logic many anarchists employ and you see that anarchy runs deeper than politics. You see it evidenced in epistemology or maybe even metaphysics, as if everything was elastic enough to make logic unnecessary.

And I think these are often better seen as examples of psychology finding expression in philosophy. A yearning that anything should be possible and the sense that the vague, the chaotic, the disordered universe feels more comfortable. Or, the blind, but insistent quest for a magical utopia in the land of non-order, non-law. The rest, what is put in front of us as 'arguments,' are just mental masturbation.

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Saturday, March 26, 2011 - 12:37pmSanction this postReply
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Anarchists claim that since government is less efficient than private organizations competing in a free market, that even the best and most efficient minarchy is costing more than private defense agencies would cost and therefore, the taxes that cover the protection of individual rights is higher than it could be and because of that the taxes in excess of what the private defence agencies would charge is theft.

There are several logic errors involved in that.

1.) Without the prior existence of a significant degree of a monopoly of laws based upon individual laws you cannot have free markets (free of initiated force) hence no free competition, and instead you get competition that includes initiation of force.

2.) The costs of private defense will actually be higher. The indirect, but real product of a minarchy is human joy. The minarchy allows the maximizing of human action that is unleased by an environment of stable property rights. It is the transformation of the ideal of non-initiation of force into the culture. Even with today's corrupt government, I live with the positive expectation that I can walk out my front door safely. It that weren't so, my actions would be very restricted and much of my energy would be used up trying to protect and to defend. A stable minarchy, over time, maximizes an energy-releasing positive expectation. This is in opposition to the constant warfare of one 'defense' agency against another, where the competitive forces can include using the initiation of force and that generates the need to evolve new defenses against the new forms of attacks, and this becomes a significant aspect of everybody's life.

The minarchy's defense of a specific individual right in a specific instance is just one concrete and will mostly be important only to that individual. But the sum of all such acts over time, combined with the structure that makes that happen, generates the natural expectation that one can take any action that one wants (apart from those that violate rights) and that unleashes human creativity, productivity, and the joy that comes from this way of being. This is the real end goal and purpose of government - the environment that makes possible the joyous expression of our natural creativity and productivity.

There are some people whose mental make-up inclines them to be opposed to minarchy; it isn't that they are opposed to joy, or creativity or productivity, but they instead seem to have an inner drive, maybe a fear, of some unknown terror that will occur if people aren't "controlled" - these people will advocate for some degree of totalitarianism. They have either projected some need to protect people from themselves and want a nanny state, or they want to control people so they can't do anything they consider sinful, or they just fear freedom, or they hate people or life. These are the statists and the many flavors they come in.

Others have a dread of being 'constrained' by law, by order, by any restriction. Even by logic. Or they 'sense' a utopia that won't come about until law is abolished and this vision, despite all logic, rigidly remains a fixed idea. These are the anarchists.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 3/26, 3:30pm)


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Saturday, March 26, 2011 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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Another psychological reason to prefer anarchy is a Nietzschean will-to-power.

It's where you want things your way, no matter what reality has to say about it. One of my relatives is heavy into cars and driving, always having something negative to say about other drivers and about cops. What he wants is his own lane on the road and no interference from the cops. A middle-aged man with the wanton desires of a child.

Ed


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Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 4:36amSanction this postReply
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*#!%ing road pirates (cops take your money for speeding when there are no cars/people around you & other victimless crimes)!

*#!%ing people who drive adjacent to the car next to them when there is plenty of space in front of or behind the car next to them!

Post 19

Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 11:56amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

You know I don't always obey the rules. We drag-raced in Florida (first RoR convention) and I almost beat you! I think we both backed off at either double or triple the posted speed limit. But if I got caught on that fateful day in Florida, I would unhesitatingly put the handcuffs on for myself.

And that is the difference between an anarchist and a minarchist.

:-)

Ed


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