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Post 40

Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
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as Hessen explained, government plays a crucial role in corporations or with regards to corporations and that is the role of protector and not creator

Post 41

Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
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TM:"Corporations, rationally conceived and implemented, cannot be coercive since ... just as in the USSR all sports were state established and maintained. None of this makes music or soccer or track and field coercive endeavors."
 
Yes, but athletes and musicians are responsible for their own actions. The corporation is an eternal, artificial entity, regarded as such by the state and even protected by the state against exploitation by its managers and employees.

Corporations were really invented in Rome, but never amounted to much - except for universities - until the modern era.

The advantage to the corporation over the partnership is expressly its independent existence. Partnerships are limited metaphysically because if one partner dies, the firm must reorganize: you cannot make new, independent decisions for a dead man. (Trusts and estates are an aside.) Being an eternal entity, the corporation outlives its founders.

While we do have limited liability partnerships now those are a recent invention. Perhaps they are more "libertarian" than corporations.

I would like to see a theoretical justification for corporations that is completely independent of the state. I know of none. Perhaps it is just as well. Perhaps it is a proper function of the government - never realized before - to grant individuality to artificial entities.

After corporations will come robots and other artificial intelligences. Capitalism can adapt to this. I am not sure how socialism could. Perhaps it could.

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Edit added:
I believe that for most libertarians who oppose corporations as creations of the state, it is the limitation of liability that is the key issue.  Speaking of athletes, I remember an incident in which a baseball batter lined one into the stands and hit a fan.  He was fined as an individual.  It was not the team. Likewise if in the symphony a tuba player hurls his mouthpiece at the conductor and misses and hits a patron, who is responsible?  With a corporation, the actions of individual employees are not actionable. 

And even more to the point, the corporation cannot be sued for more than its assets, which is not true of a living individual.

And, third, in law, if the police come to your desk and search it without a warrant, it is not your rights that are violated, but the corporation's, again a consequence of living in the shadow of the corporate umbrella.

All of that being as it may, regarding artificial individuals, there is some precedent in common law.  An "emanicpated juvenile' is a minor whom the court has declared responsible for their own contracts.  The child cannot vote, but the child can rent a home, buy a car, etc.  So, there is tradition that would allow a court to declare a robot or computer program legally independent.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 2/14, 10:48am)


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Post 42

Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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I would like to see a theoretical justification for corporations that is completely independent of the state.
It doesn't work that way. What would be needed would be a justification, based upon individual rights, for any laws or any individual actions against the free association of individuals. I don't find the corporate entity such a bugaboo - a married couple is also an artificial creation of the state despite, like a corporation, it is only possible with individuals who freely associate and choose to make a legal commitment of a kind.

The purchase of stock is a form of ownership, but it is a limited ownership and therefore with limited liabilities. When I buy shares of stock, they don't come with the ability for me to make individual decisions on the use of the assets or the actions of the employees - and it is reasonable that I should not responsible for how the assets are used or the employees' actions. It is more sensible to think of a stock purchase as more of a loan that can be resold in a liquid market. If you purchase a house on a mortgage and the company that made that loan to you engaged in questionable actions elsewhere, should plaintiffs in actions against the mortgage company be permitted to collect not just your mortgage payments, but to also come after your savings account? Or, visa versa - should someone who sued you for falling on your property be able to sue the mortgage company and even the people who own stock in the mortgage company - including getting their savings accounts? Money transfers and loans have their natural boundaries.

Michael, you said that individuals aren't responsible for actions taken, and that the corporation is. That isn't strictly so. Responsibility is apportioned appropriately. If an action was taken on behalf of a corporation, and in accordance with corporate policy then the corporation acquires responsibility. But even then, if a court finds that the corporation's policy from which the action arose is not within the law, and it would be reasonable for the actor to know that, the actor can be held responsible. When the tuba player hurled his mouthpiece he was not following corporate policy. And if that sympony orchestra had such a policy it would be possible to go after both the tuba player and the orchestra. I don't know of any individual rights violations that can be commited as an individual but that are not actionable against the individual, but only against the corporation.

Post 43

Friday, March 9, 2012 - 7:17amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

I would like to see a theoretical justification for corporations that is completely independent of the state.

One of many forms of free association for the purpose of commerce, as in, exchange of value for value.

Justified to who? Point me to the Emperor.

regards,
Fred




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